2018 VTB Russian Grand PrixFormula 1 

  • Thread starter Jimlaad43
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I take back what i said yesterday....this was not an exciting race at all and kinda falls into "one to forget" category....there were some moments but overall a bit disappointing. Suzuka is not known to be a good track for overtaking though the possibility is still there, I hope if we'll be treated to a bit more excitement
 
I take back what i said yesterday....this was not an exciting race at all and kinda falls into "one to forget" category....there were some moments but overall a bit disappointing. Suzuka is not known to be a good track for overtaking though the possibility is still there, I hope if we'll be treated to a bit more excitement
I think Suzuka will give us a good quali session... but after lap one I reckon it’ll be a snooze fest. I can’t remember the last time we had a good race there
 
It's surprising that a lot of people will change their minds had that team order was made by Ferrari rather than Merc.

It's understandable if the gap in points were tiny, but there's huge difference in points, and most importantly you will still gain on your main rival.

Another point is that it is become sad how media and "some fans" have no "sporting spirit " nor respect towards sportsmen. Ferrari and Vettel gave us one of most enjoyable seasons and it's sad to see the lack of respect and appreciation.

One because Ferrari has a history of deciding a number 1 and 2 driver early on in the season. Thus when they pull team orders like they did very early on and then claim, no were not at that stage yet, people are going to be annoyed. Ferrari have sacrificed WCC's for WDC. Why that is and why they find it more important than showing the world they build the best car is beyond me, but that is what it is. Mercedes at least have been forthcoming and said they will let their drivers race, the point that it becomes clear that one is more dominant than the other and they rather preserve the constructor championship as best possible is when they stop them from racing.

For the user claiming this breaks the spirit of racing, I can agree, but that's not a logical written document that has to be abide by. I don't like that Bottas had to give this up, and I'm a Lewis fan. I do understand from a logic basis that this is a multi 100 million dollar sport and teams will utilize orders to maximize the best outcome their drivers can provide from gp to gp. This isn't the 70s (and even then there were team politics) where racers fight to the bitter end wheel to wheel. It does happen, but only between teams and only when those teams have cars of equal measure.
 
I’ve never liked Hamilton but I’ve really seen a new side of him since Bottas joined the team. He’s a lot more of a team player and sees just how much the entire team is behind him. The move on the podium letting Valtteri onto the top step with him was classy. It wasn’t his call and he made that very clear.

He was like that before Bottas came, it was seen with Jenson too and another former Finn team mate he had. Sure he is showing even more fondness for Bottas than those guys. Nico was different, Nico clearly can be as much of a diva as Lewis can and plays the nice guy routine to get less anguish from fans. It played very sour for the team dynamic, but gave fans something fun to talk about. This is the opposite of that.

Also it was more bitter between Lewis and Nico because they were so closely matched at times, and thus it's hard to treat your team member who is your closest rival for a championship as anything but the enemy.
 
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If Ferrari weren't successful in undercutting Hamilton, or more specifically, if Mercedes had reacted better to the undercut, chances are the call to move Bottas over might not have been given.

I'd be peeved if I was Bottas, sure, but for the long term goals it was the right call. Some might call it unfair (or unethical? :odd:), but it's not just the drivers' championship that matters in this game.
 
Agreed. I think this also paints Rosberg in a new light. He was definitely a supremely talented driver, if not quite on the same level as Hamilton, certainly a top echelon driver of the past 10 years
Pfffffff!

Nope. I'm asking you to make your case for why it's "unethical" and "dirty", as it doesn't seem to meet either quality.

Why is it unethical/dirty to do something explicitly allowed in the rules.


It's part of racing. How can it ruin racing when it's part of it?

The drivers are part of a team. The team wants to with both championships, so it can display both trophies in its HQ.

The order of first and second doesn't affect the manufacturers' championship, the change in positions of the drivers doesn't affect it at all, so it can't "ruin" the drivers' championship for the manufacturers' one. It's a move designed to ensure they have the best chance to take the drivers' championship too.


And team orders are part of racing.

And Mercedes did it once. Force India did it twice in this race. And neither did it by "unexpectedly" mucking up a pit stop.
And Merc. has put so much hard work and money to get to where they are. They know at this point the WCC and the WDC is theirs to lose if they can just not blow it. So why risk it on letting their drivers crash while trying to pass each other at 300kph. Why risk their lives and the points trying to race 2 identical cars? Its a team after all so race like one.
 
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I don't get it. Why didn't the Mercedes switch back, like they did in Hungary last year? What changed?
Circumstance. In Hungary, the positions were swapped because they were trying to pass the Ferraris on track which were driving slow because Vettel's steering wheel was playing up. Bottas was asked to move aside and let Hamilton, on better tyres, to try and pass them. he failed to, so gave it back.

This race, Mercedes wanted to make sure Vettel didn't pass Hamilton and made sure his championship advantage was 50 points not 43.
 
I don't see the difference. At the end of the day it's points gained/lost for the championship. And last year Hamilton needed them more.
 
I don't see the difference. At the end of the day it's points gained/lost for the championship. And last year Hamilton needed them more.
Toto explained it.

For Hungry there was still half the season left. But now there are only 5 more races and a 50 point gap makes them ‘safe’ to two possible DNF’s.
They want both titles. When you are in charge of a team of hundreds of people with a budget of over €100m you work to make the best of every situation, that’s what they did.

As Lewis said, if they loose the WDC by 2 points and they had let Bottas win, they wouldn’t have done a good job and worked together as a single team.
 
Bottas will be thanked a lot behind closed doors for this. I can see that if Hamilton wins the title early, he will repay the favour and give Bottas a win if they're in a 1-2. This isn't over. That said, be prepared for Bottas to give Hamilton places if he's ahead this season until the title is won.

The amount of salt online for Team Orders is exactly the same as we've had for the Halo, tarmac runoffs and a load of other "controversial" things. Just stop and think of why it exists, not what it is and you'll find yourself A: understanding what's going on and B: enjoying the season instead of moaning about nothing.
 
The amount of salt online for Team Orders is exactly the same as we've had for the Halo, tarmac runoffs and a load of other "controversial" things. Just stop and think of why it exists, not what it is and you'll find yourself A: understanding what's going on and B: enjoying the season instead of moaning about nothing.

Think also, about how Ferrari totally ****ed their title hopes at Monza, when they should have done exactly what Merc have... maximising the team to get the best possible result.
 
I don't get it. Why didn't the Mercedes switch back, like they did in Hungary last year? What changed?
Did you notice which significant user of team orders criticised Mercedes for switching them back again at the time? They are the team that races red cars.

In other news, anybody here run a major manufacturers F1 team and control a nine figure budget? Would you like to not impose team orders and lose the championship and then go see your board of directors explain how you could have won but.....?

Face it. If Bottas was on it every race instead of once in a while he wouldn't be in this situation.
 
Team Orders are a necessary evil, like DRS and the Halo. Look at the German GP where Kimi Raikkonen was given the most coded but obvious "get out of the way" message to let Vettel through. That was exactly the same, and we only forgot about it because Vettel bottled it later in the race. F1 tried banning team orders, but it didn't work because you can't ban something like that. You just play around with the strategy to get one driver ahead of the other, or do a "pre-race agreement" or just say "Fernando is faster than you". You may not like it, but moaning won't solve anything.
 
While I’m not a fan of team orders, one thing we have to understand is that, an F1 team is not couple of guys building a race car and racing for fun. Those are couple hundred million $/€/£ (some nearly half billion) businesses.

But this itself is not the reason for team orders. What this much money in team means, is that they have their superstar driver in whom they invest 30-50 million a year and feel the need to protect, so they hire a second-tier driver that can’t himself put on a proper run for championship but is fast enough to outrace their #1 driver once in a while, that’s the reason for team orders, it just doesn’t make sense to risk those couple points that won’t mean anything to their #2, but could mean a championship to Lewis, as 50 points is just one race ending collision and one mechanical dnf, not something unheard of. I’m so glad that actually Ferrari of all teams went for it and hired Charles next year, maybe it will force Merc’s hand to actuallly take some risks with their driver selection
 
For Hungry there was still half the season left. But now there are only 5 more races.
Hadn't considered there were 9 races left instead of 5. I guess you could arguably think Bottas still had a shot at WDC last year.

Did you notice which significant user of team orders criticised Mercedes for switching them back again at the time? They are the team that races red cars.
I didn't actually. What did they say? Still, are you saying Mercedes didn't switch back in revenge to some criticism from Ferrari a year ago?
 
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is that they have their superstar driver in whom they invest 30-50 million a year and feel the need to protect, so they hire a second-tier driver that can’t himself put on a proper run for championship
Are you high?
They had Lewis and Nico fighting it out for 3-4 years, they renewed both of their contracts during their battling. They signed Bottas as he was the best option when Nico surprised everyone and decided to retire after winning in 2016. Last year he did a very good job and managed to out qualify Lewis a few times and even win three races, which considering the late switch and the sudden huge step up in pressure and environment from Williams, was very impressive.

When Mercedes resigned him for next year they did so when the team was working well together and Bottas was doing well, while Mercedes once again found themselves on the back foot in terms of raw performance.
He could/should have won Bahrain, China and Baku and followed those strong finishes with two 2nd places before Canada. He then got taken out by Vettel at France, destroying half of his car a mechanical DNF at Austria, which he was running well at (I think leading?) and then a solid result at Silverstone.
Up that that point his season had looked solid, he'd been unlucky and perhaps lacks the self confidence he needs but at the point in which they resigned him he looked the best option. He was fast, reliable and worked well in the team. At the time non-of the 'top-tier' drivers were available, bar Alonso, which wasn't ever going to happen.

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I’m so glad that actually Ferrari of all teams went for it and hired Charles next year, maybe it will force Merc’s hand to actuallly take some risks with their driver selection

I think this has more to do with the lack of faith they have in Sebastian to be able to beat Lewis. They have given Seb everything he wanted, more power within the team, more money than Red Bull ever offered him, a compliant team mate he likes and the best car on the grid. Yet Lewis is still beating him and still faster than him.

I see 2019 going for Ferrari like 2007 went for Mclaren, I can't see Lewis being challenged by Ferrari anymore now than he already is.
 
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Team Orders are a necessary evil, like DRS and the Halo. Look at the German GP where Kimi Raikkonen was given the most coded but obvious "get out of the way" message to let Vettel through. That was exactly the same, and we only forgot about it because Vettel bottled it later in the race. F1 tried banning team orders, but it didn't work because you can't ban something like that. You just play around with the strategy to get one driver ahead of the other, or do a "pre-race agreement" or just say "Fernando is faster than you". You may not like it, but moaning won't solve anything.
This is all true - but... there is something seriously wrong when a driver doesn't even celebrate a race win and looks/sounds embarrassed after the race.

Team orders make perfect sense from a manufacturer's perspective. But from a fan's perspective, and (apparently) from a driver's perspective too, they are a bad thing and hugely detract from the spectacle. Team orders were banned precisely because of the hugely negative impact they can have - not just on the race weekend in question, but for the integrity of the sport itself. Lewis Hamilton knows this, and despite benefitting from them at a crucial point in the season, he does at least appear to agree with the assessment they shouldn't happen in any guise. Teams ought to respect the integrity of the race/sport itself and butt out, lest they wish for fans to cry foul and be treated to the embarrassing spectacle of the top two finishers in a race refusing to celebrate.

Each race in the F1 calendar is called a 'Grand Prix' for a reason - but team orders have made this particular 'big prize' an embarrassment that is hard to deny - to his credit, Lewis didn't even try to hide his embarrassment on the top step of the podium.
 
Are you high?
They had Lewis and Nico fighting it out for 3-4 years, they renewed both of their contracts during their battling. They signed Bottas as he was the best option when Nico surprised everyone and decided to retire after winning in 2016. Last year he did a very good job and managed to out qualify Lewis a few times and even win three races, which considering the late switch and the sudden huge step up in pressure and environment from Williams, was very impressive.

Nico was there already, he was with them ever since Merc bought out Brawn GP, so it wouldn’t be too nice of them to dump him because of Lewis.
 
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Nico was there already, he was with them ever since Merc bought out Brawn GP, so it wouldn’t be too nice of them to dump him because of Lewis.
But it would have made their lives easier, especially if as you said, they wanted a clear number 1 and 2...
 
But it would have made their lives easier, especially if as you said, they wanted a clear number 1 and 2...
Back in 2014-2016 they couldn't care less about this, they were under no threat from other teams, they could have them fight, they won't do it again, or they would, they could sign either Ocon, Ricciardo or Alonso, they didn't. What does it tell us?
 
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