2016 Formula 1 Großer Preis von Deutschland

21,321
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
He applied the throttle to try and make the run around the outside work after watching Rosberg go deep but it was too late, he should have backed out or cut back on Rosberg.

He had the right to be on the race track, it's up to Rosberg to give him space.



Rosberg takes way too long to turn in and effectively blocked the track. He just drives straight past the apex with a straight wheel. You can't do that.
 
2,998
England
England
Peasantslayer
He had the right to be on the race track, it's up to Rosberg to give him space.



Rosberg takes way too long to turn in and effectively blocked the track. He just drives straight past the apex with a straight wheel. You can't do that.

He was on the verge of locking wasn't he? That's what Davidson reckoned, partly due to Max's early dummy turn in.
 

homeforsummer

Bonbonbonbons!
Premium
26,927
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Rosberg takes way too long to turn in and effectively blocked the track. He just drives straight past the apex with a straight wheel. You can't do that.
Didn't watch the race, but that move looks fairly clear-cut from that angle. I'd be very surprised if Rosberg didn't have enough grip to make that turn more or less normally.

That said, Verstappen's making a bit of a habit of this aggressive defending and late moves. Only a matter of time before it causes some sort of incident.
He was on the verge of locking wasn't he? That's what Davidson reckoned, partly due to Max's early dummy turn in.
Maybe it's the camera angle, but even if he locked an inside wheel it looks like he could have turned earlier than that. I think it's fairly notable that he didn't even slightly lock a wheel there - if he was really on the raggedy edge due to Verstappen's move, I'd expect an actual lock-up, rather than a near lock-up.
 
21,321
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
He was on the verge of locking wasn't he? That's what Davidson reckoned, partly due to Max's early dummy turn in.

It's still his fault, nobody forced him to brake so late that he couldn't make the turn in. As @Bo said earlier you can't just brake late, steam straight on and block the driver on the outside from turning in. That's not how you overtake.

ldbWJq5.jpg

yQc3r3b.jpg

L9aQKq7.jpg


At that point it's very similar to Austria, he's gone straight on and left nowhere for Max to go but off the track. So as the stewards decided he has forced Max off the track.

Max's move on the way in was a bit dodgy but that doesn't negate what happened next.
 

MUSC4EVER

The story continues....
Premium
14,389
Wales
wrexham
jameskent86451
Jamobomb86
Decent race, not sure what to make of the Rosberg incident, at first I thought it was deserved but now I have seen a number of replays I think it was quite harsh, terrible day for Nico though, well done to RedBull, Ferrari going backwards again.
 

Sureboss

Tanned and Lipstick'd
Premium
15,396
United Kingdom
UK
Didn't watch the race, but that move looks fairly clear-cut from that angle. I'd be very surprised if Rosberg didn't have enough grip to make that turn more or less normally.

That said, Verstappen's making a bit of a habit of this aggressive defending and late moves. Only a matter of time before it causes some sort of incident.

I don't think verstappen defended aggressively, he moved slightly, but not exactly much and it was just one move.

Rosberg didn't attempt to turn until he was a couple of car widths from the arc, he did what he did in Austria but with less crashing. Though I reckon even without the penalty that red bull would have been on him.

Good points for McLaren, they've got a chance of beating Toro Rosso in the constructors.

Decent race.
 

homeforsummer

Bonbonbonbons!
Premium
26,927
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
I don't think verstappen defended aggressively
Not in this particular move, though perhaps enough to make Rosberg switch to apex-repellant mode. But generally, Verstappen's been cutting it pretty fine recently. It's great seeing him race and he's making some good overtaking moves, but when the shoe's on the other foot he's certainly pushing the "one defensive move" concept a little far.
 

prisonermonkeys

Be Fearless
Premium
33,155
Peru
Hammerhead Garage
Well, that was the most boring race that I have seen for a while. Gave up when Rosberg got the penalty seeing as how the stewards have been wildly inconsistent all weekend (inventing a penalty for Sirotkin, disqualifying Gasly on a technicality, ignoring Hughes passing under VSC, ignoring Rowland's dangerous driving, so it shouldn't have surprised me that aggressive driving is okay one week, but not the next).

I think that the culprit was repealing the radio ban. Sure, it's nice to hear pit-to-car conversations, but now teams can tell drivers exactly what to do to manage their races and it just reduces everything to a glorified time trial.
 
6,148
United States
Washington State
OutlawQuadrant
It's still his fault, nobody forced him to brake so late that he couldn't make the turn in. As @Bo said earlier you can't just brake late, steam straight on and block the driver on the outside from turning in. That's not how you overtake.

ldbWJq5.jpg

yQc3r3b.jpg

L9aQKq7.jpg


At that point it's very similar to Austria, he's gone straight on and left nowhere for Max to go but off the track. So as the stewards decided he has forced Max off the track.

Max's move on the way in was a bit dodgy but that doesn't negate what happened next.
Hard for me to decide whether Rosberg intended to pull off that maneuver. Unlike Austria, I could tell Rosberg was coming into that corner a little hot. Then again, he could've done that deliberately, gambling Max would not turn into him.

In the end Max didn't but he ended up being forced off track before the corner exit but more importantly, losing the battle for the position as a result. I believe those two factors combined is what resulted in the penalty.

Of course, Rosberg should never have been in that position in the first place. Like I mentioned last week, these are the type of weekends where he must capitalize on his qualifying advantage. Had he been able to hold the top spot into T1 and won the last two races, he'd be ahead of Hamilton by at least 15 points right now. Instead, Hamilton leads him by 19, a swing of 34 points. Not to say that Rosberg can't win the WDC but Hamilton has shown over the years that he can pull out of deep holes and overcome over the span of a reason better than Rosberg. In other words, Rosberg doesn't have as large a margin for error.

As for the other drivers, nice to see Ricciardo in better form today. Red Bull must've been giddy today being able to get ahead of Rosberg and keep him off the podium, even if they were aided by that penalty. Conversely, Ferrari can't be happy with how the season's unfolding. Now third in the constructors and Max is close enough to jump both Vettel and Kimi in the WDC. A shame that Alonso couldn't score points and I have a feeling drivers on the grid wish they could paint Gutierrez's car a deep shade of blue.
 
22,532
United States
Arizona
HamiltonMP427
Thank goodness we have at least 2 drivers left on the grid with some personality and humor. (The other driver being Vettel)

I don't agree with this, we've seen plenty of joking from Jenson, Alonso, Lewis at times, Sainz has a nice personality, Perez is hilarious when you give him a podium just like DR. There is plenty of it there, tell the FOM and the Media to lighten up and maybe some of these guys that are worried will show up. DR and Vettel just are that much more outgoing I think. But the funniest podium post-race I've seen was Vettel-Lewis and Perez flirting with the track girls and all making jokes.

Once again this was good too, cause it's not just DR it's Max and Lewis also joking that makes it even funnier.
 
Last edited:

DQuaN

Goat of the Year
Premium
12,284
United Kingdom
Ealing-London
Hard for me to decide whether Rosberg intended to pull off that maneuver. Unlike Austria, I could tell Rosberg was coming into that corner a little hot. Then again, he could've done that deliberately, gambling Max would not turn into him.

This.

Only Nico really knows how that corner went down. It looked too much like Austia for me. He kept the wheel straight for a very, very long time forcing Max off the track. How much of that was down to having to get the car slowed down and how much of it was to push Max off, only Nico will know.
 

niky

Karma Chameleon
Moderator
23,800
Philippines
Philippines
This.

Only Nico really knows how that corner went down. It looked too much like Austia for me. He kept the wheel straight for a very, very long time forcing Max off the track. How much of that was down to having to get the car slowed down and how much of it was to push Max off, only Nico will know.

Before the little swerve on Max, it looked like Nico was intent on drag racing Max into the corner and engaging him in a late braking battle.

This lends credence to the idea that Nico ran out of front end grip... his chosen braking point would have worked if they both followed that initial line. As it was, Max's swerve forced him to hit the apex at the wrong angle. He was then carrying too much speed for that angle and braking too late. Once the car started plowing, he had to let off some lock and get it settled before he could turn.

At that point, he had a good excuse, but there will always be questions as to whether he could have stayed on the brakes a bit longer or turned a bit earlier.

-

I feel the stewards should have given him the benefit of the doubt, but the similarity to Austria prejudiced them against him, I guess. Whether it was a naughty move or not, I would have let it slide, as Max was already completely slowed at that point and had the option of slotting in behind him rather than trying to drive around his nose.
 

prisonermonkeys

Be Fearless
Premium
33,155
Peru
Hammerhead Garage
Max was already completely slowed at that point and had the option of slotting in behind him rather than trying to drive around his nose.
And it would be easy for a driver in Verstappen's position to exaggerate how much the block had affected them and deliberately run wide - especially if they feel that they can't fight back. The Formula One equivalent of diving.
 
54
Antarctica
Antarctica
What puzzles me is how Lewis pushed Nico off track at the first corner in Austin last year, in nearly the exact same way, and to take the lead no less; and he got off scot-free. Yet there he disadvantaged Nico a lot more, than Nico disadvantaged Max yesterday. Frankly the stewards need to be more consistent on such moves as whilst their stance on them varies, drivers will keep deploying such tactics, knowing that they could potentially get away with it! :rolleyes:
 
6,148
United States
Washington State
OutlawQuadrant
Before the little swerve on Max, it looked like Nico was intent on drag racing Max into the corner and engaging him in a late braking battle.

This lends credence to the idea that Nico ran out of front end grip... his chosen braking point would have worked if they both followed that initial line. As it was, Max's swerve forced him to hit the apex at the wrong angle. He was then carrying too much speed for that angle and braking too late. Once the car started plowing, he had to let off some lock and get it settled before he could turn.

At that point, he had a good excuse, but there will always be questions as to whether he could have stayed on the brakes a bit longer or turned a bit earlier.

-

I feel the stewards should have given him the benefit of the doubt, but the similarity to Austria prejudiced them against him, I guess. Whether it was a naughty move or not, I would have let it slide, as Max was already completely slowed at that point and had the option of slotting in behind him rather than trying to drive around his nose.
Did the incident in Austria play a factor in the decision? Possibly. Then again, it makes me wonder whether Rosberg would've been penalized anyways if Hamilton had gone off track at mid-corner. Now, in Germany, Rosberg's maneuvers took away Max's entitled racing room but not at the corner exit where we already know that's allowed but before that point. To me, the stewards are saying Rosberg went too far, regardless of intent.
What puzzles me is how Lewis pushed Nico off track at the first corner in Austin last year, in nearly the exact same way, and to take the lead no less; and he got off scot-free. Yet there he disadvantaged Nico a lot more, than Nico disadvantaged Max yesterday. Frankly the stewards need to be more consistent on such moves as whilst their stance on them varies, drivers will keep deploying such tactics, knowing that they could potentially get away with it! :rolleyes:
My interpretation is at which point one driver pushes out another and whether the driver is making a conscious effort to aim for the apex. Believe me, that maneuver is nothing new:



Rosberg may have pushed his luck too far, however, by taking away that racing room too early. That's how I look at it.
 
Last edited:

DesertPenguin09

(Banned)
7,398
United States
Long Island, New York
DesertPenguin09
If there was any hint of a lock-up from Rosberg then I'd believe he was on the edge because his braking zone was compromised.
 
54
Antarctica
Antarctica
@outlaw4rc The Imola 2004 incident between Schumacher and Montoya that you've shared, is a different sort. There Michael shut the door on Juan as they exited a corner; a move that has long been regarded as tough, but fair. However Nico yesterday (and in Austria), as with Lewis in Austin last season, blocked their opponent from turning in on entry. Thus, forcing them off. Difference is Rosberg received a penalty for it, and Hamilton didn't. Yet if it is so frowned upon, it should be a penalty every single time, regardless of who does it.
 

niky

Karma Chameleon
Moderator
23,800
Philippines
Philippines
What puzzles me is how Lewis pushed Nico off track at the first corner in Austin last year, in nearly the exact same way, and to take the lead no less; and he got off scot-free. Yet there he disadvantaged Nico a lot more, than Nico disadvantaged Max yesterday. Frankly the stewards need to be more consistent on such moves as whilst their stance on them varies, drivers will keep deploying such tactics, knowing that they could potentially get away with it! :rolleyes:

As @outlaw4rc says... the interpretation is always that the driver ahead is entitled to the line at corner exit. This is what justifies the penalty on Rosberg in Austria (because Lewis was ahead on the outside), and the expected lack of penalty on Rosberg here (because Nico was ahead on the inside).

Lewis in Austin was marginal, but Lewis was slightly ahead at the apex, which is likely why they let it go.


Here, it's a bit of a conundrum, because Nico is fully ahead by that apex, and even if he is pushing wide, he is in front of Max and Max has the choice to back away rather than to go wide.

EDIT: Regarding turn-in... the leading driver gets to dictate the turn in as long as he leaves at least one car's width of space at the apex.



The only issue, really, is, as Christian Horner puts it, that Nico just didn't sell that move very well. From Sky:


"The problem is [Rosberg] did a pretty bad job of it," he told Sky Sports F1. "The golden rule in a job like that is lock your fronts up and look as if you can't stop. The problem is he looked like he was driving to Cologne, and that's a bit naughty.

If Rosberg had just locked his tires a little bit, he could have sold that move. Of course, he could have just slowed a bit, angled for a better corner exit, waited for Max to jump, and run him off the edge in a smoother and more steward-acceptable fashion.
 
Last edited: