2018 VTB Russian Grand PrixFormula 1

[Famine]

You know what? Let's get rid of the cars and the drivers. Let's put all of the team managers in a meeting, and have them together decide the outcome. Because that is part of racing.

Really? I don't see that in the rule book. Which section is it?

Your argument is

Nope. You don't understand. I'm not making any case. I'm asking you to make yours that it is "unethical" (to do something within the sport's code of ethics) and "dirty".

My arguments are:
1. It goes against the spirit of the sport (which is racing, not team management. Note that spirit and rules are two different things).

You need to show that something specifically allowed in the rules, after long not being allowed, is against the spirit.

2. If Lewis was faster, he should have passed Bottas.
3. If Lewis was threatened by Vettel, but faster than Bottas, then Bottas should have been threatened by Vettel. He wasn't.
4. Lewis is much safer in his championship battle than Bottas is.
5. Swapping the cars makes no difference for the constructors championship.

None of this has anything to do with how "unethical" or "dirty" you think the strategy was. Also Hamilton was able to leave Bottas behind, so while Hamilton was wrecking his tyres behind Bottas, Bottas wasn't wrecking his behind Hamilton.

6. The experience for the fans is ruined.

How?

7. Bottas is being treated as an inferior driver, while he has clearly been strong all weekend.

White-knighting for a well-paid F1 driver is an interesting move, but that doesn't really address why it's "unethical" and "dirty".

8. Even Lewis clearly wasn't happy with the decision in his interview.

It would be foolish of him to be overjoyed and revelling in his victory, but that doesn't address how "unethical" or "dirty" it is.

9. Again, in other sports this would be called matchfixing, and be illegal (not just by the sports rules, but by law). Why would F1 be different?

Matchfixing would be an agreed outcome before the event, in order to rig the event - commonly for financial advantage through gambling. Deciding to focus one's efforts on one team member instead of another in order to maximise the team's chances of success isn't matchfixing, otherwise Ferrari would be a whole heap of trouble (not to mention Red Bull's Multi-21), because that's been the case there from the first green flag of the season for the last thirty years.

On the BBC commentary, the Tour de France was brought up. In that team event, the team chooses one member to win well before the event and all other members are dedicated to making that happen. Is that matchfixing? They're not treated as inferior riders, they're treated as the team required to propel that one rider to victory. It's how that sport is played. It's part of the rules.

And team orders to maximise the chances of winning both trophies is how F1 is played. It's part of the rules.


It'd be a bit of a bum steer if Hamilton had already won the title and Mercedes ordered Bottas to let him by so he could rack up a victory towards his own personal record (I doubt even Schumacher's Ferrari did that), but at this point in time that hasn't happened yet.

Mercedes could have just let Bottas win and spared all this post race awkwardness. Ham would still be leading with a huge margin.

There are only five races left after this, and 125 points remaining. A 50pt lead is enough that the old engines and gearboxes can have one complete failure and still leave an entire race's advantage. A 43pt lead isn't. It just gives Mercedes enough freedom to take a gamble with engine life, and with possibly changing parts for a grid penalty or two and still have both titles. It makes sense.

None of us have to like it, but it's part of the sport and part of the consequences of having these heavily aero-dependent cars with regulated component life and penalties for not meeting them. It's legal, fair, and at least Mercedes and Force India played it out openly and honestly.

 

[Slapped]

Neither Lewis or Valtteri are happy about the situation - that‘s obvious from the post-race interviews

For those that may have missed it, watch the podium again - Lewis offers the 1st place trophy to Valtteri, but Valtteri graciously refuses it - that‘s sportsmanship.

Lewis knows his „win“ is just a technicality in this instance. And both know they‘ve been stuffed by team orders. However I stand by my initial comment in that it was tactically totally correct under the circumstances.

 

[baldgye]

One thing that was surprising was the raw pace of the Red Bull... they could have really spiced up the race (had they not started from the back)

 

[Slapped]

One thing that was surprising was the raw pace of the Red Bull... they could have really spiced up the race (had they not started from the back)

I know - there was a part of me saying „Verstappen, go on son, see if you can make it a zero stopper“. I don‘t even know if that‘s legal, but it would have been awesome if he‘d have won from 19th. He took so much care of those tyres I actually thought it would be a possibility.

Totally man of the race.

 

[PaMu1337]

One thing that was surprising was the raw pace of the Red Bull... they could have really spiced up the race (had they not started from the back)

Had they started from the front, they would have to start on the hypers. That would drastically change their tactics, and their pace.

 

[baldgye]

Had they started from the front, they would have to start on the hypers. That would drastically change their tactics, and their pace.

Only for the opening stint, on the softs Max had comparable pace to the Ferrari’s and Mercs... in qualifying they could have gotten Kimi... with nothing to loose they could have made it uncomfortable for the title contenders

 

[Famine]

For those that may have missed it, watch the podium again - Lewis offers the 1st place trophy to Valtteri, but Valtteri graciously refuses it - that‘s sportsmanship.

That may end up with trouble. In 2002 when Ferrari told Barrichello his career would be done if he didn't hand Schumacher the lead at the end of the sixth race of the season, Schumacher sheepishly gave Barrichello the first place trophy and dragged him onto the top step.

The FIA fined Barrichello, Schumacher and Ferrari $1m for failing to observe the podium regulations.

I know - there was a part of me saying „Verstappen, go on son, see if you can make it a zero stopper“. I don‘t even know if that‘s legal

It's not. Unless the race is officially deemed as "wet", the cars must use two different compounds of tyres within the race session - and if I remember rightly, they must use the tyre for at least one flying lap, which means they can't come in on the last lap and swap for new tyres and take the flag in the pit lane.

And if the race is wet, the tyres won't survive for two hours anyway

 

[GTFan24]

What an absolutely disgusting and pathetic way to win a race.

 

[Slapped]

That may end up with trouble. In 2002 when Ferrari told Barrichello his career would be done if he didn't hand Schumacher the lead at the end of the sixth race of the season, Schumacher sheepishly gave Barrichello the first place trophy and dragged him onto the top step.

The FIA fined Barrichello, Schumacher and Ferrari $1m for failing to observe the podium regulations.

That‘s just wrong.

 

[baldgye]

That‘s just wrong.

To be fair, that whole era of F1 was having difficulty with team orders with Ferrari especially. I imagine it was the only way the FIA had to stop that from ever happening again that season...

 

[Slapped]

What an absolutely disgusting and pathetic way to win a race.

Everybody knows this, including the two drivers involved.

 

[GroupB]

Was GTPlanet around when Rubens was moved over for Michael on a regular basis? If so, some people here have short memories...

 

[baldgye]

Was GTPlanet around when Rubens was moved over for Michael on a regular basis? If so, some people here have short memories...

You don’t even have to look back that far...

 

[Sureboss]

Team orders was inevitable. No one wants to see it, but bottas is well over 100 points behind Lewis and would have been even with this win. He's not in the title fight.

Still, better for him to be driving a rear gunner Mercedes than Williams!

 

[PaMu1337]

You need to show that something specifically allowed in the rules, after long not being allowed, is against the spirit.

The reason the rule was removed was not that they considered it "in the spirit". They still consider it against the spirit (which is why the rule was created in the first place).
The rule was removed because it was impossible to enforce consistently.
Take the example of Alonso vs Massa. You know why no penalties were given then, even though the rule was still active? Because nobody at Ferrari told Massa to let Alonso pass him. They just told him "Fernando is faster than you", which Massa himself interpreted (correctly) as "let him past". The FIA could make no case against this, and realizing this, they opted to remove the rule, as it was a useless rule. (See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_orders )

 

[GroupB]

Title fight never even used to figure into it. One driver was #1, the other was #2, and team orders would be imposed from the season opener if necessary.

 

[baldgye]

The reason the rule was removed was not that they considered it "in the spirit". They still consider it against the spirit (which is why the rule was created in the first place).
The rule was removed because it was impossible to enforce consistently.
Take the example of Alonso vs Massa. You know why no penalties were given then, even though the rule was still active? Because nobody at Ferrari told Massa to let Alonso pass him. They just told him "Fernando is faster than you", which Massa himself interpreted (correctly) as "let him past". The FIA could make no case against this, and realizing this, they opted to remove the rule, as it was a useless rule. (See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_orders )

It was banned because of how embarrassing it was for the FIA in 2002.

If F1 was only raced within ‘the spirit’ of the rules or ‘motor-racing’ half of the greatest ever drivers would be unknowns and some of the greatest cars ever produced and the ensuing battles wouldn’t have ever taken place.

 

[TenEightyOne]

1. It goes against the spirit of the sport (which is racing, not team management. Note that spirit and rules are two different things).

No. The spirit of the sport is born of the sport's history. This is very much in the DNA of F1.

2. If Lewis was faster, he should have passed Bottas.

Quite. He wasn't. It's so often the case that teams field two identical cars.

3. If Lewis was threatened by Vettel, but faster than Bottas, then Bottas should have been threatened by Vettel. He wasn't.

See above. And following another car is very difficult, we've seen that in 2018 particularly.

4. Lewis is much safer in his championship battle than Bottas is.

Bottas isn't in the championship battle.

5. Swapping the cars makes no difference for the constructors championship.

One less problem with doing it then.

6. The experience for the fans is ruined.

Speak for yourself but please don't speak for me.

7. Bottas is being treated as an inferior driver, while he has clearly been strong all weekend.

By being contracted to arguably the world's fastest sportscar? I'm not seeing it, I think you're reading a whole non-existent agenda into Team Orders.

8. Even Lewis clearly wasn't happy with the decision in his interview.

He showed good grace, I'm not sure what else you expect?

Again, in other sports this would be called matchfixing, and be illegal (not just by the sports rules, but by law). Why would F1 be different?

Those sports have their own rules. It's illegal to score F1 points by running around shoulder-barging other people. It's illegal for me to punch someone in a shop while my mate eggs me on from the corner with a bucket full of sponges. That's rule-sets for you.

 

[Jimlaad43]

Just be happy it was done on lap 20-ish when there was a legitimate threat from Vettel, rather than the last lap.

 

[Veinz]

Not surprising, but maybe Mercedes could have handled it better. Post race was just cringy.

Pretty boring race irregardless, I love this track in the game though.

 

[niky]

That‘s just wrong.

It's the rules. The rules that the winner stands on the top step and carries the trophy. To misrepresent the results of the race in front of the cameras, while a nice gesture, is problematic for the sport.

The reason the rule was removed was not that they considered it "in the spirit". They still consider it against the spirit (which is why the rule was created in the first place).
The rule was removed because it was impossible to enforce consistently.
Take the example of Alonso vs Massa. You know why no penalties were given then, even though the rule was still active? Because nobody at Ferrari told Massa to let Alonso pass him. They just told him "Fernando is faster than you", which Massa himself interpreted (correctly) as "let him past". The FIA could make no case against this, and realizing this, they opted to remove the rule, as it was a useless rule. (See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_orders )

Here's the absolutely hypocritical thing about that incident.

Years before that, Massa graciously moved aside for Kimi Raikkonen, which allowed Kimi to clinch his only F1 WDC by one point over Lewis Hamilton. The very next year, Kimi did the same for Massa, who lost to Lewis by just one point.

Neither driver made any bones about it. At all. Because it was the best decision for the team. Massa whined about it when he pulled over for Alonso because reasons, but he didn't whine when the same was done for him or when he did it for a team-mate he liked.

Bottas is feeling hard put on right now, and he should be. But whichever driver has the better chance at WDC at this point in the season has to be given as much support as possible, because things are that close. One might think forty three points is a huge margin. Yes it is, technically... but Lewis merely has to suffer one or two mechanical failures to completely lose the season with a forty three point margin.

It's the correct tactical decision. It sucks for Bottas, but if he were just a little more consistent this year... he would not be in this position. Last year, Bottas finished just 63 points adrift of Lewis. This year, he's over a hundred points behind, with five races left.

 

[Slapped]

It's the rules. The rules that the winner stands on the top step and carries the trophy. To misrepresent the results of the race in front of the cameras, while a nice gesture, is problematic for the sport.

The rules don't make it right, regardless or not of whether it's problematic for the sport.

It's clear for all to see that this would have been Valtteri's win if it were not for the team orders. For the sport to prevent this kind of thing under the guise of rules and regs would be IMO more problematic for the sport in the eyes of the audience than just admitting that, yeah, team orders play a part, and they can unfairly influence race outcomes with regards to the drivers.

Anybody who's ever followed F1 knows team orders come into play, and that drivers do win when they probably shouldn't, plus vice versa. The gesture, as you put it, implies sportsmanship, and if F1 rules forbid sportsmanship then I'm done with F1.

 

[FutureF1]

I’ve never liked Hamilton but I’ve really seen a new side of him since Bottas joined the team. He’s a lot more of a team player and sees just how much the entire team is behind him. The move on the podium letting Valtteri onto the top step with him was classy. It wasn’t his call and he made that very clear.

 

[adb]

I’ve never liked Hamilton but I’ve really seen a new side of him since Bottas joined the team. He’s a lot more of a team player and sees just how much the entire team is behind him. The move on the podium letting Valtteri onto the top step with him was classy. It wasn’t his call and he made that very clear.

I think it’s just him not feeling threatened by Valtteri, if he was at least as fast as Rosberg and stood his ground, there would be none of this Lewis’ new side

 

[sems4arsenal]

I’ve never liked Hamilton but I’ve really seen a new side of him since Bottas joined the team. He’s a lot more of a team player and sees just how much the entire team is behind him. The move on the podium letting Valtteri onto the top step with him was classy. It wasn’t his call and he made that very clear.

Bottas is a perfect wingman to Lewis. If he'd actually put up a fight, I doubt Lewis would be all that respectful. Same goes for Seb.

 

[baldgye]

I think it’s just him not feeling threatened by Valtteri, if he was at least as fast as Rosberg and stood his ground, there would be none of this Lewis’ new side

If Bottas was as quick as Nico he wouldn’t be a rear gunner and totally out of the title fight.

 

[FutureF1]

Agreed. I think this also paints Rosberg in a new light. He was definitely a supremely talented driver, if not quite on the same level as Hamilton, certainly a top echelon driver of the past 10 years

 

[baldgye]

Agreed. I think this also paints Rosberg in a new light. He was definitely a supremely talented driver, if not quite on the same level as Hamilton, certainly a top echelon driver of the past 10 years

And this is what it boils down too.

Bottas isn’t a patch on Lewis and can’t even trouble him like Nico could. When you drive for a top team and you are not one of the absolute best drivers on the grid, you should expect no less than a number 2 role.

 

[lancia delta hf]

Time to power F1 cars with peddle power.

 

[Famine]

They still consider it against the spirit

According to whom?

Simply stating it is not showing it to be true.

I can't wait until you discover what happened in the 1950s if you think this is against the spirit of the rules...