- 3,611
- PNW
- happycorey
Webbers drive at China was better than anything I have seen from Vettel in quite a while.. I think he still has it in HIM to win, but the car is what's holding him back
2011 Formula One DHL Turkish Grand Prix
- Thread starter astrosdude91
- 343 comments
- 23,692 views
- 23,800
- Philippines
The car is built around whatever makes it fastest. A champion should be able to work with whatever car is given him... witness Alonso at McLaren. He wasn't comfortable in a car which suited Lewis better, but he was just as fast when it counted.
That's why I'm generally unsatisfied with Button and Webber. They can't seem to make that last bit of adjustment that separates the wizards from the merely great. Vettel has never had problems being fast... whatever car he is in.
That's why I'm generally unsatisfied with Button and Webber. They can't seem to make that last bit of adjustment that separates the wizards from the merely great. Vettel has never had problems being fast... whatever car he is in.
- 5,379
- Yokohama
- F1fan1
PeterJB
Aren't you forgetting that Mark Webber has been with RBR 2 years longer? Look at Mark V Sebastian for 2009 and 2010 and you'll see why the team may have a preference towards one driver. If they do indeed favour Sebastian, I have a funny feeling it's to do with the way he immediately asserted himself within the team and delivered the results they'd been waiting on.
- 5,603
- England, Warwickshire
- GTP_Sigma
I don't really buy into the notion that the car is completely built around Vettel. If it really was, you wouldn't find Webber keeping quiet about it.
It probably has a lot more to do with Webber not liking the Pirrelli tyres as much as Vettel. You only have to look at Vettel's and Webber's relative tyre wear to realise this.
As for Button, he can be a little bit fussy, but he isn't being comprehensively dominated by his team mate. The stats are currently 3-1 Hamilton in qualifying With an average of (0.261s), and 3-1 Hamilton in terms of racing, there are much bigger margins in other teams.
It probably has a lot more to do with Webber not liking the Pirrelli tyres as much as Vettel. You only have to look at Vettel's and Webber's relative tyre wear to realise this.
As for Button, he can be a little bit fussy, but he isn't being comprehensively dominated by his team mate. The stats are currently 3-1 Hamilton in qualifying With an average of (0.261s), and 3-1 Hamilton in terms of racing, there are much bigger margins in other teams.
- 10,373
- Manchester
- Ardius_
I think Webber has made it clear before that if any parts were being only put on Vettel's car, he would have a very vocal opinion on it. So its unlikely he is getting a different car than Vettel.
I don't know why the team would otherwise want to sabotage Mark.
So the only conclusion I can come to is that Mark has simply been underperforming and either just been too slow or been making mistakes. Its a little odd as Mark has had seasons where he has been very consistent and far ahead of his teammates. But then this is what being at the top can do to you - famous example being Fisichella. Perhaps Mark is more at home in the midfield without the pressure?
I don't know why the team would otherwise want to sabotage Mark.
So the only conclusion I can come to is that Mark has simply been underperforming and either just been too slow or been making mistakes. Its a little odd as Mark has had seasons where he has been very consistent and far ahead of his teammates. But then this is what being at the top can do to you - famous example being Fisichella. Perhaps Mark is more at home in the midfield without the pressure?
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
- 3,035
- Kingston, Jamaica
- pj-gm
- PJwasHere876
Red Bull became Sebastian Vettel racing the minute Vettel won at Monza in 2008. It was never Mark Weber or David Coulthard racing, the team was pretty equal in terms of favouring drivers since the team was established, until Vettel stepped in. He delivered only 3 races in, which is good, but I'm saying that Webber is driving a car and team that's made for Sebastian Vettel. If Mark had no.1 status he would be doing far better. But that's not happening until Vettel moves to Ferrari
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
*facepalm*
For someone who watches the sport a lot, you really don't watch the sport a lot. Vettel's performance at Monza in 2008 might have gotten him the drive at Red Bull Racing, but you have to consider the fact that he was still an unknown quantity at the time. His victory came in some pretty extraordinary circumstances, what with the massive downpour and everyone blowing their tyre choices in qualifying. If all it took was one pole position in wet conditions to seal a top-line drive, Nico Hulkenberg would be racing for Ferrari this year.
- 3,035
- Kingston, Jamaica
- pj-gm
- PJwasHere876
Hulkenberg isn't a valid comparison as he didn't win the race after, in fact only managing 8th. Vettel did win. I know it was in extraordinary circumstances, if the race was dry it wouldve been Hamilton's win, but he drove a consistent race and finished comfortably ahead I believe. And at the time, Red Bull was a midfield team, with even less points than Torro Rosso. I don't think even Vettel thought he was getting a top spot, a better car, yes, but I didn't expect Red Bull to become front runners in 2009.
- 5,603
- England, Warwickshire
- GTP_Sigma
Red Bull became Sebastian Vettel racing the minute Vettel won at Monza in 2008. It was never Mark Weber or David Coulthard racing, the team was pretty equal in terms of favouring drivers since the team was established, until Vettel stepped in. He delivered only 3 races in, which is good, but I'm saying that Webber is driving a car and team that's made for Sebastian Vettel. If Mark had no.1 status he would be doing far better. But that's not happening until Vettel moves to Ferrari
Do you honestly believe that? Vettel may be the future of Red Bull, in the eyes of those is charge, but that doesn't mean Webber is getting short changed currently.
If Webber was getting an inferior car and engineering support to Vettel, he would say something about it. Mark is not one to keep quiet about these things.
- 23,800
- Philippines
Red Bull may favor Vettel, but they're not exactly giving Mark the short end of the stick. They always give both drivers the same choice of parts. The only snag was that ruckus Mark raised over the front wing last year. The front wing he did not want until the point Vettel got it. Then he threw a tantrum. Very entertaining, but it showed how the system works. Both drivers get their pick of the upgrades. If it works for them... great. If not. Not.
The cars are built to go fast. Maybe the balance will suit one driver better than the other, but a team will not compromise a fast car simply to suit a driver who can't keep up. Even when there was talk of Mercedes GP modifying their car's wheelbase to make it easier for Schumacher to drive, it still went faster for Rosberg than Schumi.
The cars are built to go fast. Maybe the balance will suit one driver better than the other, but a team will not compromise a fast car simply to suit a driver who can't keep up. Even when there was talk of Mercedes GP modifying their car's wheelbase to make it easier for Schumacher to drive, it still went faster for Rosberg than Schumi.
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- 10,373
- Manchester
- Ardius_
I'm not sure I believe that "Webber didn't want it" excuse - if a new part is faster, the team will tell the driver they are going to use it. While feedback is obviously used, normally the team/engineers will tell the driver that its worth x tenths so they are going to have to get used to it and work on a setup to help get rid of whatever charateristic the driver isn't comfortable with. Only if it doesn't prove to be that fast would they decide not to use the part (thats where a good development or experienced driver comes in, they will put in good consistent laps even if they are not happy with the balance that comes from a new part).
When I first heard Red Bull come out with that, it sounded like an excuse. It still does now. Even if they were being genuine and simply giving Vettel the part to carry out R&D with a driver more happy with the part, it shows an amazing level of naivety to think it was going to be seen that way by Webber. They never even asked or told Webber what was going on! If there was one thing that Red Bull were really weak at last year, it was their driver management and their publicity.
They really shouldn't be letting their drivers publicly moan about the team, they shouldn't be quickly blaming one driver for racing incidents (before they have even questioned them!) and they shouldn't be stirring the pot even more by switching parts in what looks like favouritism.
In the end though, the general public haven't really taken notice so Red Bull haven't really suffered much bad publicity from it. But perhaps it makes some drivers think twice about going there, especially if the team start to fall back in the pack a bit in future.
When I first heard Red Bull come out with that, it sounded like an excuse. It still does now. Even if they were being genuine and simply giving Vettel the part to carry out R&D with a driver more happy with the part, it shows an amazing level of naivety to think it was going to be seen that way by Webber. They never even asked or told Webber what was going on! If there was one thing that Red Bull were really weak at last year, it was their driver management and their publicity.
They really shouldn't be letting their drivers publicly moan about the team, they shouldn't be quickly blaming one driver for racing incidents (before they have even questioned them!) and they shouldn't be stirring the pot even more by switching parts in what looks like favouritism.
In the end though, the general public haven't really taken notice so Red Bull haven't really suffered much bad publicity from it. But perhaps it makes some drivers think twice about going there, especially if the team start to fall back in the pack a bit in future.
