2016 Formula 1 Gran Premio Heineken d'ItaliaFormula 1 

LMSCorvetteGT2
Saying he doesn't any more than those ahead of him, and especially not due to suggestions that he had a car at some big disadvantage to the Williams he in the end beat.

For the the parabolica which is what I was talking about it does. Considering the side grip in low and mid speed corners and front end bite, however the lack of rear wing in a high speed corner didn't allow them to have the exit speed of others. My point was to illustrate that red bull brought probably one of their most low down force packages ever to Monza, yet seemed to keep relatively the same stuff in other areas. Such as Diffuser (biggest maker of downforce) and the front vanes and front wing, with the rear wing being very simplistic. Yes front downforce of a high extentd creates oversteer and vice versa, my point was that perhaps that lack of rear wing and setup caused the car to step out as often as it did in Parabolica indicating that it wasn't as oveersteer driven as suggested.
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Do you mean step out in the rear - i.e. oversteer? Sorry I'm a bit confused now...

I'm fairly confident that Red Bull would have been running reduced aero on the front wing to balance the lack of aero on the rear, otherwise the car would be undriveable. But yes, a reduction in rear downforce would likely cause the car to be more oversteer prone
 
CarreraGT
Do you mean step out in the rear - i.e. oversteer? Sorry I'm a bit confused now...
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If it was oversteer I wouldn't expect it to veer up the track as if it was having trouble turning in especially on nearly full power down curve, unless the drivers were having to correct that badly, then I could see it as oversteer.

I'm fairly confident that Red Bull would have been running reduced aero on the front wing to balance the lack of aero on the rear, otherwise the car would be undriveable. But yes, a reduction in rear downforce would likely cause the car to be more oversteer prone
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Unless they felt the diffuser, was enough to do the job for the track they were going to with only six turns. The diffuser as I said creates the most downforce, thus you could lose some rear wing and still have a drivable car. Outside of that one corner, the RBR seemed quite balanced and not prone to oversteer

However, all of this doesn't really get to the point of my main disagreement.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
If it was oversteer I wouldn't expect it to veer up the track as if it was having trouble turning in especially on nearly full power down curve, unless the drivers were having to correct that badly, then I could see it as oversteer.



Unless they felt the diffuser, was enough to do the job for the track they were going to with only six turns. The diffuser as I said creates the most downforce, thus you could lose some rear wing and still have a drivable car. Outside of that one corner, the RBR seemed quite balanced and not prone to oversteer

However, all of this doesn't really get to the point of my main disagreement.
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I'm really not sure what your main disagreement is, you've totally lost me
 
prisonermonkeys
Then why even bother having races? Why not just award the title based on career statistics?
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Furinkazen
@Samus just said Hamilton messed his own race (which he did) and couldn't get to Nico because Nico just drove off into the sunset whilst Hamilton had to repass everyone.

So yet again, what are you on about?
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I'm also confused how that is a response to what I said. At the end of last season, for whatever reason, Rosberg was just better than Hamilton. He beat him to pole and won the races fair and square, Hamilton had no answer on raw pace. Yesterday Hamilton started on pole by a big margin but threw it all away at the start with a mistake and without a return mistake from Rosberg he was never going to beat him. So I don't see it as a recurrence of the end of last year and something Hamilton is going to start worrying about.

If only Rosberg had nipped past him at the start and Hamilton couldn't beat him, then I think you'd have a case.
 
Samus
I'm also confused how that is a response to what I said. At the end of last season, for whatever reason, Rosberg was just better than Hamilton. He beat him to pole and won the races fair and square, Hamilton had no answer on raw pace. Yesterday Hamilton started on pole by a big margin but threw it all away at the start with a mistake and without a return mistake from Rosberg he was never going to beat him. So I don't see it as a recurrence of the end of last year and something Hamilton is going to start worrying about.

If only Rosberg had nipped past him at the start and Hamilton couldn't beat him, then I think you'd have a case.
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Let's face it, Hamilton will beat Rosberg on raw pace 9 times out of 10. Hamilton has had a lot of bad luck this year and is still leading the championship.

That said, I think he is an absolute tool and I hope that Rosberg finds some way, any way, to beat him to the championship this year
 
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The way I see things now, the world championship will be decided by which Mercedes driver has less problems with that problematic clutch.
 
Agreed - I think Rosberg will probably win the title this year unless Lewis can sort out his starts. I know it has always been the case in F1 that the start is important, but it is a bit disappointing that it is still so important and that a bad start like Lewis's on Sunday means the race is all but over before they've even reached the first corner. To be fair, it still requires the leader to pull off a flawless drive, and Rosberg is more than capable of that - but as a spectacle it is still a bit too common for my liking that there is no serious competition for the race win.

On another note, I wonder if Rosberg could handle another Hamilton title - I guess both Nico and Lewis have a serious team of sports psychologists behind them to help them handle defeat (and each other's success), but if Nico loses out to Lewis once again this season, those psychologists in Team Rosberg will have quite a task!
 
Rosberg has to win to avoid setting an ignominious record; nobody has won the opening four rounds and failed to win the title that year.

It's quite astonishing to see his Wiki table go 1-1-1-1 then BANG! Spain happens, and Hamilton works his way back into the picture after that. This final third of the season is hotting up even if the title is between two drivers only. It's all to play for... between those two.
 
Liquid
Rosberg has to win to avoid setting an ignominious record; nobody has won the opening four rounds and failed to win the title that year.
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He's also (currently) the only driver to have won the Monaco, British, German, Belgian and Italian GPs and not have at least 3 championships to his name.
 
Liquid
Rosberg has to win to avoid setting an ignominious record; nobody has won the opening four rounds and failed to win the title that year.
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But if he does do it, he'll set a pretty impressive record: re-claiming the championship lead mid-season and going on to win. I can't remember the last person to do that.

Liquid
It's quite astonishing to see his Wiki table go 1-1-1-1 then BANG! Spain happens, and Hamilton works his way back into the picture after that.
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His problem was that when Hamilton started winning, he wasn't placing on the podium. If he had, he would still be leading the championship.
 
I didn't actually realise how few 1-2s they've had this season, only 4. I say only but that's in comparison to 11 for the whole year in 2014 and 12 in 2015. They would have to 1-2 all remaining races to get to 11 this year.
 
Famine
That depends on when Rosberg takes his engine penalties...
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Is he even in danger of taking penalties? I know that he's onto his fifth ICE, but teams like to put fresh ones in for Spa and/or Monza because they're so power-dependent. And unlike gearboxes, which can only be changed every few races, teams have free choice over when they use which engine components.

If Rosberg does take a penalty, it would likely be at Suzuka because Mercedes are believed to have an update planned for the race. But even then, Hamilton would likely take a penalty at the same time because he would get the updates, too.
 
He says that, but it would be the decision of the team. I am pretty sure that they have to run the same specification of engine within the team, so if one gets it, both do.
 
prisonermonkeys
He says that, but it would be the decision of the team. I am pretty sure that they have to run the same specification of engine within the team, so if one gets it, both do.
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They had different engines in Italy last year (though it was because Rosberg's blew up, IIRC).
 
CarreraGT
I'm really not sure what your main disagreement is, you've totally lost me
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His argument was that Ric deserves DoW/DoGP for a move pulled on a Williams, that was supposedly oodles faster than the RBR. I said bull:censored: and the rest was just conjecture on his part (that I argued) to support the claim. Not sure where you're lost at. Daniel though great doesn't deserve the weekend much less gp any more than those ahead of him do other than Nico. Since Nico actually did what his team mate couldn't figure to do, thus gaining an important win and for once in a long time looking like a championship/dominant driver.

prisonermonkeys
He says that, but it would be the decision of the team. I am pretty sure that they have to run the same specification of engine within the team, so if one gets it, both do.
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No they don't, it's never been that way. I even highlighted it last year in the Constructor thread. Lewis used updated engines before Rosberg, and both used updated merc engines before any of their customers, which was 2 or 3 races after the fact. Same thing happened at Ferrari, Kimi used the new engine before Vettel. Driver get the choice to do so. Also RBR last year didn't take the new Renault engine for a couple races cause they claimed there was hardly a benefit.
 
TheBook
They had different engines in Italy last year (though it was because Rosberg's blew up, IIRC).
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Maybe it's acceptable for one race or in cases of force majeure, but I can't imagine that the FIA would like a team to consciously and deliberately run different specifications of engine for several races.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
His argument was that Ric deserves DoW/DoGP for a move pulled on a Williams, that was supposedly oodles faster than the RBR. I said bull:censored: and the rest was just conjecture on his part (that I argued) to support the claim. Not sure where you're lost at. Daniel though great doesn't deserve the weekend much less gp any more than those ahead of him do other than Nico. Since Nico actually did what his team mate couldn't figure to do, thus gaining an important win and for once in a long time looking like a championship/dominant driver.



No they don't, it's never been that way. I even highlighted it last year in the Constructor thread. Lewis used updated engines before Rosberg, and both used updated merc engines before any of their customers, which was 2 or 3 races after the fact. Same thing happened at Ferrari, Kimi used the new engine before Vettel. Driver get the choice to do so. Also RBR last year didn't take the new Renault engine for a couple races cause they claimed there was hardly a benefit.
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OK I understand you don't believe the overtaking manoeuvre justified the DoW award, but then it gets confusing again. I think you need to slow down and think about what you are going to write before you write it. A little grammar goes a long way too...
 
prisonermonkeys
Maybe it's acceptable for one race or in cases of force majeure, but I can't imagine that the FIA would like a team to consciously and deliberately run different specifications of engine for several races.
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If that were the case then they'd make sure that the engine manufacture would get those engines out across the board as well. However, since we know that isn't the case since last year different engines were used over multiple races and not seen until the following year in testing or even the first race, I doubt the FIA care all that much. Or rather haven't shown to care before or since.

@CarreraGT not sure what's confusing, I've explained that the Williams wasn't any faster or slower than the RB. In fact that seemed quite equal based on speeds and times given, the only thing that seemed different was the RB had better stints. His argument yet again was DR based on the move, and claimed (by him) difficulty for the RBR to overcome the faster Williams is deserving of DoW. End of, everything else was conjecture to the claim that I also didn't agree with. That's all, I admit my explanation for why I saw the car understeer prone was ill-explained and I apologize for that to those reading the discussion.
 
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LMSCorvetteGT2
If that were the case then they'd make sure that the engine manufacture would get those engines out across the board as well. However, since we know that isn't the case since last year different engines were used over multiple races and not seen until the following year in testing or even the first race, I doubt the FIA care all that much. Or rather haven't shown to care before or since.

@CarreraGT not sure what's confusing, I've explained that the Williams wasn't any faster or slower than the RB. In fact that seemed quite equal based on speeds and times given, the only thing that seemed different was the RB had better stints. His argument yet again was DR based on the move, and claimed (by him) difficulty for the RBR to overcome the faster Williams is deserving of DoW. End of, everything else was conjecture to the claim that I also didn't agree with. That's all, I admit my explanation for why I saw the car understeer prone was ill-explained and I apologize for that to those reading the discussion.
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I said the RBR was faster over a lap just overtaking it was difficult because of the speed of the mercedes engine, Ricciardo wasnt really close enough to take full advantage of Slipstream.

But you have to argue everything untill people cant be bothered anymore.
 
mustafur
I said the RBR was faster over a lap just overtaking it was difficult because of the speed of the mercedes engine, Ricciardo wasnt really close enough to take full advantage of Slipstream.

But you have to argue everything untill people cant be bothered anymore.
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Okay then, still doesn't change the fact everyone deals with dirty air and difficult passing outside the DRS zone and that he isn't anymore deserving that those who finished ahead of him. Daniel had a car that was equal it could be said based off stint, quali, and outlap times as well as similar trap and max speeds. Like I said I'm struggling to see how DR was that good, especially compared to fourth, third, second and first.

Also I gave an out in the discussion you wanted to keep going I felt obliged to follow suit, if you have an issue with it then next time ask that you wish to not continue. It's a forum it fosters debate and discourse all the time, why you feel the need to bring up me arguing to some greater extend than your willing to go is beyond me.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
If that were the case then they'd make sure that the engine manufacture would get those engines out across the board as well. However, since we know that isn't the case since last year different engines were used over multiple races and not seen until the following year in testing or even the first race, I doubt the FIA care all that much. Or rather haven't shown to care before or since.
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An intra-team battle is very different to the relationship between supplier and customer. The FIA may not care too much, but with the relationship between Hamilton and Rosberg under scrutiny, it has the potential to get very messy, very quickly. The last thing that Mercedes will want is an FIA observer in the pits, like McLaren at Brazil in 2007.

The best thing that Mercedes can do is either shelve the engine updates, or give Hamilton and Rosberg a batch of penalties at the same time to relegate them to the back of the grid and avoid any accusations of favouritism.
 
prisonermonkeys
An intra-team battle is very different to the relationship between supplier and customer. The FIA may not care too much, but with the relationship between Hamilton and Rosberg under scrutiny, it has the potential to get very messy, very quickly. The last thing that Mercedes will want is an FIA observer in the pits, like McLaren at Brazil in 2007.
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Yeah you have a point about that, but as I said it's a trend that has been going on and it's not just Mercedes, so it's strange you highlight them only really.

The best thing that Mercedes can do is either shelve the engine updates, or give Hamilton and Rosberg a batch of penalties at the same time to relegate them to the back of the grid and avoid any accusations of favouritism.
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Why shelve them, there is no guarantee that a driver getting said engine is automatically going to have improved performance over the other. And with such things as set boosts and fuel flow, whatever gains are being made with each phase is probably in fractions as far as power is concerned. The best place to test is on the track, and if they only have one due to wanting to be sure before retooling or converting, then why not? It's the same argument that was made when certain drivers would claim their team mates got new aero bits to test.
 
CarreraGT
Hasn't he only had the one bad start? He's usually pretty consistent, and it was Rosberg who lost the German GP due to a bad start...
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Did you miss the starts he made in the first four races of the season?

In other news, this was the first F1 Grand Prix that was live on terrestrial television that I didn't watch. I'm losing interest in F1. :ouch:
 

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