2012 Formula One United States Grand Prix

Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by astrosdude91, Nov 13, 2012.

  1. ghskilla

    ghskilla

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    Personally, for me, Vettel needs to prove that he can actually win without starting from the front row or overtaking others in the pits, because in my opinion he is just another hot lapper. He also needs to prove that he can create a good overtake on other front runners; fighting for the lead or fighting another great (Button, Hamilton, Alonso [Don't bring up Monza 2011], Raikkonen, etc.). You might be saying, "Vettel doesn't need to prove anything, he's a world champion! He broke records, etc. etc." If Vettel truly is one of the greats, or not another hot lapper, then he should show it in his driving.



    Best video I can find:



    Since there was a comparison to Hakkinen, I feel that this is needed:


    Now here's a compilation of Vettel's overtakes:



    Don't get me wrong, Vettel is an amazing driver, but to be compared to the greats at this moment is premature, because his Red Bull is arguably the fastest in the field. Maybe later on in his career will we see him in the 2nd/3rd best car, and fighting it out for the lead, but as of now I don't think we can call Vettel a great just yet, because he still hasn't proven to be able to keep a fight for the lead, apply pressure, etc.
     
  2. Peasantslayer

    Peasantslayer

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    Well said, I'm sure he will go down as one of the greatest drivers of all time but at the moment Red Bull are just too perfect in everything they do for us to judge him properly. On the topic of the greats, I think the greatest is likely to be someone that has drove in recent years simply because drivers seem much more professional nowadays and they have taken techniques from the greats and tried to develop them. Having said that I doubt the modern drivers have the car control of the top drivers from the past.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
  3. Luminis

    Luminis

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    If the Red Bull was that perfect that it doesn't allow for any comparison between Vettel and the other top drivers, like Alonso, you'd see Webber ranking higher. Sure, Webber might be beyond his prime, but if the car was that good, he'd still be in second place, currently. He's a distant fifth, though. Unless you want to insinuate that Webber is, actually, totally rubbish and carried to a fifth place by an overpowered car.

    I very much agree with what Bram Turismo said, as you can see.

    Also, let's consider one more thing: Red Bull build a damn good car and they've got the budget to get some damn good drivers, as well. Does it actually make sense for a team that can build a car that you guys consider to be far superior to the opposition to get a driver that's actually not all that good and carry him to two WDC titles with that awesome car? Why not get one of the better drivers in the first place and outright destroy anyone else? This would make Webber look entirely pathetic, though.
     
  4. Peasantslayer

    Peasantslayer

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    As RB have said, why would they want to change their driver line up when things are going so well? If someone came in and matched Vettel who knows it might disturb Vettel and cost them a drivers title. He's fifth whilst being past his prime, was he ever one of the best anyway? and he's had numerous failures and accidents this year. There are at least 3 drivers who would be leading the championship in Vettel's car. In the real world you can't start dead last, crash twice and get up to third in a dry race without having the best car on the grid by a mile. Isn't it odd how when Vettel is on pole Webber is usually second? or third if Hamilton pulls something out.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
  5. Centura

    Centura Premium

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    Barcelona '11? Monaco '11? I know that one was cut short, but he was doing fine until the red flag.

    And seriously, who cares? He's so young and it's his only fifth season. If he is one of the "greats", we'll find out later.

    And I don't know if this statistic is true and I don't know where I read it, but Hamilton haven't won outside the first two front rows, either, just like Vettel.

    If you look at Vettel's driving from '09 and '10, you'll notice how far he have come already.
    Even looking at Alonso, he's driving much, much better now than in '10, especially early '10.
     
  6. RX-7_FD3S

    RX-7_FD3S

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    I think he had a better 2011 season, maybe because his car had a bigger gap compares to the other one, but 2011 as been pretty much flawless for Seb, however this year he was a bit worst at the start of the season when the car wasnt working like he want, allowing Webber to get in front of him. I think 2010 and 2012 is pretty much the same for Vettel, 2011 he was awesome tho. And I dont really like him.
     
  7. Centura

    Centura Premium

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    In my opinion, he did way more mistakes in '10 than '12. Crashing in to Webber and Button, for example.
     
  8. Bram Turismo

    Bram Turismo Premium

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    2010.

    But that is not the point of the discussion. The point is, is that Vettel is by no means getting carried by his car. He did the same in 2008 in the Toro Rosso where he finished 31 points ahead of his team mate. He then joins Red Bull alongside Webber, who already had multiple years of experience and out-performed him in 10 from 17 races, having just one full season under his belt and coming just a few points short of becoming a world-champion.

    I am by no means a big fan of Vettel, but to continue saying the Red Bull is carrying him to victory is becoming a really silly thing to hang on to.
     
  9. zippy_the_cat

    zippy_the_cat

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    Have you been watching the same races I have the past two years? In the Pirelli/DRS era cars have come from way back in the grid many times -- as the powers that be intend. That started with Webber last year in China or Malaysia when he finished on the podium after beginning the race buried in like the 17th grid spot. And we got another example in Austin with Massa this past weekend finishing 4th after Ferrari voluntarily dropped him to 11th (and I don't think anyone can seriously argue that Massa would have finished higher than 4th had he started in the grid spot he earned).

    Nowadays, over a race distance, barring unreliability or pit-stop blunders, car/driver combos basically finish in the position their speed entitles them to. Because of DRS it's impossible for a slower car to keep a faster one behind like Petrov did with Alonso at Abu Dhabi in 2010.

    On the broader is-it-the-car-or-is-it-Vettel issue, clearly the RBs 5 through 8 have been plenty fast. But this year McLaren more often than not has had the faster car only to shoot itself in the foot through errors of various kinds. Vettel did plenty of damage mitigation in the early and middle parts of the season, of the sort Alonso is getting such widespread praise for. On the evidence of their careers to date, I'd say Vettel is significantly less mistake-prone than Hamilton and that the two of them barring mistakes are about equally as fast. Alonso and Raikkonen are probably more "complete" drivers than either Vettel or Hamilton but probably can't quite match their speed.
     
  10. RodrigoDLL

    RodrigoDLL

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    Your math sucks!
     
  11. The Outlaw

    The Outlaw Premium

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    Actually I don't really have an issue with most of what you said, as your points were fairly reasonable :tup: Although the last paragraph was a bit hard to interpret: "People will say 'ahh but Alonso said he was racing Adrian Newey rather than Vettel', so why is it that he isn't racing Webber as well as Vettel? Reliability? Both have had roughly the same problems. It has been down to the fact that Vettel is quick and is managing to stay out of mid field traffic meaning less chances of incidents. So at the moment it is clear that Red Bull possibly just has the edge over McLaren and Ferrari, but the reason Vettel is up there is because he is clearly quicker than the rest at most Grand Prix."


    I'd just suggest that you take the time to properly direct your answers (because your counter argument really made little sense without the proper context), particularly when it's a bit brash in tone ("woah, woah, woah", "And in my opinion what Ferrari did today with the grid was purely cheating in sheer desperation"...which seemed a rather unncessary throw in comment.)

    I think it's reasonable to say the car (and team behind him) has been the number 1 reason for his success, as it likely has made the difference in being able to often dominate against drivers the caliber of Hamilton and Alonso in particular. This doesn't mean Vettel isn't as good as those other 2 in my eyes, it just means the car/team behind him has likely been the main ingredient/differentiater in being able to achieve 2 straight WDC against his main opponents, and what is looking to be a 3rd straight.

    For me, it's hard not to put Vettel up there with the likes of Alonso and Hamilton though (because I do). His raw speed is bloddy impressive, as well as his consistancy, passion and competitiveness. I think he still needs some time and more experience (understandbly so) to truly prove himself as being the complete package though. Although for me, to a good degree his raw speed and consistancy do a lot to overshadow some of his weaknesses (overtaking and coolness when things don't go right on track), especially when he has a very fast car and having to fight with other cars is mostly a non issue.

    Regarding Webber- Ever since the Pirelli's were introduced he hasn't really looked like a legitamate WDC contender, particularly once Red Bull seem to get their car to front of the grid having dialed in the exhaust blowing technology...which always seems to play heavily to Vettel's favor for whatever reason (which is what has always puzzled me to some degree).

    I don't see how anyone can genuinely place Webber up there (same for Massa) with the best to begin with, given how inconsistant he can be and his yellow school bus like starts which have become quite common (which in itself is enough for me to not consider him as a top shelf drivers :lol:). So asking why Webber isn't doing better if the car is so good is quite easy to answer, at least in my eyes.


    Well I'd say as a Championship contender he is pretty rubbish anymore, particuarly with this generation of tire.

    Between his often incredibly poor starts, inconsistant pace, and questionable motivation at times, it's easy to see how he is far from being in contention atm. He also seems to be plauged with a bit more glitches (particularly KERS) than Vettel which hasn't helped his cause, as well as having a team which seems much more focused on the other driver (much like Alonso/Massa @ Ferrari), which likely has meant he has seen less support and development torward his liking.

    I haven't really read this thread thoroughly, but would you mind pointing out where this has been said?

    For me, Sebastian on the whole has driven superbly over the past couple of years, but I feel the majority of his success has boiled down to having the superior package (car and team behind him), and if the other teams were able to develop cars equal to what Red Bull has managed while having such stellar race management/and general reliability, I think it would have been much more difficult for him to even have half the success (whether poles, wins, or WDC's) he's seen since 2011.

    It's quite important to take into consideration other factors that might lead to this though. Vettel has spent most of his carreer thus far at the very front of the grid (or there abouts) when fighting for Championships, which lends itself to being involved in less sketchy mid pack battles or when fighting hard for on track positions. On the other hand, Hamilton has often not had the machinery to avoid having to get into these mid pack fights, which has often led to many of the mistakes we saw particularly last year (as he was beggining to look quite desperate/uneasy due to the RBR/Vettel steam rolling that was taking place).

    I think it's fair to say that when Vettel has had to fight heavily with other cars (which we saw just a couple of races ago at Abu Dhabi) he is just as prone to making mistakes, at least from what I've seen. And with that said, IMO a lot of the mistakes he's made have left me scratching my head (thinking that he still has a lot to prove to be recognized as an instinctively efficient/clean overtaker...which he may be something he needs to show throughout a full season in future years).
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2012
  12. JohnBM01

    JohnBM01 Premium

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    After watching the re-air of the race on Speed Channel, I was tremendously impressed with how this USGP weekend ended up. Nothing short of fabulous- from the ceremonies to the actual race, I was very impressed with how everything ended up. Excellent circuit and great racing. It's rare I show up in F1 threads, but I HAVE to show my appreciation for this race and everything about it.
     
  13. zippy_the_cat

    zippy_the_cat

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    In discussing Hamilton's mistakes I was thinking more of his throwing away a points lead in 2010 by twice bashing into Webber (Monza and Singapore). Both were unforced errors of the highest degree. China 2007 would fall into that category as well. Since Turkey 2010 I can't think of Vettel making a comparable error (Spa 2010 doesn't quite qualify, as track conditions and the car's aero were contributing factors). Lewis' 2011 was one long compendium of pain and yes, a lot of it was down to being down the grid, but the car was never so poor that he should have been that far down the grid. To date we haven't seen Vettel have a comparable season-long brain fade.
     
  14. Bram Turismo

    Bram Turismo Premium

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    It hasn't. But that's impression most people give off when saying that Vettel still hasn't fully proved himself until he's started from the back and fought his way back up the grid. I'm sorry, but that's rubbish.
     
  15. Luminis

    Luminis

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    Would it be appropriate to say that Hamilton was carried to his title by his car? :sly:
     
  16. Peasantslayer

    Peasantslayer

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    Judging by the constructor's, no.
     
  17. zippy_the_cat

    zippy_the_cat

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    You jest, but no. He and Vettel clearly have a turn of speed shared by no one else on the grid save perhaps Maldonado. The on-boards when any of those gentlemen hook one up in qualifying are palpably different to even front-runners like Alonso, Webber, Button and Raikkonen. Hamilton's made errors that cost him big in 2007, 2010, 2011 and even this year (Valencia), but the law of averages says someone that fast should eventually see a reward for it.

    (By the way, presuming Bottas signs on, Williams may well be the most 2013's most intriguing team.)
     
  18. hornet_burnout

    hornet_burnout

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    Thanks for the video compilation :tup:

    Essentially agree with you.

    Overcoming difficulties, struggling to get results makes you a fighter, a "winner" even if you finish second or barely at all. Makes you find strength, speed, endurance where you thought there wasn't any more. Makes you smarter, a better planer, essentially, more mature. A man.

    Getting all the best "toys" keeps you a spoiled brat.
    (and don't tell me this year he struggled, he just waited and daddy Newey fixed it)

    I think hot-lapper/pass-in-the-pits-GP2 Pastor has grown far more this year than "yabadaba-doo" Vettel...

    And no, for he 100th time I'm not a Vettel hater, just think he needs to grow.

    Point being, maybe he can't under the "protection", guidance, hardware and team support he has.

    Still a fast driver. But he can be so much more...
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2012