2015 NASCAR Thread - And then there was 1

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It was a rough finish to the XFINITY Series race at Mid-Ohio, but considering the car that won, I think it's a very cool story. I saw most of that race and thought it was pretty cool. I'm not going to take a stand on whether that rough-up job was fair or foul. However, that was a pretty rough finish.

But if I had to choose between fair or foul on that finish, I'm actually going to say fair. He could have pulled a move sort of like when Dale Earnhardt Sr. spun out Terry LaBonte at the Bristol night race in 1999 in the Cup ranks, but I don't think the hit Reagan Smith put on Alex Tagliani was extremely malicious. This is one of those "let the players play" moments in sports- like a basketball player bumping into another constantly without fouling. I just don't want to call it anything like avoidable contact or anything.


[UPDATE] Changed up names.
 
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JohnBM01
It was a rough finish to the XFINITY Series race at Mid-Ohio, but considering the car that won, I think it's a very cool story. I saw most of that race and thought it was pretty cool. I'm not going to take a stand on whether that rough-up job was fair or foul. However, that was a pretty rough finish.

But if I had to choose between fair or foul on that finish, I'm actually going to say fair. He could have pulled a move sort of like when Dale Earnhardt Sr. spun out Terry LaBonte at the Bristol night race in 1999 in the Cup ranks, but I don't think the hit Reagan Smith put on Alex Tagliani was extremely malicious. This is one of those "let the players play" moments in sports- like a basketball player bumping into another constantly without fouling. I just don't want to call it anything like avoidable contact or anything.
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Sums it up. Also, corrected
 
AMPMROCKETFANN
JohnBM01
It was a rough finish to the XFINITY Series race at Mid-Ohio, but considering the car that won, I think it's a very cool story. I saw most of that race and thought it was pretty cool. I'm not going to take a stand on whether that rough-up job was fair or foul. However, that was a pretty rough finish.

But if I had to choose between fair or foul on that finish, I'm actually going to say fair. He could have pulled a move sort of like when Dale Earnhardt Sr. spun out Terry LaBonte at the Bristol night race in 1999 in the Cup ranks, but I don't think the hit Regan Smith put on Alex Tagliani was extremely malicious. This is one of those "let the players play" moments in sports- like a basketball player bumping into another constantly without fouling. I just don't want to call it anything like avoidable contact or anything.
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Sums it up. Also, corrected
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Corrected :p
 
I will say this: Drama aside, if the Xfinity race was before the CWTS race, I would have fallen asleep during the truck race. The truck race was a bore, but the Xfinity race was actually worth watching for a couple hours.
 
AnthonyD1993
I will say this: Drama aside, if the Xfinity race was before the CWTS race, I would have fallen asleep during the truck race. The truck race was a bore, but the Xfinity race was actually worth watching for a couple hours.
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The CWTS race was just another case of a Cup driver stomping on inferior drivers with superior equipment. That annoys me far more than what Regan did to Tagliani. At least the latter doesn't happen every week.
 
outlaw4rc
The CWTS race was just another case of a Cup driver stomping on inferior drivers with superior equipment. That annoys me far more than what Regan did to Tagliani. At least the latter doesn't happen every week.
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So you have more of a problem with someone winning a race legitimately by means of outperforming the rest of the field than someone winning by way of deliberately colliding with the leading driver?
 
SagarisGTB
So you have more of a problem with someone winning a race legitimately by means of outperforming the rest of the field than someone winning by way of deliberately colliding with the leading driver?
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When that driver has already progressed beyond the series and is only competing down in that series to pad their win totals, then yeah
 
SagarisGTB
So you have more of a problem with someone winning a race legitimately by means of outperforming the rest of the field than someone winning by way of deliberately colliding with the leading driver?
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If someone like Lewis Hamilton grabbed the best car in GP2 or lower and spanked the field every race weekend, that's pretty much what happens in NASCAR all the time. It's like a driver who gets to wear running shoes for a sprint while everyone else is forced to wear lead shoes. The disparity makes watching most Xfinity races a bore since the winner's all but determined from the start.

As for the bumping, each form of Motorsports has its set of rules and drivers need to understand what is and what is not allowed. Bumping drivers out of the way to win is something NASCAR typically allows at the shorter tracks and road courses and Regan took full advantage of it to win. Of course Tagliani has a reason to be upset but those are the breaks.

It does make Regan Smith a bit of a hypocrite, however.
 
outlaw4rc
As for the bumping, each form of Motorsports has its set of rules and drivers need to understand what is and what is not allowed. Bumping drivers out of the way to win is something NASCAR typically allows at the shorter tracks and road courses and Regan took full advantage of it to win. Of course Tagliani has a reason to be upset but those are the breaks.
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If you're allowed to bump drivers out of the way, racing becomes pointless. Under the rule set you're explaining, if a faster driver comes up behind a slower driver on track, the faster driver will have the prerogative to bump the car in front out of the way, get by and then pull away. Defensive driving becomes obsolete if the driver behind can use your car as a brake in a braking zones. Track position becomes redundant and the "race" becomes a glorified time trial. How is that legitimate racing?
 
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SagarisGTB
If you're allowed to bump drivers out of the way, racing becomes pointless. Under the rule set you're explaining, if a faster driver comes up behind a slower driver on track, the faster driver will have the prerogative to bump the car in front out of the way, get by and then pull away. Defensive driving becomes obsolete if the driver behind can use your car as a brake in a braking zones. Track position becomes redundant and the "race" becomes a glorified time trial. How is that legitimate racing?
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it's an actual technique and not one strictly used in the realms of nascar, creating aero loss by not even having to bump a driver is nothing wrong, just out playing the other driver. You make it sound as if the following driver just smashes in the rear end of that ahead.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
it's an actual technique and not one strictly used in the realms of nascar, creating aero loss by not even having to bump a driver is nothing wrong, just out playing the other driver. You make it sound as if the following driver just smashes in the rear end of that ahead.
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Like GTPorsche says, Regan physically bumped Tagliani off line (as Gordon also did in the other posted example), so your post has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

And even then, that's not how physics works. How does air moving over/through a car have anything more than a negligible influence on a car that is quickly moving away from it?
 
SagarisGTB
Like GTPorsche says, Regan physically bumped Tagliani off line (as Gordon also did in the other posted example), so your post has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

And even then, that's not how physics works. How does air moving over/through a car have anything more than a negligible influence on a car that is quickly moving away from it?
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Because the air goes over the behind car as well, which causes less air to hit the spoiler of the car, giving the car in front less turning ability
 
SagarisGTB
If you're allowed to bump drivers out of the way, racing becomes pointless. Under the rule set you're explaining, if a faster driver comes up behind a slower driver on track, the faster driver will have the prerogative to bump the car in front out of the way, get by and then pull away. Defensive driving becomes obsolete if the driver behind can use your car as a brake in a braking zones. Track position becomes redundant and the "race" becomes a glorified time trial. How is that legitimate racing?
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It's not a tactic done by every driver every single lap. The race today had plenty of passes that you would expect to see in any other form of Motorsports. What you saw is what happens when late caution bunches up a field of heavy cars that don't turn or brake well. Even then, not every driver in Regan Smith's position would've tried pushing the leader out of the way to win. It just so happened today we had a driver willing to go that far to win.

Again, if anyone's that upset about today's outcome, then would you prefer NASCAR overpolice every single incident like in other motorsports? I certainly don't consider how often they get many other things wrong.
 
SagarisGTB
Like GTPorsche says, Regan physically bumped Tagliani off line (as Gordon also did in the other posted example), so your post has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

And even then, that's not how physics works. How does air moving over/through a car have anything more than a negligible influence on a car that is quickly moving away from it?
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Change in turbulence...unless you want to dispute the 8 weeks I spent taking thermodynamics and going over these aspects. And despite that there is plenty to show. The point still stands even if you want to backslide, that this isn't a NASCAR only aspect of driving, however when it is done with the intent of cheating or just flat out running someone over or into a wall, penalties are given just like any other series. So please excuse us if we don't care for the slanted view you paint the sport. Once again if rear bumpers aren't being taken off the cars a slight bump or even getting close enough to cause rear aero grip loss is nothing new or bad. Just to those who think pristine millimeter gp racing should be the across the board norm, which seems to be the case.
 
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Jahgee1124
Because the air goes over the behind car as well, which causes less air to hit the spoiler of the car, giving the car in front less turning ability
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LMSCorvetteGT2
Change in turbulence...unless you want to dispute the 8 weeks I spent taking thermodynamics and going over these aspects. And despite that there is plenty to show.
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By the time the air is diverted by the car behind, the car in front has already cleared that batch of air. I'm no physics expert, but I'm skeptical of the process you're describing and I've never heard of such a phenomenon during my time following motorsport. Any links to a thorough explanation?
outlaw4rc
Again, if anyone's that upset about today's outcome, then would you prefer NASCAR overpolice every single incident like in other motorsports?
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Rule enforcement is preferable to having dangerous vigilante justice be the principal deterrent to transgressors. I can tolerate occasional overpolicing when there's a conscious effort to maintain decent driving standards.
 
SagarisGTB
Rule enforcement is preferable to having dangerous vigilante justice be the principal deterrent to transgressors. I can tolerate occasional overpolicing when there's a conscious effort to maintain decent driving standards.
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If this was happening every over weekend or so, that may be a valid point. This is one instance out of countless races this season so I'm not going to overreact. I'll just leave it at that.
 
All I know is... the next round of the XFINITY Series is at Bristol. So if you think a finish like this is foul around a place like Mid-Ohio, it would probably be commonplace and (almost) perfectly fine around Bristol.


Since today is Sunday as of this post, good luck to all drivers and teams in Cup taking on Michigan later today.
 
SagarisGTB
By the time the air is diverted by the car behind, the car in front has already cleared that batch of air. I'm no physics expert, but I'm skeptical of the process you're describing and I've never heard of such a phenomenon during my time following motorsport. Any links to a thorough explanation?
Rule enforcement is preferable to having dangerous vigilante justice be the principal deterrent to transgressors. I can tolerate occasional overpolicing when there's a conscious effort to maintain decent driving standards.
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It's helpful at places like Daytona and Talladega, but when you need that wind resistance (aka downforce) it's more harmful
 
Not sure if 2015 NASCAR thread, or 2015 Debate thread. In my honest opinion, passable. He just moved him off his line; it wasn't like he spun Tag out completely. Tagliani still finiehed second. Was it a dirty move? Yes. Could it have been much worse? Yes. At the end of the day, a guy running for a championship wanted another point towards said championship, so he made a move to get around a non-championship running driver.

Also, if soe of you "F1/Sportscar Masterrace" guys are so upset about a little "Rubbin's Racin", I highly suggest you watch some of Brad Keselowski's "moves" from last year. With the reaction of Regan's inccident, you'll most likely have a heart attack watching that bull:censored: from last year.
 
That video above is showing slipstream drafting, which nearly every other form of motorsport knows and uses.

What was being described earlier was using air to get the car in front of you loose without touching them. The reason it's more effective in NASCAR than in other racing series is the banking of the corners. A little extra air pushing out against the left-rear side of the lead car pushes the rear of the car toward the outside wall, causing the car to get extremely loose, very suddenly.

In my MSPaint masterpiece below, you can see the airflow going around the side of the nose of the #24 car, pushing the left-rear of the #6 car toward the outside wall. Having this happen while going 175 mph in a banked corner, this is going to greatly disturb the handling of the #6 car, all without actually touching the car.

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This would have been most effective when the nose of the #24 was at the big white letter C logo, where the airflow would really push the rear of the #6 car away from the nose of the #24. Based on the angle of the #6 in this photo, it wouldn't surprise me if this was an example of aero-loose being captured just a few moments after being initiated by the #24. It looks like the rear of the #6 car has stepped out to the right quite a bit here.



Also, in NASCAR, you frequently see "Side-drafting" (see below). Side-drafting doesn't speed up your car like slipstream drafting does. Instead, side-drafting greatly slows down the car beside you. Side-drafting is using the air that comes over the nose of your car to put more air directly in to the rear spoiler of the car beside you. You typically have to get right up beside the car to angle the airflow up to their rear spoiler. You also normally need to be a little further forward and closer to the other car than you would in the aero-loose example above.

Fo0GHaS.png


For the 17 car, the air typically flows (yellow line) pretty freely over the rear spoiler because of the height of the driver's compartment. However, when the #48 pulls up beside the rear spoiler, the air that comes over his nose (red line) can hit directly on the rear spoiler of the #17. This is like hitting an air brake for the 17 car, causing the car to gain a LOT of drag in a hurry.

With the super tall rear spoilers being used again today at Michigan, don't be surprised to see a LOT of side-drafting today.
 
ukfan758
It's time indeed! But it's not a race until a Viagra ad appears.
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Don't forget Kasey Kahne, Tony Stewart, and Jeff Gordon having worse luck than a man bringing a toothpick to a gun fight, and having Stenhouse wipe out 5% of the field.
 

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