2012 Grand Premio Petrobras do Brasil

[Samus]

You state this as if it is some well known fact lol

Regardless, Massa has proven to be a real team player and honorable guy Now I just hope he can fight for the WDC next year alongside Alonso.

Massa outqualified Alonso at both races = fact
Massa only finished just behind Alonso despite starting much further behind in Austin = fact
Massa had to let Alonso past in Brasil at least twice = fact

Massa had the advantage over Alonso these last two races, most people can see that.

 

[BHRxRacer]

@homeforsummer

Thank you.

I find it funny Ferrari nor Williams have kicked up any fuss about that incident not being investigated yet the internet is still raging.

I don't think it's a good idea to get into that.

"No further action taken"

Exactly.

 

[The Outlaw]

Massa outqualified Alonso at both races = fact
Massa only finished just behind Alonso despite starting much further behind in Austin = fact
Massa had to let Alonso past in Brasil at least twice = fact

Massa had the advantage over Alonso these last two races, most people can see that.

Once again, you seem to see only what you want to see

Care to prove this seemingly well known fact (in bold) that you missed?

Massa was the best driver on Interlagos and at the states but no one at Ferrari will acknowledge that not even Alonso, even less so most viewers. Best "teamplay" I've seen in F1 in years.

 

[Samus]

Yes, I'm seeing facts.

Has anyone at Ferrari acknowledged that? If not, then it's true. Or are you going to try and suggest Massa was in fact not better that Alonso the last two races?

 

[sems4arsenal]

Massa Should work on his Qualifying next season ,race pace in the second half of the season has been up there with anyone.

 

[Luminis]

"No further action taken"

I'm just pointing out, that maybe the stewards weren't doing their job consistently...

(The bolded part): Maybe not, but i feel there still should have been an investigation, to do so would've shown consistency regardless of the result.

This might stem from me being a lazy person, but if the inevitable reulst was to take no further action, what's the point? Just to appease the audience, when even teams involved didn't care?

 

[Nessy]

This might stem from me being a lazy person, but if the inevitable reulst was to take no further action, what's the point? Just to appease the audience, when even teams involved didn't care?

In that case, you may as well do away with all stewarding for every race.... The point is, there are racing rules, nothing's really inevitable, that's why stewards discuss the investigation: to decide whether a ruling should be given (or not) and to whom... or decide whether both parties (or more) are equal in blame and no further action is taken.

I know you see it as red tape, but it's there for a purpose.

 

[The Outlaw]

Yes, I'm seeing facts.

Has anyone at Ferrari acknowledged that? If not, then it's true. Or are you going to try and suggest Massa was in fact not better that Alonso the last two races?

BS...just because you haven't run into a media outlet where Ferrari has publicly acknowledged Felipe's superior performance (although why would they make such a point of comparing Felipe to Alonso to begn with) a day after the GP, doesn't at all make that statement true.

The fact is, we simply dont know, especially when we don't have a 24hr video camera strapped to every member of Scuderia Ferrari (including Alonso/Massa) to watch/listen to their interactions Thus we don't go out on a limb (in avens case) and say Ferrari, Alonso, and many viewers don't acknowledge his performance (when plenty of people in this thread alone have done so).

Edit: Just found a article from today where Luca gives due credit to Felipe 👍 Of course it's not the "Massa shat on Alonso" that some of you hope for...but that's not really being reasonable or healthy for the team

Di Montezemolo 'proud' of FerrariMonday 26th November 2012

Despite a fourth season without a title, Luca di Montezemolo insists he's "proud" of his Ferrari team.

Ferrari ended their season on a high note as Fernando Alonso and Felipe Massa secured the team's first double podium of the campaign.

That, though, was not enough to stop Red Bull from securing the Championship double.

With Sebastian Vettel bringing his car home in sixth place in Brazil, he won the World title by three points ahead of Alonso while Ferrari were second to Red Bull in the Constructors' Championship.

"I am proud of my team," di Montezemolo told the team's website.

"We fought all the way to the bitter end, getting both our drivers onto the podium for the final race of the season.

"When you miss out on the title by the smallest of margins, naturally there is some regret.

"I want to congratulate Fernando on what he has done this year: his season has been simply fantastic.

"Felipe drove very well in the second half of the season and demonstrated once again that he is a real team player.

"I also want to thank Stefano Domenicali and all his colleagues for the work they have done, day after day, to produce a car that, in terms of reliability, was perfect and for what they achieved on track in terms of strategy and the work in the garage."

But with 2012 now a thing of the past, di Montezemolo says Ferrari must "immediately concentrate on next season, because, right from the start, we must have a car that is competitive at the highest level."

 

[Samus]

Pedantic, much? All he said is Ferrari won't acknowledge that Massa was better the last two races, which they won't.

 

[Famine]

This might stem from me being a lazy person, but if the inevitable reulst was to take no further action, what's the point?

It's their job.

To not even bother to investigate a driver-driver collision through a deliberate action (no loss of control) that involved three cars, two of which were forced to retire on the spot, makes a mockery of them even being there.

It's never inevitable until after the investigation.

 

[The Outlaw]

Pedantic, much? All he said is Ferrari won't acknowledge that Massa was better the last two races, which they won't.

Pedantic? In what other team is it neccesary for the team (particularly in management) to make such a point of one driver out performing another?

Edit: And what you're saying is STILL not a valid fact...but since you know every single thing that goes on in the world who am I to argue.

 

[BlacqueJacques]

An exciting F1 season; glad to take a break from the criticisms back and forth taking place on this thread

 

[Luminis]

It's their job.

I suppose they're not the only ones not doing their job right all the time.

I just don't think it's the kind of huge scandal as some seem to think it is. Especially because I think that the investigation wouldn't have yielded much of a result, anyways. And, as I said, I find it peculiar that it doesn't seem to be a big deal to the ones involved but it gets talked up like some sort of huge issue on here.

Dunno, but I doubt that the reaction to the stewards not investigating this incident would be anywhere near as severe if the WDC wasn't at stake throughout the race.

All in all, I think it's blown out of proportion.

 

[Famine]

I suppose they're not the only ones not doing their job right all the time.

it's a good job they're not doing their job right in the full view of hundreds of millions with billions of dollars at stake depending on the outcome...

I just don't think it's the kind of huge scandal as some seem to think it is.

The purpose of stewards is to enforce rules and ensure driver safety.

Driver. Safety.

Making a bad decision, as they did with Hulkenberg, is one thing. Failing to even investigate - as they have done with every driver-driver collision where a car has retired (and quite a few where no car has retired) in the last 20 years - is... scandallous, yes.

When they stop considering driver safety, we'll end up with another Ratzenberger/Senna weekend. I don't want to see that ever again - nor should anyone.

Especially because I think that the investigation wouldn't have yielded much of a result, anyways.

What the result of the investigation would have been is moot speculation. There wasn't an investigation. This remains to be the problem.

 

[Hun200kmh]

I guess when we are talking Ferrari different rules apply. And Felipe Massa is a good example of it.

Either he has lost it, should be sacked but isn't because Ferrari is evil and likes to have one ace and one servant.

Or he is in fact top material and should be praised and EXPLICITELY compared to his own team mate in the latest two GPs.

Right ... now onto what I think. I'm very satisfied with how Ferrari treated and respected Felipe Massa this year. They kept him when most people (fans and haters) were already "past it" and only trying to know who would be the new Ferrari driver.

I am also glad that Felipe has shown the world that Ferrari made the right decision. I congratulate both the team and the driver.

Now, about "recognition" of what Felipe did, both on and off the track, I will quote Alonso in the post-race press conference:

I was constantly updated with the positions of our rivals. At the beginning of the race for the Constructors' Championship and also for the Drivers' Championship. After Hamilton retired the Constructors' Championship was a little easier for us so we were concentrating the Drivers' Championship. Nothing really to say, it's good to have some information because sometimes you don't know if you're fast enough or you are too slow and when you see that the pace is OK and your rivals are fighting at the back, there is some extra motivation. And about Felipe for sure it was a very, very good second part of the year with some podiums and some very good performance. If I found myself fighting for the World Championship at the last race it's also thanks to the teamwork, and when we say teamwork it's engineers, we say people in Maranello, we say sponsors and we say the drivers. There are a lot of tests that have been done in the simulator with our test drivers. There is a lot of test that Felipe was doing in the simulator also in the summer and there is the Friday practice that without a team-mate… you can share the programme and you can trust the results… it's impossible sometimes to work. Maximum trust, maximum confidence in Felipe's work every time in the races, in the practice, in the simulator, we are a team. We are united. And in the last two races, three races, there was also some help in the race itself in terms of positions gained etcetera. So this is also due to the position in the championship that Felipe had no more options and the team decide this. As I said, fantastic team and thanks to everybody, we were in this situation.

 

[homeforsummer]

They kept him when most people (fans and haters) were already "past it" and only trying to know who would be the new Ferrari driver.

I'm quite happy to admit that I was one of those people.

Massa hit the lowest of the low in my estimation last year. His contacts with Hamilton, his inexplicable useless driving (smashing the same corner of his suspension, on the same kerb, in two different sessions, at the same grand prix was particularly hilarious), and his general lack of pace all had me - and several others, I expect - wondering what on earth he was doing there.

Someone being the team whipping boy ready to dive out the way when required is one thing, but being half a grid behind your teammate at most races was harming Ferrari.

But...

In the latter half of this year at least, someone must have shoved a rocket up his bottom. Whether it was the threat of being sacked or whether he's had some words of encouragement, something has really motivated him and he's been near enough the same pace as Alonso recently. I still don't think he's quite there over a race distance, but he's certainly close enough to have made a big difference to Ferrari.

I don't take back what I said about him - he genuinely was crap for quite a while, and based on those performances he really shouldn't have been in F1 - but I think he's redeemed himself somewhat.

 

[Rossell2]

Couldn't have summed it better HFS that's exactly how I felt. I kept feeling really bad going "Felipe mate, I think its time to give it up" but I really wanted him to succeed because of that horror smash of his. Its good to see him doing better, not WDC material like 2008 but getting better.

 

[bluemoon_19]

Seriously?

Taking it like a man, facing everyone and everything standing there, as a rock, is a broken man?

If it had been the other way round, I'm pretty sure a tantrum would be in order, or at least some crying, screaming and fingering.

If you saw the whole thing in video. He was standing like for about 10 seconds

 

[Samus]

Pedantic? In what other team is it neccesary for the team (particularly in management) to make such a point of one driver out performing another?

Edit: And what you're saying is STILL not a valid fact...but since you know every single thing that goes on in the world who am I to argue.

Well it's not neccesary no but that doesn't mean he was wrong to say they won't admit it. They won't. Neither will Fernando even though plenty of drivers admit to being outdone by their team mate at times.

Anyway you clearly decided to pick up on the least important part of that statement which was that Massa was faster. Have you agreed with this yet? Because whether Ferrari admit that or not wasn't really the main point.

 

[Ardius]

Making a bad decision, as they did with Hulkenberg, is one thing. Failing to even investigate - as they have done with every driver-driver collision where a car has retired (and quite a few where no car has retired) in the last 20 years - is... scandallous, yes.

What the result of the investigation would have been is moot speculation. There wasn't an investigation. This remains to be the problem.

Interestingly, on the FIA website, there are only two steward reports published "No. 35" and "No. 38".
35 is De La Rosa's gearbox penalty and 38 is the collision between Hulkenburg and Hamilton.
This suggests there were 2 decisions between the start of the race and Hulkenburg's contact.

I think its fair to assume they did investigate the incident, but chose not to make that public and/or race control/TV directors were too busy covering the crazy amount of action in that race to publish it.

I would be surprised if they never even investigated the incident at all.

 

[Famine]

I hope this is the case - but as things stand, no-one outside the four of them know a thing, right down to whether they even looked at it or not.

I wonder if the other thing was his car shedding floor at Kobayashi's face...

 

[homeforsummer]

I would be surprised if they never even investigated the incident at all.

I would too. But in the interests of transparency, it's always good from a fan's perspective to know whether they've looked into something or not. They're usually fairly good at that, even if the decisions are sometimes ridiculous (like Hulk's penalty, for instance).

 

[The Outlaw]

Well it's not neccesary no but that doesn't mean he was wrong to say they won't admit it. They won't. Neither will Fernando even though plenty of drivers admit to being outdone by their team mate at times..

See this is the problem...as I've alluded to before, you're trying to use assumption to prove something as fact, which will only continue to lead you down a dead end road. Not only that, but you guys are using very limited resources (media outlets at the very most?) in the grand scheme of things to try and prove your point - a point which seems to be a bit of a low blow to be honest...and why I'm a bit ticked off, especially when you often try to come off as being so fair and nuetral

Anyway you clearly decided to pick up on the least important part of that statement which was that Massa was faster. Have you agreed with this yet? Because whether Ferrari admit that or not wasn't really the main point.

First of all, I take it you're refering to "that statement" as in aven's original post?

Please...that was the last thing I was trying to bring to light! Because I'd be an idiot to deny that Massa was faster than Alonso in the last 2 GP. I'd suggest you go back and read the text that I originally snipped from aven's post.

Regardless of what the "main point" was, the bottom line is that it (that Ferrari won't acknowledge Massa's superior pace in the last 2 GP's) was said, meaning it should be adressed (particularly being that it's baseless and comes off as being a bit of flame bate).

Amazing how useless and redundent these arguments can become

I guess when we are talking Ferrari different rules apply. And Felipe Massa is a good example of it.

Either he has lost it, should be sacked but isn't because Ferrari is evil and likes to have one ace and one servant.

Or he is in fact top material and should be praised and EXPLICITELY compared to his own team mate in the latest two GPs.

Right ... now onto what I think. I'm very satisfied with how Ferrari treated and respected Felipe Massa this year. They kept him when most people (fans and haters) were already "past it" and only trying to know who would be the new Ferrari driver.

I am also glad that Felipe has shown the world that Ferrari made the right decision. I congratulate both the team and the driver.

Now, about "recognition" of what Felipe did, both on and off the track, I will quote Alonso in the post-race press conference:

Fernando Alonso:
I was constantly updated with the positions of our rivals. At the beginning of the race for the Constructors' Championship and also for the Drivers' Championship. After Hamilton retired the Constructors' Championship was a little easier for us so we were concentrating the Drivers' Championship. Nothing really to say, it's good to have some information because sometimes you don't know if you're fast enough or you are too slow and when you see that the pace is OK and your rivals are fighting at the back, there is some extra motivation. And about Felipe for sure it was a very, very good second part of the year with some podiums and some very good performance. If I found myself fighting for the World Championship at the last race it's also thanks to the teamwork, and when we say teamwork it's engineers, we say people in Maranello, we say sponsors and we say the drivers. There are a lot of tests that have been done in the simulator with our test drivers. There is a lot of test that Felipe was doing in the simulator also in the summer and there is the Friday practice that without a team-mate… you can share the programme and you can trust the results… it's impossible sometimes to work. Maximum trust, maximum confidence in Felipe's work every time in the races, in the practice, in the simulator, we are a team. We are united. And in the last two races, three races, there was also some help in the race itself in terms of positions gained etcetera. So this is also due to the position in the championship that Felipe had no more options and the team decide this. As I said, fantastic team and thanks to everybody, we were in this situation.

Nice, reasonable post mate

 

[Luminis]

it's a good job they're not doing their job right in the full view of hundreds of millions with billions of dollars at stake depending on the outcome...



The purpose of stewards is to enforce rules and ensure driver safety.

Driver. Safety.

Making a bad decision, as they did with Hulkenberg, is one thing. Failing to even investigate - as they have done with every driver-driver collision where a car has retired (and quite a few where no car has retired) in the last 20 years - is... scandallous, yes.

When they stop considering driver safety, we'll end up with another Ratzenberger/Senna weekend. I don't want to see that ever again - nor should anyone.



What the result of the investigation would have been is moot speculation. There wasn't an investigation. This remains to be the problem.

I guess you're right. Not enforcing driver safety is something that shouldn't happen and I didn't think about the consequences that could possibly come from that. I've been to focused on the penalty side of things and have gotten a bit too defensive.

My apologies!

 

[CheersMate]

Does anybody have a video of Räikkönen taking the "shortcut" back in 2001?

 

[avens]

My point was to highlight Massa's performance more than what Di Montezemolo or Briatore's thong will think about it.

That's because I literally facepalmed after reading posts saying Massa underperformed (7.0 grades and others) and that Webber had a good race (especially this one). I don't care about being wrong on team principal's opinions, but the actual racing was the complete opposite of what some GTP users posted while most of the rest didn't consider those 2 crucial points.

F1 is a sport that can only be appreciated by the trained eye. For the rest it's bumper cars.

edit: Though it is still funny that Ferrari always puts Alonso above Massa. I could bet money on that they will never publicly acknowledge Massa was objectively superior than Alonso on Texas and Interlagos.

 

[Akira AC]

edit: Though it is still funny that Ferrari always puts Alonso above Massa. I could bet money on that they will never publicly acknowledge Massa was objectively superior than Alonso on Texas and Interlagos.

They wont, most of my gripes with Alonso have been exactly that.

I know is inherently Ferrari's fault, but when people come and say "the car didn't perform well, Alonso was better, bla bla bla", it kinda sucks, specially for Massa as his talent go unacknowledged. Alonso did not perform as he was asked and expected to, people saw him as a strong contender for the title, yet he never showed such skills, even with a car that was indeed competitive (Massa clearly showed us that over the last few races).

And I agree, Webber was all over the place in Interlagos, he was having a Strong race in Austin until he had to retire, but despite this, is nice to see that at least Red Bull/McLaren let their drivers compete with each other, at some point Interlagos Webber let Vettel pass blatantly, but they still let them compete with each other when the situation comes, just as McLaren would, and both of them don't let the First driver-second driver gap go too far, which is pretty good for both drivers morale. Ferrari on the other hand ...

 

[Samus]

See this is the problem...as I've alluded to before, you're trying to use assumption to prove something as fact, which will only continue to lead you down a dead end road. Not only that, but you guys are using very limited resources (media outlets at the very most?) in the grand scheme of things to try and prove your point - a point which seems to be a bit of a low blow to be honest...and why I'm a bit ticked off, especially when you often try to come off as being so fair and nuetral



First of all, I take it you're refering to "that statement" as in aven's original post?

Please...that was the last thing I was trying to bring to light! Because I'd be an idiot to deny that Massa was faster than Alonso in the last 2 GP. I'd suggest you go back and read the text that I originally snipped from aven's post.

Regardless of what the "main point" was, the bottom line is that it (that Ferrari won't acknowledge Massa's superior pace in the last 2 GP's) was said, meaning it should be adressed (particularly being that it's baseless and comes off as being a bit of flame bate).

Amazing how useless and redundent these arguments can become



Nice, reasonable post mate

I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make, of course we're going to use the media regarding that point, that was his entire point, Ferrari or Fernando will not publicly state that Massa was the better driver in the last two races. . Whether he or you thinks they should is irrelevant and of course technically that statement can't be a fact until the end of eternity, there is always time for them to admit it. But he doesn't think they will. Simple as that

But again I'm still not really sure why you decided to pick up on that comment in the first place.

 

[Ivan171]

...

edit: Though it is still funny that Ferrari always puts Alonso above Massa. I could bet money on that they will never publicly acknowledge Massa was objectively superior than Alonso on Texas and Interlagos.

I don't know if you guys are talking specifically about the last 2 races but,
Massa was faster than Alonso in Korea too.

 

[avens]

The only parts I watched of Korea were the artificial grass incident and Psy waving the checkered flag. I learned my lesson from previous years.