2016 Formula 1 Shell Belgian Grand PrixFormula 1 

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Commenting that the engine penalty system is wrong is not racism.
The grid penalties should just be carried over to the next race if they can't all be served.

bored of PMs racism towards Hamilton now
 
Jimlaad43
The grid penalties should just be carried over to the next race if they can't all be served.
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That was the system last year, and it was a problem because it was confusing. Say you qualified fourteenth and took a ten-place penalty for a component change; you got demoted to twentieth for the race, then got an extra four-place penalty at the next race because you couldn't take the full ten places at once. Things got even more confusing when the FIA started issuing drive-through penalties for further changes.

My system keep the spirit of that rule, but simplifies it either one of two ways:

1) Once they exceed their season allocation, teams are limited to a single power unit change per Grand Prix unless they have a failure in the brand-new component(s), which they would then need to prove to the FIA that it was a genuine failure. This would stop teams from building up a stockpile of components - the way Mercedes have - while taking a comparatively soft penalty, and promote the philosophy of building engine parts that last.

2) Once they exceed their season allocation, teams are free to make as many changes as they wish, but each new component brings with it a penalty at subsequent races. Hamilton took a fifteen place penalty in FP1, another fifteen in FP2, and has just been confirmed as taking a further twenty-five places. Since he obviously cannot take a fifty-five place penalty in Belgium, he should take fifteen in Belgium, fifteen in Italy, and twenty-five in Singapore/Malaysia (whichever one comes first).

Jimlaad43
bored of PMs racism towards Hamilton now
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The reasons for my dislike of Hamilton are well-documented, and have nothing to do with his race. You're welcome to double-check all of my comments on the subject if you wish.

I would be making my comments about the penalty system regardless of who was taking the penalties. I think Mercedes are exploiting a loophole that enables them to take a twenty-one place penalty for something that should cost them fifty-five places.
 
Anyone remember all the complaining at Belgium last year when Button and Alonso got a total of 105 grid place penalties?

Speaking of Alonso, he's got a 35 grid place penalty for Spa, for using a sixth complete set of six engine components, the massive cheat.
 
Tired Tyres
What is the point giving the driver a grid penalty for something that isn't his fault? The whole engine restriction rule is fundamentally rubbish.
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Because it's a team sport. These penalties apply to the car they're driving, not the driver themselves.

In an ideal world there would be no engine restrictions but without them the gulf between the top spenders and the lesser spending is only going to get bigger. We need cost restrictions in there somewhere.
 
Famine
Anyone remember all the complaining at Belgium last year when Button and Alonso got a total of 105 grid place penalties?
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Which is what my system is trying to avoid. You get one additional component change per Grand Prix. If you need more than one, you've got bigger problems than a grid penalty.

Famine
Speaking of Alonso, he's got a 35 grid place penalty for Spa, for using a sixth complete set of six engine components, the massive cheat.
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Under my system, that would be fine because he made all those changes at once. If he went and took a second power unit for the sake of building a stockpile, then he'd be in trouble.
 
This is silly !! Meraedes & Hamilton should be penalized for abusing the rules for those engine changes to gain an advantage over the rest of the season 👎
 
Betty blue
This is silly !! Meraedes & Hamilton should be penalized for abusing the rules for those engine changes to gain an advantage over the rest of the season 👎
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...You say this is silly, I'll fix that and say this is F1. Where loop holes are the primary bread and butter of a teams success. Ferrari found a great loop hole in the 2012 season that nearly helped their driver clinch the WDC, at the expense of their other. RBR is probably the greatest loop hole maker in modern F1, and even the beloved Brawn as well. McLaren have done it and on and on and on.

What advantage did he gain really? The only person that can really flip a table and say "this is unfair" is his team mate at this point. Since 9 races are remaining and he still drives the fastest car on the grid, isn't going to lose him second place even, if penalties were broken up more as suggested.
 
Dennisch
Well, that's kinda the problem being discussed. The rules allow this. So Mercedes isn't abusing them.
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They are ! Changing fresh engines with no issue at all just to stock up Hamilton with engines is not abusing ? That's even unfair to his teammate !
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
...You say this is silly, I'll fix that and say this is F1. Where loop holes are the primary bread and butter of a teams success. Ferrari found a great loop hole in the 2012 season that nearly helped their driver clinch the WDC, at the expense of their other. RBR is probably the greatest loop hole maker in modern F1, and even the beloved Brawn as well. McLaren have done it and on and on and on.

What advantage did he gain really? The only person that can really flip a table and say "this is unfair" is his team mate at this point. Since 9 races are remaining and he still drives the fastest car on the grid, isn't going to lose him second place even, if penalties were broken up more as suggested.
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The FIA has allocated 5 engines per driver at the season, more than that should require a grid penalty. Mercedes has given hamilton 7 engines with just one penalty. Even if others has done it before that doesn't justify it !
 
On a different subject... As much as I'm a fan of Magnussen, he's utterly useless at checking his mirrors. I've seen so may practice sessions this season where he ambles about the track, blissfully unaware that he's getting in the way of everyone.
 
prisonermonkeys
Under my system
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Under mine, any penalty that can't be served by grid position demotion because there are not enough positions left would be added to their finishing position for that race - and any that couldn't be served because there aren't enough positions left after the race are added to their grid position for the next race, and so on until the penalty debt is served.

Betty blue
The FIA has allocated 5 engines per driver at the season, more than that should require a grid penalty. Mercedes has given hamilton 7 engines with just one penalty. Even if others has done it before that doesn't justify it !
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Actually it does justify it. It's literally what 'justify' means - the rules allow it and everyone can do it.

It's the rules that allow it that are the problem.
 
Betty blue
The FIA has allocated 5 engines per driver at the season, more than that should require a grid penalty. Mercedes has given hamilton 7 engines with just one penalty. Even if others has done it before that doesn't justify it !
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...Yeah you repeating your stance and basically typing what most of us have read already, doesn't progress the argument anymore than you did prior. Once again it's F1, the loop hole is there, the FIA is bad with being descriptive in half the rule book they've created. You want to cry foul, do so at the FIA's expense not the players that have played within the rules given.
 
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Is it just me or has Kimi been slightly more on form lately than Vettel, and I'm talking about when bad luck doesn't strike Vettel?
 
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Am I the only one finding the whole thing confusing?!

Sky just showed a segment explaining how and why Hamilton ended up with all this and I'm still none the wiser....
 
MUSC4EVER
Am I the only one finding the whole thing confusing?!

Sky just showed a segment explaining how and why Hamilton ended up with all this and I'm still none the wiser....
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It's typical FIA rule making that has a loophole in areas that aren't well written, basically the rule doesn't state the teams can't change out a perfectly good engine. And considering it was used prior and still in working order, they can use it again if need be without facing penalty cause it was a replaced engine that took a penalty prior.

What the FIA should have done is actually made these rules less laughable when McHonda was stacking up grid penalties in one race knowing they'd face no repercussions at later venues unless they needed new parts. I mean in reality Mercedes are just doing what McLaren did with some variation. As I said prior the FIA sets the tone.
 
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Famine
Under mine, any penalty that can't be served by grid position demotion because there are not enough positions left would be added to their finishing position for that race - and any that couldn't be served because there aren't enough positions left after the race are added to their grid position for the next race, and so on until the penalty debt is served.
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That suffers from the same problem as last year's system: it's too complicated.
 
55 places for Lewis then, will he get some sort of time penalty in the race or does the rest of the places get carried over??
 
prisonermonkeys
That suffers from the same problem as last year's system: it's too complicated.
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It would work better as a time penalty, not a position one. So if Hamilton gets pole, he takes 21 of his 55 grid place penalties to start 22nd and then has 34 seconds added to his race time.
 
There are a lot of people at Spa. So many Dutch flags.

Go Max. Make us proud.
 
prisonermonkeys
That suffers from the same problem as last year's system: it's too complicated.
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If people understand baseball they can understand that a 55 place penalty on means a 55 place demotion.

Although they may wonder how putting a new engine in means 55 place penalty at all. It's a rather arbitrary number and to be honest putting a maximum limit on components but allowing people to ignore the limit in exchange for a penalty is baffling all by itself. It's like saying you can only have 11 players on the pitch, but if you need a 12th you get a 35 goal penalty*.

As for complications, we now have Ericsson, Hamilton and Alonso all out in Q1 and all facing penalties (10, 55 and 30 places respectively) which will put them all last - and Gutierrez may yet be in the mix with his 5 place penalty. If people can understand why those four actually start in the order they will I think "Well if he can't serve all of his penalty on the grid, they'll add to his race position" won't be that hard to grasp.

*And, if the FIA was in charge of FIFA, you can play 12, 13 or 14 players in every game to the end of the season and only get the penalty in the first match...
 
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Ten races ago Kyvatt qualified sixth and finished on the podium, he seems to be sliding away
 

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