2013 Formula 1 Grand Prix du Canada

[Danny]

So? Oh, let's play the age card now?

Okay.

Firstly I have no idea what you're talking about, and a sneaking suspicion that neither do you.

Nor half the brilliant, racing drives Schuey did either.

My point is that Michael Schumacher won his first race at the age of 21. So did Sebastian Vettel. MSC then went on to race for another 20+ years. The fact that you're whining that Vettel hasn't had half the race performances Michael Schumacher has isn't surprising since he's had less than half the races.

You're whining about the fact that Sebastian Vettel hasn't accomplished more in 7 years than Michael Schumacher did in 25.

 

[JGreens]

Firstly I have no idea what you're talking about, and a sneaking suspicion that neither do you.

Actually, I do. You're trying to say that because Vettel hasn't had a lengthy career he's excused from having a catalog of decent/memorable drives. I disagree. Lewis's career is roughly equal in length and yet, Lewis has had memorable drives and performances. That's why Lewis is better than Vettel, he's proved he's more than just a driver in a fast car (And Hamilton hasn't always been gifted perfect winning cars either) and until Vettel proves otherwise, his success is solely down to Newey.

The fact that you're whining that Vettel hasn't had half the race performances Michael Schumacher has isn't surprising since he's had less than half the races.

Whining? Nope stating facts. My original opinion was that Schumacher doesn't deserve all this anger and hate, unlike Vettel who certainly does deserve to be grilled until he proves one way or the other if he's more than just Newey designs and Horner hushed deals.

 

[SpeedyishOlly]

Actually, I do. You're trying to say that because Vettel hasn't had a lengthy career he's excused from having a catalog of decent/memorable drives. I disagree. Lewis's career is roughly equal in length and yet, Lewis has had memorable drives and performances. That's why Lewis is better than Vettel, he's proved he's more than just a driver in a fast car (And Hamilton hasn't always been gifted perfect winning cars either) and until Vettel proves otherwise, his success is solely down to Newey.

Ok, the only time Vettel has had a much less competitive car was with Toro Rosso.

The results...... Well Vettel outperformed his team-mate in every race except the ones he retired from (accidents caused by other drivers, an engine failure) Most races he outperformed his team-mate by far. He also won a race.
Hamilton has indeed performed well in every season of his career, but his car was never that bad. Vettel has also consistently outperformed Webber.

 

[JGreens]

Hamilton has indeed performed well in every season of his career, but his car was never that bad. Vettel has also consistently outperformed Webber.

I present the MP4-24, a car so disastrously bad that Mclaren only, only just scraped into 3rd for WCC after literally almost a complete rebuild for the later races...

...but what's more amusing is that the fact Vettel's only glories lie with beating his teammate, something, oh, say, what Bianchi is doing against Chilton.

 

[f40]

I present the MP4-24, a car so disastrously bad that Mclaren only, only just scraped into 3rd for WCC after literally almost a complete rebuild for the later races...

3rd in the WCC? Hardly a disastrously bad car.

...but what's more amusing is that the fact Vettel's only glories lie with beating his teammate, something, oh, say, what Bianchi is doing against Chilton.

You're arguing that beating one's teammate is the only glory in winning more races than all but 5 drivers in F1 history?

 

[PeterJB]

Actually, I do. You're trying to say that because Vettel hasn't had a lengthy career he's excused from having a catalog of decent/memorable drives. I disagree. Lewis's career is roughly equal in length and yet, Lewis has had memorable drives and performances. That's why Lewis is better than Vettel, he's proved he's more than just a driver in a fast car (And Hamilton hasn't always been gifted perfect winning cars either) and until Vettel proves otherwise, his success is solely down to Newey.

Lewis has won races and finished no lower than 5th overall in every season of his career so far. Save for this year, though his team mate has shown that the car is capable of winning races. In 2009 he had, at best 8 races in a non-front-running car. From Silverstone onwards he made Q3 at every race except Spa and Interlagos (which was in the pouring rain), got pole position at 4 of those races, and won 2 of them. Kovalainen also 6 points finishes in a row.

Whining? Nope stating facts. My original opinion was that Schumacher doesn't deserve all this anger and hate, unlike Vettel who certainly does deserve to be grilled until he proves one way or the other if he's more than just Newey designs and Horner hushed deals.

Schumacher's speed in his prime was mind-blowing,you couldn't help but stare in awe at it, but he is also a cheater. His move on Villeneuve cost him a whole season. His move on Hill in '94 (which is debatable as being deliberate) gave him his first title. Blocking the road at Monaco '06 got him sent to the back of the grid, he tried to drive Barrichello into the wall at Hungary 2010, and did a similar maneuver to Derek Warwick at the '91 430km of Nuerburgring.

 

[niky]

Actually, I do. You're trying to say that because Vettel hasn't had a lengthy career he's excused from having a catalog of decent/memorable drives. I disagree. Lewis's career is roughly equal in length and yet, Lewis has had memorable drives and performances. That's why Lewis is better than Vettel, he's proved he's more than just a driver in a fast car (And Hamilton hasn't always been gifted perfect winning cars either) and until Vettel proves otherwise, his success is solely down to Newey.

Whining? Nope stating facts. My original opinion was that Schumacher doesn't deserve all this anger and hate, unlike Vettel who certainly does deserve to be grilled until he proves one way or the other if he's more than just Newey designs and Horner hushed deals.

Define memorable. Cutting up through the field in several races is not memorable? Outqualifying the clearly dominant Hamilton... in the rain, no less... is not memorable? Holding off Nico Rosberg for over a dozen laps by laying down fastest sector times... with a broken exhaust... isn't memorable? Doing Alonso-esque qualifying laps, completely smashing his team-mate, isn't memorable?

And Alonso IS an amazing qualifier. If you rank Hamilton, note that the two, in their one season together in McLaren, split their qualifying battle straight down the middle. After they separated, they dominated qualifying in their respective teams.

Your opinions wouldn't be so roundly debated if they were based on fact, and you're suggesting that the mere act of winning championships in the fastest car, which Schumacher, Senna and most of the greats have done, is more acceptable grounds for hating someone than trying to shove another driver into the wall.

Wonderful. By that logic, Jenson Button desrves more hate than Romain Grosjean, right?

 

[JGreens]

Define memorable. Cutting up through the field in several races is not memorable? Outqualifying the clearly dominant Hamilton... in the rain, no less... is not memorable? Holding off Nico Rosberg for over a dozen laps by laying down fastest sector times... with a broken exhaust... isn't memorable? Doing Alonso-esque qualifying laps, completely smashing his team-mate, isn't memorable?

Nope. I can't even remember which races in what years those claimed events happened. Everyone can pull out Schumacher moments like snap, but Vettel? Blank.

in their one season together in McLaren

And since? Alonso is poor in qualifying, he's clearly a race driver.

trying to shove another driver into the wall.

He got penalized for that. Move on.

Wonderful. By that logic, Jenson Button desrves more hate than Romain Grosjean, right?

For what? Jenson's earnt his stripes. Canada '11 clearly proved that.

 

[PeterJB]

Nope. I can't even remember which races in what years those claimed events happened.

Monza 2008, Brazil 2009, Bahrain 2010, China 2010, Silverstone 2010, Monza 2011, Belgium 2012, Abu Dhabi 2012, Brazil 2012, to name a few.

Everyone can pull out Schumacher moments like snap, but Vettel? Blank.

But the vast majority of drivers have not. More than half of all Formula 1 drivers (Which is in excess of 1000) have done less than 10 races, only 105 have ever won a race.

Schumacher's trademark was lights-to-flag victory, so is Vettel's. I fail to see the difference, other than Vettel not deliberately crashing into other drivers.

He got penalized for that. Move on.

What difference does that make? Other than showing that it was an illegal and unsporting maneuver.

 

[niky]

Nope. I can't even remember which races in what years those claimed events happened. Everyone can pull out Schumacher moments like snap, but Vettel? Blank.

Wow. You can pull Schumacher moments like snap, despite not having watched him, as you claimed several posts ago?

And since? Alonso is poor in qualifying, he's clearly a race driver.

So you say Hamilton is a great qualifier, but when Alonso beats him half the time, Alonso is a poor qualifier? Logic, please?

He got penalized for that. Move on.

I'm still waiting for an explanation of how Vettel's being in a dominant car and acting a bit cheeky about it is worse than Michael's being in a dominant car, acting cheeky about it, and cheating.

Seriously. How is it worse? Unless you can answer that, then your argument is worthless.

Wow, Vettel has a dominant car. So did every other multiple world champion, move on.

For what? Jenson's earnt his stripes. Canada '11 clearly proved that.

Let's turn the tables on you: Vettel's earned his stripes. Italy '08 clearly proved that.

-

You can simply say "I hate Vettel's smug face for personal reasons" and leave it at that. Trying to come up with arguments as to why he's objectively more despicable than someone like Schumacher is just futile.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I have no problem with people booing, as long as it doesn't escalate into actual insults or throwing things on the track like what happened at Talladega in 2007(not sure if that type of incident has happened in F1).



Things like that make me embarrassed to be a racing fan of any series.

As for the race, even though Vettel dominated it was still a good race. Really hoping McLaren can salvage something from '13 but the chances aren't looking good.

Exactly what I mean, boo but don't physically harm or try to.

 

[JGreens]

Monza 2008, Brazil 2009, Bahrain 2010, China 2010, Silverstone 2010, Monza 2011, Belgium 2012, Abu Dhabi 2012, Brazil 2012, to name a few.

Still can't remember anything particularly memorable about those races. Oh wait, Belgium '12, wasn't that when Grosjean almost killed Nando?

Schumacher's trademark was lights-to-flag victory, so is Vettel's. I fail to see the difference, other than Vettel not deliberately crashing into other drivers.

Spain '96 wasn't lights to flag, nor was Imola '05...etc...

Wow. You can pull Schumacher moments like snap, despite not having watched him, as you claimed several posts ago?

What?

So you say Hamilton is a great qualifier, but when Alonso beats him half the time, Alonso is a poor qualifier? Logic, please?

half the time. Generally, Hamilton is better in qualifying than Alonso. Though, saying that Alonso's starts are just utterly brilliant. I remember:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tzj9V78tBpE

I'm still waiting for an explanation of how Vettel's being in a dominant car and acting a bit cheeky about it is worse than Michael's being in a dominant car, acting cheeky about it, and cheating.

Seriously. How is it worse? Unless you can answer that, then your argument is worthless.

Because you're simplifying the argument. My argument is that Schumacher is above this level of hate, and Vettel hasn't earnt his stripes. Schumacher showed talent, Vettel proves Newey's greatness...

Wow, Vettel has a dominant car. So did every other multiple world champion, move on.[/COLOR][/B]
Debatable. Hakkinen's titles were won when the Ferrari package was arguably better, and that's just one example.

Let's turn the tables on you: Vettel's earned his stripes. Italy '08 clearly proved that.

ONE. ONE. ONE. SINGLE. RACE. He hasn't produced any decent drives since. One hit wonder, clearly, since he's so opposed to actually being challenged and proving his salt. Just wants to keep sitting on the golden ticket. I don't blame him if all I wanted was money, girls and a tainted legacy...


...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBIZF3sDFTI
edit:
Found this as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&f...s: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxQc59MX15M

 

[PeterJB]

Still can't remember anything particularly memorable about those races. Oh wait, Belgium '12, wasn't that when Grosjean almost killed Nando?

All of those races are ones where Vettel either got pole against all odds, fought hard in a broken car or climbed from either the midfield of the back of the grid into the top 5. That includes Belgium 2012. He started 10th, and finished 2nd. Had Alonso finished that race, Vettel would have still been at least 3rd.

Spain '96 wasn't lights to flag, nor was Imola '05...etc...

That's 2 races out of over 300, 68 of which were started from pole.

 

[Danny]

ONE. ONE. ONE. SINGLE. RACE. He hasn't produced any decent drives since. One hit wonder, clearly

Apart from the 28 Grand Prix wins that came after it, and the 50 podiums. Right?

Why do you still seem to think you're discussing facts?

 

[Carbonox]

Lol, Vettel @ Abu Dhabi last year. What I saw was some impatient kid trying to rush through traffic and nearly wrecking himself in the process. In the end he got a podium because, well, duh, his car was 2 seconds a lap faster than the others', and that's why his mistakes didn't weigh much on the long run.

 

[JGreens]

Apart from the 28 Grand Prix wins that came after it, and the 50 podiums. Right?

Why do you still seem to think you're discussing facts?

No, those are Newey's victories and podiums...

Oh found this fan video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXKQF8MNY1A

 

[Furinkazen]

Vettel has produced no decent drives. Right because someone mediocre can win in a top car...

Why did Luca Badoer not win any races at Ferrari then?

 

[Carbonox]

Vettel has produced no decent drives. Right because someone mediocre can win in a top car...

Why did Luca Badoer not win any races at Ferrari then?

I think that's not a fair comparison, Ferrari was crap in 2009 and Badoer... well, hadn't raced in 10 years.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Clearly JGreens bumped his head down a long flight of stairs today, he is in need of CT scans.

 

[JGreens]

Vettel has produced no decent drives. Right because someone mediocre can win in a top car...

Why did Luca Badoer not win any races at Ferrari then?

at Ferrari. Give him a Newey golden ticket and name on trophy...

 

[PeterJB]

I think that's not a fair comparison, Ferrari was crap in 2009 and Badoer... well, hadn't raced in 10 years.

Crap enough to win races. And yeah, he hadn't, he'd only been their official test driver the whole time.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Vettel has produced no decent drives. Right because someone mediocre can win in a top car...

Why did Luca Badoer not win any races at Ferrari then?

Or Fisi, and better yet why didn't Fisi win a championship in the Renault when it was at peak? Cause JGreens thinks he knows what he is talking about but is just a blinded Vettel Hater.

 

[Furinkazen]

at Ferrari. Give him a Newey golden ticket and name on trophy...

Oh, so where are Webbers titles?

Someone does not win 1 WDC, never mind 3, without skill. Best car? Yes. Best driver to make full use of the car? Yes.

 

[Carbonox]

Crap enough to win races. And yeah, he hadn't, he'd only been their official test driver the whole time.

I'd say the drivers were good (Kimi and Massa I mean), but the car honestly was way off the pace in many of the races. Take Singapore or Abu Dhabi for example, where neither driver had any decent shots at anything more than small-time points.

 

[Danny]

No, those are Newey's victories and podiums...

So being able to drive a fast car, quickly and consistently, is completely lacking in skill?

Mark Webber had 9 wins in the same amount of time in a car that apparently does all the work for you. Now please explain how Lewis Hamilton has more wins under his belt than Mark Webber if the Red Bull is so overwhelmingly and 100% dominant.

If what you believe is true, every single race should have been a Red Bull 1-2. Because y'know. Adrian Newey built a car that wins everything regardless of driver talent.

Oh found this fan video:

Congratulations, you found a video?

 

[Ardius]

No, those are Newey's victories and podiums...

And so are Schumacher's wins really Rory Byrne's? Are Jim Clark's really Colin Chapman's?

 

[JGreens]

Or Fisi, and better yet why didn't Fisi win a championship in the Renault when it was at peak?

Newey wasn't at Renault. Lots of members like to have a go at me but cannot dispute the fact that without Newey, Vettel would have won NOTHING.

 

[PeterJB]

I'd say the drivers were good (Kimi and Massa I mean), but the car honestly was way off the pace in many of the races. Take Singapore or Abu Dhabi for example, where neither driver had any decent shots at anything more than small-time points.

Like McLaren that year they had rocky start, but by the mid-season both teams had pretty much sorted their cars out, as evident by the much improved results.

 

[Furinkazen]

Newey wasn't at Renault. Lots of members like to have a go at me but cannot dispute the fact that without Newey, Vettel would have won NOTHING.

He won in a Toro Rosso. Point invalid.

 

[f40]

Lol, Vettel @ Abu Dhabi last year. What I saw was some impatient kid trying to rush through traffic and nearly wrecking himself in the process. In the end he got a podium because, well, duh, his car was 2 seconds a lap faster than the others', and that's why his mistakes didn't weigh much on the long run.

How was his car 2 seconds a lap faster than everyone else's, with all of this figure you've plucked being all down to the car?