- 22,549
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
2014 Santander German Grand Prix
- Thread starter SVT Cobra GT
- 380 comments
- 11,544 views
- 4,081
- Somerset
- Pagey279
True, but contact was made because Hamilton was a buffoon and locked up both fronts. He got the job done yes, but it wasn't clean by any means and if anything Hamilton's mistake kept him in front.
- 22,549
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
It was hard racing, that happens. To me it wasn't a buffoon type move it was an ambitious move that he made work even if rough. Perhaps it's me liking to see those type of things done due to all the other racing I watch, but it seems that the more F1 only fans (not saying you are) tend to build up this notion that everything must be done precise and never touch in this modern day. Yet there are many amazing battles past and present where some touching has happened but worse than what we saw with Ham and Kimi or even Kimi and Vettel.
To me it usually is those that are critical of certain drivers because of how media is portrayed that usually can't be partial. I feel if this wasn't Ham or Vettel that did these moves but made it work they'd have far more praise. Even with the aggression I enjoyed it, because it's these type of drives that make WDCs when Saturday goes wrong. If he wins this championship this race will be one of those key moments that kept his head above water. That's the aspect I look at it from.
- 13,739
- Adelaide
- Neomone
Agreed. Of the three choices available to them (safety car, marshals from the pit lane, marshals from the outside of the track) they chose the most dangerous one.
I could see the argument being made that half a dozen marshals could hop the pit wall and push it out of the way under double yellows. Where the car came to a stop was pretty safe from anything short of someone doing the exact same loop that Sutil did, which should be impossible under yellows. That was what I expected them to do to be honest. Safety car would have been a fine choice too.
But no, they got it wrong. Even one of the four marshals chickened out of running across the racing line, presumably because he/she came to their senses and remembered that it's the one thing you don't do on a live race track unless it's life and death.
- 5,619
- Hampshire
- Spurgy777
I prefer it when they don't make contact, much more impressive for me. Same with any racing series, it's just a shame most people watching want to see contact/crashes because they seem to think it's more exciting. As for the two incidents, I didn't find the Vettel/Raikkonen contact so bad, Vettel should have stayed right, but then he didn't know Alonso was there on the other side of the Kimi sandwich. Hamiltons overtake would have been great if he didn't stuff up his braking and almost take out Raikkonen and Button(? Can't remember). He's lucky they are both quite aware of what's going on, and are very good at taking avoiding action.
- 2,998
- England
- Peasantslayer
He had to make 27 overtakes, you'd expect a little incident or 2 especially when you look at how many aggressive moves where made in that corner and as has been discussed the Button one was more of a misunderstanding than an overly aggressive move.
- 22,549
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
This makes really no sense even from you which is surprising. So Vettel/Kimi is okay but Hamilton/Kimi isn't? Even though there was more awareness from Vettel of Alonso being there than there was for Hamilton of Ric being on the side of Kimi.
This is before they do what the next image below shows, clearly Vettel is aware of Alonso as both go around Kimi at the same time as above shows them preparing to do.
As you see Vettel and Kimi touch rear tire with front which could have spun Vettel and caused a similar incident to what happened with Massa. Luckily it was a right hand turn so this didn't happen and Kimi got out of it realizing he was slower. It was a messy move but one that I think Vettel should have made so long as more didn't happen and it didn't.
Next one is Hamilton with Kimi:
Now Lewis thought he probably had more room since him and Kimi pulled out on the subsequent driver ahead of them (Hamilton < Kimi and Kimi < Ric). Though Kimi was probably more aware of Hamilton in this instance more so than the one that would happen later with Vettel and Fernando.
Also I hope you're not confusing me with "people" that enjoy carnage on a track. Those are usually fair weather viewers or more so casual viewers that don't follow a series for full season much less half a season, and only come to see a wreck like they would on a motorway.
However, types that actually know, watch and even participated in track events or more so the level you have don't watch racing for that. They watch racing because of the adrenaline and the nerves and anticipation of moves created in moments like we've seen this year all over. Seeing a driver on the edge and pushing the limit and making daring moves that may not always be perfect but were in the realm of reality that it worked and gave them more than if they hadn't of done said move. Even simple passes can be misinterpreted and cause a big wreck or incident that may be no ones fault it's part of the beast of racing.
I'd much rather see a drivers true persona on the track as a competitor fighting than I would with the DRS has basically done to desensitize the reality of it all. That passes are done with such ease when it's not reality and not always the case. Sure Hamilton and others had a move that was risky here and there and not the most beautiful in the world, but to expect every single move to be such is less realistic.
edit:
Also what I'm getting from some people is that if there was no lock up smoke from Hamilton the pass would have seemed brilliant? Cause that's just silly considering there were many lock ups by plenty driving hard, and some how this lock up was Worlds apart...
You're right. Still, he did reach 372.6 km/h.No DRS, no KERS, just engine.
It was a considerably less regulated V10...so I'd hope it would do that. The DRS bit I can understand the KERS bit is somewhat extraneous dislike of a mechanical piece. You might as well disallow the function of the turbo making power as well because the big V10 with four more cylinders and a much less restricted 19k to 21k rpm, didn't need one. Let's not forget the 900 to 940hp that the cars had as well. And we're not even beginning to talk about the difference in aero packages from all the way back then to now that allowed for more speed too...
I'd say on the restrictions made toward the V6 it is far more impressive that with as tight as the regs are, the Engineering in basically 10 years time has jumped this far that you can match speeds with less than before.
Last edited:
- 5,619
- Hampshire
- Spurgy777
This makes really no sense even from you which is surprising. So Vettel/Kimi is okay but Hamilton/Kimi isn't? Even though there was more awareness from Vettel of Alonso being there than there was for Hamilton of Ric being on the side of Kimi.
This is before they do what the next image below shows, clearly Vettel is aware of Alonso as both go around Kimi at the same time as above shows them preparing to do.
As you see Vettel and Kimi touch rear tire with front which could have spun Vettel and caused a similar incident to what happened with Massa. Luckily it was a right hand turn so this didn't happen and Kimi got out of it realizing he was slower. It was a messy move but one that I think Vettel should have made so long as more didn't happen and it didn't.
How is the first picture relevant? It shows them going around T2, were talking about T3(or 4?)
Anyway, my point was, the order down the straight was Raikkonen, Vettel and Alonso, so Vettel was the first to pull out, and after he'd done so, he wouldn't have any real idea where Alonso was, only that he wasn't directly behind him. That's why I said he should have stayed right, simply just to be on the cautious side, but he there was no way of him knowing that Alonso was on the outside of Kimi, because he couldn't see him.
Next one is Hamilton with Kimi:
Now Lewis thought he probably had more room since him and Kimi pulled out on the subsequent driver ahead of them (Hamilton < Kimi and Kimi < Ric). Though Kimi was probably more aware of Hamilton in this instance more so than the one that would happen later with Vettel and Fernando.
Again, your pictures aren't exactly very useful, ideally we need video of each incident going all the way down the straight to see what the drivers were/weren't aware of.
But with Hamilton, he was behind both drivers along the straight, and he saw they were both side by side before he pulled out to the inside of the hairpin. So my point is he should of been much more cautious on the brakes, because he knew, a mistake on the brakes could have quite easily lead to a 3-4 car pile up, and he was lucky to get away with a tap thanks to the drivers around him being very aware.
No I'm not, I'm just saying most people (that I talk to/see talking about F1) seem to enjoy seeing contact/questionable moves, and I just get annoyed by them because I feel their messy and unnecessary.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for daring moves, I just don't like them when the drivers make mistakes because they're being overly ambitious and a bit reckless, if they make mistakes through slight misjudgements I don't mind because they are only human. And the difference between the incidents was I found the contact in Vettels case was through a misjudgement, and in Hamiltons case it seemed he wasn't being cautious enough.
I don't like DRS either, but until they removed aero, it's the best option we've got, because there probably won't be much overtaking otherwise.
- 4,081
- Somerset
- Pagey279
You took the words out of my mouth.
This makes really no sense even from you which is surprising. So Vettel/Kimi is okay but Hamilton/Kimi isn't? Even though there was more awareness from Vettel of Alonso being there than there was for Hamilton of Ric being on the side of Kimi.
This is before they do what the next image below shows, clearly Vettel is aware of Alonso as both go around Kimi at the same time as above shows them preparing to do.
As you see Vettel and Kimi touch rear tire with front which could have spun Vettel and caused a similar incident to what happened with Massa. Luckily it was a right hand turn so this didn't happen and Kimi got out of it realizing he was slower. It was a messy move but one that I think Vettel should have made so long as more didn't happen and it didn't.
Next one is Hamilton with Kimi:
Now Lewis thought he probably had more room since him and Kimi pulled out on the subsequent driver ahead of them (Hamilton < Kimi and Kimi < Ric). Though Kimi was probably more aware of Hamilton in this instance more so than the one that would happen later with Vettel and Fernando.
Also I hope you're not confusing me with "people" that enjoy carnage on a track. Those are usually fair weather viewers or more so casual viewers that don't follow a series for full season much less half a season, and only come to see a wreck like they would on a motorway.
However, types that actually know, watch and even participated in track events or more so the level you have don't watch racing for that. They watch racing because of the adrenaline and the nerves and anticipation of moves created in moments like we've seen this year all over. Seeing a driver on the edge and pushing the limit and making daring moves that may not always be perfect but were in the realm of reality that it worked and gave them more than if they hadn't of done said move. Even simple passes can be misinterpreted and cause a big wreck or incident that may be no ones fault it's part of the beast of racing.
I'd much rather see a drivers true persona on the track as a competitor fighting than I would with the DRS has basically done to desensitize the reality of it all. That passes are done with such ease when it's not reality and not always the case. Sure Hamilton and others had a move that was risky here and there and not the most beautiful in the world, but to expect every single move to be such is less realistic.
edit:
Also what I'm getting from some people is that if there was no lock up smoke from Hamilton the pass would have seemed brilliant? Cause that's just silly considering there were many lock ups by plenty driving hard, and some how this lock up was Worlds apart...
It was a considerably less regulated V10...so I'd hope it would do that. The DRS bit I can understand the KERS bit is somewhat extraneous dislike of a mechanical piece. You might as well disallow the function of the turbo making power as well because the big V10 with four more cylinders and a much less restricted 19k to 21k rpm, didn't need one. Let's not forget the 900 to 940hp that the cars had as well. And we're not even beginning to talk about the difference in aero packages from all the way back then to now that allowed for more speed too...
I'd say on the restrictions made toward the V6 it is far more impressive that with as tight as the regs are, the Engineering in basically 10 years time has jumped this far that you can match speeds with less than before.
Dude what's with the essay? All he said is overtakes are more impressive when they are completed without a potentially race ruining mistake and contact with other cars. And considering it's a non contact motorsport what's all the fuss about?
- 22,549
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
It's in the same area as far as the descriptions given they could be wrong. The point is Vettel was aware of Alonso since they both went around Kimi at the same time.
Find an image that supports this or a video because we're going to remember it differently. As I said he knew Alonso was on the other side and even if he didn't there was far more collision in that moment than the prior.
If you have any be my guest. I couldn't fine any not even a gif, but I found this a more useful method than either of just attributing it to memory.
No he wasn't, at least not how I remember it. My point is both drivers could have caused it a three car wreck and yet only one of them to you could have seems to be the implication.
They're human first off, so nothing is going to be without some mess ever so often. Hamilton and Rosberg seem to have a great understanding of their cars ability compared to the rest of the field. Hence why we see them pull such liberal moves. The other top drivers also seem to be aware of this and why we don't see more accidents/wrecks. We could do all the could of would ofs in the world on contact. My point is if you plan to why not be consistent? Or explain more so in detail how virtually similar incidents get a different approval from you.
If it is a very obvious and stupid move like we've some from Guttierez on Pastor and vice versa for example, then yeah that's just being a moron rather than racing.
Well I'm glad you recognize that as well. However, I don't see it that way. I see both drives had a sense of urgency to make up as much ground as possible so the strategy in mind could work at the most effective possibility. They made ambitious moves that weren't the prettiest but were done with enough fineness to not make something more happen. If something had happened I could see people being up in arms on this, but since nothing did and they made them work and no one complained it was racing.
Why? There is plenty of overtaking without DRS. Also I wouldn't say aero is the problem, if there was an ability to have more mechanical grip on and equal level with Aero to where teams could go either way and be just as fast...
Dude, what's with the issue you have on me commenting the way I do?
And he said more than that hence why I wanted to get a better understanding, if you have issue with that oh well. However, this is a forum and discussion like this are held every day. Perhaps if I didn't open the door to you, you wouldn't be so quick to say anything on my choice of return comments. That entire comment as you quoted it wasn't to him so good job on the obscurity front. There was an edit for the general chat, and then a comment to another user as well.
Last edited:
- 4,081
- Somerset
- Pagey279
No issue...dude. However it seems like every race weekend you get into multi page "discussions" with walls and walls of text that seemingly go nowhere.
- 5,619
- Hampshire
- Spurgy777
Here you go, they won't be up for too long, don't want Bernie hunting me down even if they are unlisted
As you can see, the order was Raikkonen, Vettel, Alonso, and Ricciardo, Raikkonen, Hamilton.You're right, its a fine line, IMO Hamilton's mistake was caused by him being a bit too ambitious and aggressive, whereas Vettel's mistake was caused by him being unaware of where Alonso was, although in hindsight, it would have been best for him to stay right, just in case Alonso had managed to get down the left hand side.
The problem with aero, is the more you stick on a car, the harder it is to get close to other people, because you lose more and more grip in the corners. If you were to remove all aero, you could get as close to the other drivers as you wanted and still not lose any grip (pretty much). Also, I think if you had ground effects on a car, you would have increased grip, but I'm unsure about that, my understanding of ground effects is effectively creating a vacuum under the car. So my reasoning is if you were in a slipstream, less air would be going under the car, increasing the vacuum, but I'm sure someone will correct me on that if I'm wrong.
- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
I saw his answer as an interesting point-by-point assessment of what really happened. All grist
This is a Formula, like all Formula racing there are limitations. One of those in Formula 1 is that by design the cars don't make contact very well. Does that mean we should see no contact? Of course not.
No-one wants to see eternal Guttierez/Maldonado/Grosjean(MkI)-style driving but you have to accept that these cars race close, some contact is going to happen when you explore the genuinely finite limit of tarmac-on-rubber.
And am I the only one who thinks Vettel deliberately boxed the Ferraris into the Force India?
Perfectly legitimate of course, and the lad does seem to use traffic very well sometimes.
- 22,549
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
delete double post sorry
Last edited:
- 22,549
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
Maybe you're confusing me with the many others that do this, or perhaps your just pretending I'm the only one. The same consistency I'm asking from others I would ask of you as well. So maybe you should quote them too and ask them why such a long post.
EDIT:
Also the guy replied to me opening up the door for this, and I saw things that I wanted to understand from a different perspective so I continued it. Hence why I do this.
Here you go, they won't be up for too long, don't want Bernie hunting me down even if they are unlisted
So your video proves to me exactly what I said and tried to show, I will concede that Vettel may not have known that Alonso went the other way around Kimi. However, they basically pulled a move a Kimi seconds apart and Seb knew Fernando was in that vicinity. I think and this is just me, to avoid a Silverstone esque dog fight again he pushed Kimi's to the outside line in an attempt to make sure Alonso didn't make the pass if he hadn't already started his move.
Same goes for the Lewis move on Kimi. As I said they made the move at the same moment, what I concede on this is if the car is changing lines he is probably blocking or passing another car I can't see. If you watch the video it's clear that he probably isn't aware it's the RBR and perhaps a slower car like the FI. If he had pulled out as both were side by side then I can see how it'd make sense to see it a bit more sloppy than I do, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Anyways thanks for putting these up even at risk of the trolls wrath from the FOM 👍
Maybe it's just me but I tend to think WDC drivers know how WDC drivers think and act and why I believe what I said earlier in this reply on the Vettel-Raik-Fernando battle.
I know how it works, just like you're doing the racing end of it I'm doing the engineering side with Future goals to be in racing. The problem with ground effects is that is the point, basically like EBD created a constant low pressure area on the diffuser even under braking so cornering speeds increased the same is done with ground effects. Yet you're using the entire cars underside to do this instead. So you're going to get great corner speeds but depending on the flow to the rear wing, you may not get very good straight line speed. The idea is with a good engine you'll have good speed on the straights since it is a design that creates less drag if done right, but also maximizes corner speeds.
So I think you have a good solution, but if allowed more mechanical grip is also viable.
Last edited:
- 13,739
- Adelaide
- Neomone
Drivers who regularly make misjudgements probably don't get as far as Formula 1, and if they do they don't stay there for long (unless they have TONS of money, *cough*Maldonado*cough*).
Waiting for mistakes from world class drivers so that you can get past is a mug's game. You have to force the mistake or carve out room for yourself, and that means being aggressive about it. All the drivers know this, and that's why they're usually ready to give each other room.
That sometimes this results in contact is the nature of racing. Contact in Formula 1 is generally trivial compared to just about any other sort of motorsport. That the cars are so fragile just adds another element to the game.
