2013 Formula 1 Grand Prix du Canada

Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by lbsf1, Jun 3, 2013.

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  1. Danny

    Danny Premium

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    Okay.

    Firstly I have no idea what you're talking about, and a sneaking suspicion that neither do you.

    My point is that Michael Schumacher won his first race at the age of 21. So did Sebastian Vettel. MSC then went on to race for another 20+ years. The fact that you're whining that Vettel hasn't had half the race performances Michael Schumacher has isn't surprising since he's had less than half the races.

    You're whining about the fact that Sebastian Vettel hasn't accomplished more in 7 years than Michael Schumacher did in 25.
     
  2. JGreens

    JGreens (Banned)

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    Actually, I do. You're trying to say that because Vettel hasn't had a lengthy career he's excused from having a catalog of decent/memorable drives. I disagree. Lewis's career is roughly equal in length and yet, Lewis has had memorable drives and performances. That's why Lewis is better than Vettel, he's proved he's more than just a driver in a fast car (And Hamilton hasn't always been gifted perfect winning cars either) and until Vettel proves otherwise, his success is solely down to Newey.


    Whining? Nope stating facts. My original opinion was that Schumacher doesn't deserve all this anger and hate, unlike Vettel who certainly does deserve to be grilled until he proves one way or the other if he's more than just Newey designs and Horner hushed deals.
     
  3. SpeedyishOlly

    SpeedyishOlly

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    Ok, the only time Vettel has had a much less competitive car was with Toro Rosso.

    The results...... Well Vettel outperformed his team-mate in every race except the ones he retired from (accidents caused by other drivers, an engine failure) Most races he outperformed his team-mate by far. He also won a race.
    Hamilton has indeed performed well in every season of his career, but his car was never that bad. Vettel has also consistently outperformed Webber.
     
  4. JGreens

    JGreens (Banned)

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    I present the MP4-24, a car so disastrously bad that Mclaren only, only just scraped into 3rd for WCC after literally almost a complete rebuild for the later races...

    ...but what's more amusing is that the fact Vettel's only glories lie with beating his teammate, something, oh, say, what Bianchi is doing against Chilton.
     
  5. f40

    f40

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    3rd in the WCC? Hardly a disastrously bad car.

    :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
    You're arguing that beating one's teammate is the only glory in winning more races than all but 5 drivers in F1 history?
     
  6. PeterJB

    PeterJB Premium

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    Lewis has won races and finished no lower than 5th overall in every season of his career so far. Save for this year, though his team mate has shown that the car is capable of winning races. In 2009 he had, at best 8 races in a non-front-running car. From Silverstone onwards he made Q3 at every race except Spa and Interlagos (which was in the pouring rain), got pole position at 4 of those races, and won 2 of them. Kovalainen also 6 points finishes in a row.


    Schumacher's speed in his prime was mind-blowing,you couldn't help but stare in awe at it, but he is also a cheater. His move on Villeneuve cost him a whole season. His move on Hill in '94 (which is debatable as being deliberate) gave him his first title. Blocking the road at Monaco '06 got him sent to the back of the grid, he tried to drive Barrichello into the wall at Hungary 2010, and did a similar maneuver to Derek Warwick at the '91 430km of Nuerburgring.
     
  7. niky

    niky Moderator

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    Define memorable. Cutting up through the field in several races is not memorable? Outqualifying the clearly dominant Hamilton... in the rain, no less... is not memorable? Holding off Nico Rosberg for over a dozen laps by laying down fastest sector times... with a broken exhaust... isn't memorable? Doing Alonso-esque qualifying laps, completely smashing his team-mate, isn't memorable?

    And Alonso IS an amazing qualifier. If you rank Hamilton, note that the two, in their one season together in McLaren, split their qualifying battle straight down the middle. After they separated, they dominated qualifying in their respective teams.

    Your opinions wouldn't be so roundly debated if they were based on fact, and you're suggesting that the mere act of winning championships in the fastest car, which Schumacher, Senna and most of the greats have done, is more acceptable grounds for hating someone than trying to shove another driver into the wall.

    Wonderful. By that logic, Jenson Button desrves more hate than Romain Grosjean, right?
     
  8. JGreens

    JGreens (Banned)

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    Nope. I can't even remember which races in what years those claimed events happened. Everyone can pull out Schumacher moments like snap, but Vettel? Blank.


    And since? Alonso is poor in qualifying, he's clearly a race driver.


    He got penalized for that. Move on.


    For what? Jenson's earnt his stripes. Canada '11 clearly proved that.
     
  9. PeterJB

    PeterJB Premium

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    Monza 2008, Brazil 2009, Bahrain 2010, China 2010, Silverstone 2010, Monza 2011, Belgium 2012, Abu Dhabi 2012, Brazil 2012, to name a few.

    But the vast majority of drivers have not. More than half of all Formula 1 drivers (Which is in excess of 1000) have done less than 10 races, only 105 have ever won a race.

    Schumacher's trademark was lights-to-flag victory, so is Vettel's. I fail to see the difference, other than Vettel not deliberately crashing into other drivers.

    What difference does that make? Other than showing that it was an illegal and unsporting maneuver.
     
  10. niky

    niky Moderator

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    Wow. You can pull Schumacher moments like snap, despite not having watched him, as you claimed several posts ago?

    So you say Hamilton is a great qualifier, but when Alonso beats him half the time, Alonso is a poor qualifier? Logic, please?

    I'm still waiting for an explanation of how Vettel's being in a dominant car and acting a bit cheeky about it is worse than Michael's being in a dominant car, acting cheeky about it, and cheating.

    Seriously. How is it worse? Unless you can answer that, then your argument is worthless.

    Wow, Vettel has a dominant car. So did every other multiple world champion, move on.


    Let's turn the tables on you: Vettel's earned his stripes. Italy '08 clearly proved that.

    -

    You can simply say "I hate Vettel's smug face for personal reasons" and leave it at that. Trying to come up with arguments as to why he's objectively more despicable than someone like Schumacher is just futile.
     
  11. LMSCorvetteGT2

    LMSCorvetteGT2

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    Exactly what I mean, boo but don't physically harm or try to.
     
  12. JGreens

    JGreens (Banned)

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    Still can't remember anything particularly memorable about those races. Oh wait, Belgium '12, wasn't that when Grosjean almost killed Nando?


    Spain '96 wasn't lights to flag, nor was Imola '05...etc...


    What?


    half the time. Generally, Hamilton is better in qualifying than Alonso. Though, saying that Alonso's starts are just utterly brilliant. I remember:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tzj9V78tBpE


    Because you're simplifying the argument. My argument is that Schumacher is above this level of hate, and Vettel hasn't earnt his stripes. Schumacher showed talent, Vettel proves Newey's greatness...


     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2013
  13. PeterJB

    PeterJB Premium

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    All of those races are ones where Vettel either got pole against all odds, fought hard in a broken car or climbed from either the midfield of the back of the grid into the top 5. That includes Belgium 2012. He started 10th, and finished 2nd. Had Alonso finished that race, Vettel would have still been at least 3rd.

    That's 2 races out of over 300, 68 of which were started from pole.
     
  14. Danny

    Danny Premium

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    Apart from the 28 Grand Prix wins that came after it, and the 50 podiums. Right?

    Why do you still seem to think you're discussing facts?
     
  15. Carbonox

    Carbonox

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    Lol, Vettel @ Abu Dhabi last year. What I saw was some impatient kid trying to rush through traffic and nearly wrecking himself in the process. In the end he got a podium because, well, duh, his car was 2 seconds a lap faster than the others', and that's why his mistakes didn't weigh much on the long run.
     
  16. JGreens

    JGreens (Banned)

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    No, those are Newey's victories and podiums...

    Oh found this fan video:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXKQF8MNY1A
     
  17. Furi

    Furi Premium

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    Vettel has produced no decent drives. Right because someone mediocre can win in a top car...

    Why did Luca Badoer not win any races at Ferrari then?
     
  18. Carbonox

    Carbonox

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    I think that's not a fair comparison, Ferrari was crap in 2009 and Badoer... well, hadn't raced in 10 years. :p
     
  19. LMSCorvetteGT2

    LMSCorvetteGT2

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    Clearly JGreens bumped his head down a long flight of stairs today, he is in need of CT scans.
     
  20. JGreens

    JGreens (Banned)

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    at Ferrari. Give him a Newey golden ticket and name on trophy...
     
  21. PeterJB

    PeterJB Premium

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    Crap enough to win races. And yeah, he hadn't, he'd only been their official test driver the whole time.
     
  22. LMSCorvetteGT2

    LMSCorvetteGT2

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    Or Fisi, and better yet why didn't Fisi win a championship in the Renault when it was at peak? Cause JGreens thinks he knows what he is talking about but is just a blinded Vettel Hater.
     
  23. Furi

    Furi Premium

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    Oh, so where are Webbers titles?

    Someone does not win 1 WDC, never mind 3, without skill. Best car? Yes. Best driver to make full use of the car? Yes.
     
  24. Carbonox

    Carbonox

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    I'd say the drivers were good (Kimi and Massa I mean), but the car honestly was way off the pace in many of the races. Take Singapore or Abu Dhabi for example, where neither driver had any decent shots at anything more than small-time points.
     
  25. Danny

    Danny Premium

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    So being able to drive a fast car, quickly and consistently, is completely lacking in skill?

    Mark Webber had 9 wins in the same amount of time in a car that apparently does all the work for you. Now please explain how Lewis Hamilton has more wins under his belt than Mark Webber if the Red Bull is so overwhelmingly and 100% dominant.

    If what you believe is true, every single race should have been a Red Bull 1-2. Because y'know. Adrian Newey built a car that wins everything regardless of driver talent.


    Congratulations, you found a video?
     
  26. Ardius

    Ardius

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    And so are Schumacher's wins really Rory Byrne's? :dunce: Are Jim Clark's really Colin Chapman's?
     
  27. JGreens

    JGreens (Banned)

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    Newey wasn't at Renault. Lots of members like to have a go at me but cannot dispute the fact that without Newey, Vettel would have won NOTHING.
     
  28. PeterJB

    PeterJB Premium

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    Like McLaren that year they had rocky start, but by the mid-season both teams had pretty much sorted their cars out, as evident by the much improved results.
     
  29. Furi

    Furi Premium

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    He won in a Toro Rosso. Point invalid.
     
  30. f40

    f40

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    How was his car 2 seconds a lap faster than everyone else's, with all of this figure you've plucked being all down to the car?
     
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