2015 General WEC/ELMS/AsLMS Discussion ThreadSports Cars 

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LMSCorvetteGT2
True, but this car seems to be the more true successor to the M3 that preceded the Z4. And perhaps trying to swing the Z4 was too tall a task, compared to this. But we'll see. It just strikes me odd that a group that has competed in several 24h events would just all of a sudden not want to...yet participate in a class that is raced by many for that specific reason. I feel they could save money just going to GT-D with the M6
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The M3 wasn't even supposed to race at Le Mans it had more waivers than the viper and AOC told them they will let them enter if they build a proper GTE car which they then made the poor excuse of a Z4 and the AOC told them no.
 
It's weird that BMW don't even try making a GTE car...they just go to IMSA (and previously the ALMS IMSA) and are like: "Hai dare, can we take a GT3 car and upgrade it to something that resembles a GTE and race in your championship?".
 
catamount39
It's weird that BMW don't even try making a GTE car...they just go to IMSA (and previously the ALMS IMSA) and are like: "Hai dare, can we take a GT3 car and upgrade it to something that resembles a GTE and race in your championship?".
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Forgive me if this is a noob question, but what exactly is the difference between a GT3 car and a GTE car...and for that mayter, how does GT Daytona fit in there?

Are the cars that's drastically different? If yes, that seems like the most insanely stupid regulation design I've ever heard of.
 
twitcher
Forgive me if this is a noob question, but what exactly is the difference between a GT3 car and a GTE car...and for that mayter, how does GT Daytona fit in there?

Are the cars that's drastically different? If yes, that seems like the most insanely stupid regulation design I've ever heard of.
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GTE are cars built to the ACO GT regulations while GT3 are cars built to the FIA GT Regulations. GTD are essentially reduced GT3 cars to keep them separate from the GTE cars. This will no longer be the case in 2016 now that GTE cars have been given abit more power and downforce, allowing the GTD class to use the FIA's GT regulations and specs.
 
RACECAR
GTE are cars built to the ACO GT regulations while GT3 are cars built to the FIA GT Regulations. GTD are essentially reduced GT3 cars to keep them separate from the GTE cars. This will no longer be the case in 2016 now that GTE cars have been given abit more power and downforce, allowing the GTD class to use the FIA's GT regulations and specs.
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....that confused me even more :lol: thanks though.

Which is fastest, GT3, GTE, or GTD. Which has the most downforce? What other differences are there.

And the biggest question I have, is WHY??? Why have seperate rule books for cars that are essentially the exact 🤬 same....hell, they're all driven by the same group of drivers.

It seems completely counterproductive, counterintuitive, and seems like a giant waist of money that in the end does nothing but shrink the size of a potential grid.

Please, tell me there's some info or aspect that I'm missing which somehow justifies all these asinine rules.
 
twitcher
....that confused me even more :lol: thanks though.

Which is fastest, GT3, GTE, or GTD. Which has the most downforce? What other differences are there.

And the biggest question I have, is WHY??? Why have seperate rule books for cars that are essentially the exact 🤬 same....hell, they're all driven by the same group of drivers.

It seems completely counterproductive, counterintuitive, and seems like a giant waist of money that in the end does nothing but shrink the size of a potential grid.

Please, tell me there's some info or aspect that I'm missing which somehow justifies all these asinine rules.
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Sorry for the confusion :lol:

Should've mentioned that GTD is US only in the TUSCC.

Also, they aren't quite the same. GTE have much stricter regs on the cars being based on their Street Counterparts whereas GT3 is much more loose (like for instance the Z4 GT3 having the V8 from the M3 as opposed to the engine from its road version).

I believe due to the GT3 cars being bult on more loose regs, They are abit faster then GTE as they up to this point had a lot more downforce. Some of the drivers have even said that certain cars drive more like a Prototype. As for the drivers, well they are factory drivers so naturally they'll drive both.
 
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It should also be mentioned that GT3 was originally for amateur drivers, and therefore were meant to be cheaper, whereas GTE is mainly a manufacturer competition.
 
RACECAR
Should've mentioned that GTD is US only in the TUSCC.

Also, they aren't quite the same. GTE have much stricter regs on the cars being based on there Street Counterparts whereas GT3 is much more loose (like for instance V8 from the M3 as opposed to the engine from its road version).

I believe due to the GT3 cars being bult on more loose regs, They are abit faster then GTE as they up to this point had a lot more downforce.
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I'm starting to get a better picture :)

I just can't, for the life of me, figure out how this whole "multiple rule book" situation is allowed to exist.

Like I said, I'm very new to a lot of this, still have a lot to learn, and am missing a lot of the history. However, as a sort of, "outsider looking in," the current paradigm seems nuts!

From a customer perspective, if I'm buying a GT car, I would want the option of being able to enter it in as many events as possible. If I understand correctly, you would need a seperate GT car to compete at each of the Le Mans 24hr (GTE), Nürb 24hr(GT3), Spa 24hr(GT3), and Daytona 24hr(GTD) ...well I think Nürb and Spa would be the same, but still, 3 different cars for 4 events :(

If I'm a manufacturer who has decided having a presence in GT racing is what I want, my priority would be to build the car that has the largest customer base. That would be GT3? After that, a decision whether or not to build the other cars is a simple financial decision. Can I turn a profit from the smaller market, while still providing a competative product?

In the case of BMW, while it would be nice to see them at Le Mans, from a business standpoint, it's not surprising that they wouldn't build a GTE car.
 
twitcher
I'm starting to get a better picture :)

I just can't, for the life of me, figure out how this whole "multiple rule book" situation is allowed to exist.

Like I said, I'm very new to a lot of this, still have a lot to learn, and am missing a lot of the history. However, as a sort of, "outsider looking in," the current paradigm seems nuts!
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It can be abit confusing if you haven't been around for a while to take it all in.

twitcher
From a customer perspective, if I'm buying a GT car, I would want the option of being able to enter it in as many events as possible. If I understand correctly, you would need a seperate GT car to compete at each of the Le Mans 24hr (GTE), Nürb 24hr(GT3), Spa 24hr(GT3), and Daytona 24hr(GTD) ...well I think Nürb and Spa would be the same, but still, 3 different cars for 4 events :(
.
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That'll no longer be the case in 2016 as GTD will use the full FIA specs for GT3, which means that's actually now 2 cars for four events (Just a different sticker for that big
ol 'Murican one)
 
Yes to reconfirm and help people out...IMSA's GTD will be stock FIA GT3 regulations next year. And also, GTE and GT3 are currently relatively close (however, an all pro team would whip an am run GT3). Next year with the upgrades GTE will start to gap itself from GT3 (more power, slightly more aero, more refinements).
 
RACECAR
It can be abit confusing if you haven't been around for a while to take it all in.



That'll no longer be the case in 2016 as GTD will use the full FIA specs for GT3, which means that's actually now 2 cars for four events (Just a different sticker for that big
ol 'Murican one)
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So that means next year in the IMSA series, the GT field will basically be GT3 cars? That sounds exciting! I like big fields with lots of variety, so :)
 
twitcher
So that means next year in the IMSA series, the GT field will basically be GT3 cars? That sounds exciting! I like big fields with lots of variety, so :)
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Yep, GTD will be GT3 cars racing along side a Newer, wider (Sexier) GTLM class.
 
catamount39
Don't care. NEED. :drool:

Yes I'm fully aware we'll never have GT3's at Le Mans, but a man can dream can't he? :P
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Need second rate rich kid business men in cars wrecking? No thanks, AF Corse's AM division is enough thank you.
 
Furinkazen
Need second rate rich kid business men in cars wrecking? No thanks, AF Corse's AM division is enough thank you.
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Well most GT3's are now factory anyway these days sooooooooo..................... :P Besides all the Am's aren't impressive anyway. It'd just lower the bill of replacing the car. xD
 
catamount39
Well most GT3's are now factory anyway these days sooooooooo..................... :P Besides all the Am's aren't impressive anyway. It'd just lower the bill of replacing the car. xD
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Despite factory teams being officially illegal in GT3.
 
RACECAR
And you haven't even seen the 2016 C7.R yet ;)
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Have you seen it? Because I haven't seen photos of it anywhere. Besides how much crazier than the current one will it be anyway? (also...I miss the crazy liveries they ran on the GT2 car) :P
 
twitcher
I'm starting to get a better picture :)

I just can't, for the life of me, figure out how this whole "multiple rule book" situation is allowed to exist.

Like I said, I'm very new to a lot of this, still have a lot to learn, and am missing a lot of the history. However, as a sort of, "outsider looking in," the current paradigm seems nuts!

From a customer perspective, if I'm buying a GT car, I would want the option of being able to enter it in as many events as possible. If I understand correctly, you would need a seperate GT car to compete at each of the Le Mans 24hr (GTE), Nürb 24hr(GT3), Spa 24hr(GT3), and Daytona 24hr(GTD) ...well I think Nürb and Spa would be the same, but still, 3 different cars for 4 events :(

If I'm a manufacturer who has decided having a presence in GT racing is what I want, my priority would be to build the car that has the largest customer base. That would be GT3? After that, a decision whether or not to build the other cars is a simple financial decision. Can I turn a profit from the smaller market, while still providing a competative product?

In the case of BMW, while it would be nice to see them at Le Mans, from a business standpoint, it's not surprising that they wouldn't build a GTE car.
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The thing is the manufactors don't want GT3 they want GTE as has been commented loads on MWM.
 
Yeah BMW is the only manufactur reluctant to actually build a full blown GTE car. Ford, Aston, Chevy, Porsche and Ferrari are more than happy with GTE regs.
 
catamount39
Yeah BMW is the only manufactur reluctant to actually build a full blown GTE car. Ford, Aston, Chevy, Porsche and Ferrari are more than happy with GTE regs.
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They also tried to get the ACO to change the LMP1 rules and they said no so they then said they would enter garage 56 to be denied that too.

They just want everyone to change the rules to suit them thankfully the ACO have the backbone to stand up to them.
 
catamount39
Yeah BMW is the only manufactur reluctant to actually build a full blown GTE car. Ford, Aston, Chevy, Porsche and Ferrari are more than happy with GTE regs.
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If that's the case, it's a shame BMW won't play ball, but like I said, I sort of understand. Im not trying to justifying their track record in any way though.

I'm just coming at if from a "the more variety on the grid, the better" view point. What about Jaguar, McLaren, Mercedes, Audi, Lambo, Nissan and maybe Lexus when hell freezes over?

It would be great to see those brands in the WEC no?
 
twitcher
If that's the case, it's a shame BMW won't play ball, but like I said, I sort of understand. Im not trying to justifying their track record in any way though.

I'm just coming at if from a "the more variety on the grid, the better" view point. What about Jaguar, McLaren, Mercedes, Audi, Lambo, Nissan and maybe Lexus when hell freezes over?

It would be great to see those brands in the WEC no?
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But none of them would be (legally) works supported.
 
Furinkazen
But none of them would be (legally) works supported.
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If they were entered in a seperate GT3 category, while GTE continued to exist.

I think what I'm proposing would be to make the two classes one in the same. It would be each brand's own choice whether they wanted to enter a factory team.

Also, just because the pro and am cars are the same thing, that doesn't mean a sanctioning body couldn't put regulations on driver qualifications.

If I'm understanding correctly, the current crop of GTE Pro cars are slower than the GT3 Am cars???
 
twitcher
If they were entered in a seperate GT3 category, while GTE continued to exist.

I think what I'm proposing would be to make the two classes one in the same. It would be each brand's own choice whether they wanted to enter a factory team.

Also, just because the pro and am cars are the same thing, that doesn't mean a sanctioning body couldn't put regulations on driver qualifications.

If I'm understanding correctly, the current crop of GTE Pro cars are slower than the GT3 Am cars???
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Pro and Am will not be same next year. Pro will be all new cars.
 
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