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Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by mustafur, Apr 13, 2019.
Ferrari still won half the races that season, though.
Which highlights your statistics don't translate properly to a good season since the season was still close.
I cant let all this talk of F1 domination go by without mentioning Jim Clark's exploits in 1963 &1965.
Out of 10 races, he won 7 of them. In the others, his gearbox broke at Monaco when he was leading convincingly. He finished 2nd in Germany due to a misfire. At Watkins Glen, he still managed a 3rd despite being delayed at the start with fuel pump and battery issues. 70% win ratio.
According to the rules at that time, you could only count your best 6 results. So not only did Clark have to drop the points he got for 3rd at the Glen, he had to a drop his 2nd place, and he had to drop one of his wins! He ended the season with 54 points which is the maximum you could get. If you count his dropped scores, he got 73 to Graham Hill's 29.
In 1965, he pretty much repeated that. Out of the 10 races, he won 6 of them. He actually only competed in 9 races as he missed Monaco because he was in the USA winning the Indy 500. 60% (or 66%) win ratio. By winning 6 races, he attained the maximum score of 54 points again.
So, technically, that was 2 perfect seasons, which will never be repeated.
Are we all forgetting that Mercedes lucked into that 1-2 in Bahrain? Leclerc should have won that race, and his crash in Q2 is Bahrain made it easier for Mercedes. Merc haven't just got a 1-2 in every race by being boring.
Plus, Bahrain was a brilliant race to watch. We haven't yet had a safety car or rain. These will come eventually and will spice everything up. This season isn't over yet, and anyway, the Mercedes inter-team rivalry of 2014-16 was just about enough to keep everyone interested, let's see how Hamilton vs Bottas pans out.
Gentleman Jimmy Clark, Scottish sheep farmer, was a transcendental genius driving softly in an era of inherently unreliable cars. Only Senna and Gilles Villeneuve inspire similar reverence, though they drove far harder.
In 1963/65, Mercedes-Benz was but a frightening memory of absolute and total domination in the 30's and '50's, slain like a dragon only by exceptional circumstances. Today we are revisiting our worst nightmare when mere humanity is dominated by dragons like those of the Targaryens. 2021 - or exceptional circumstances - cannot come soon enough
Will Ferrari or any other team even win a race this season ?
Yes. 100%. This defeatist attitude by everyone just looking at stats and not the season itself is ruining it for the rest of us who have enjoyed the season so far and can't wait for each and every next race.
Red Bull could get a win but I would doubt anyone outside of those three will on race pace. The only way I can see is through a wet race and/or a race of unusually high attrition.
We are only 4 races out of 21 races into the season relax
Clearly, Ferrari is just waiting for Vettel to finish channelling the moustache of the great Nigel Mansell, which will clean up air flow to the rear wing and allow them to start winning races. The moustache was supposed to be ready for winter testing but the team wasted time arguing over whether to do the same for Leclerc, before realising he cannot grow one and offering him a perm curler so he can channel Prost and Senna.
I heard his moustache failed the FIA randomized flex-test. Needs more beeswax.
Am I the only one who's not bothered by domination? I watched the Schumacher years, the Vettel years and now the Hamilton years. Although my interest in F1 ebbed and flowed throughout those times, I still can't bring myself to leave the sport completely. IMO if you really love cars and driving fast, then just watching one F1 car go around the track is always exciting. Don't just look at the results. Admire the dedication and effort it takes to dominate in a sport like this. Look at competition in the midfield. Even Williams, as hopeless as they are, it's quite interesting to watch them try and turn the tide. F1 has never been about a different driver winning every week or 100 passes in a race. There are plenty of other motorsport branches for that. But for sheer speed and watching the best drivers drive the fastest cars on the planet, I still love it as much now as back in 2001 when I first saw MSC blazing round Monaco in his red missile
I'm not overly bothered by the domination, but as I've said numerous times (and been lambasted for it) before, I don't think the racing in F1 is particularly good. I mainly watch it because it's something I can do with my father, and we enjoy following the drama and politicking going on. I get my racing fix elsewhere. I could easily watch a 30-min. recap of F1 races and feel like I missed absolutely nothing. IMSA/Michelin, etc. are where I go for better racing.
I feel like the domination speaks more of the technological freedom and talent teams have in F1 as opposed to other series. The FIA might come up with a different formula every year in an attempt to curb performance and keep the racing close, but every year top teams continue to work their magic and come up with faster cars even with regs designed to slow them down...except Williams, apparently.
Racing in F1 is comparatively less compared to other series, but isn't that to be expected when watching spec series, touring cars with significantly stricter regs, or GT cars with ever-changing BoP? Personally, I find myself watching F1 to try and understand why some teams do better at some tracks and what not, how some teams just do better on Sundays, and how it all just paints the championship picture as the season goes.
Sure, and I agree completely - but that's the downside. F1 to me is like motorsport drama, with a touch of technical interest. But as a consumer who appreciates racing more than those other parts of the sport it's arguably my least favourite series that I watch. Thus from a consumer standpoint, it's why I don't mind spec races or BOP etc. There's a very romantic notion of "unlimited budgets, sky's the limit, let them do what they can!" because it sounds thrilling.
The end result is more often complete and utter domination of teams X and Y...while other teams bow out under financial strain or just never compete.
It's definitely not known as the pinnacle of motorsport for nothing. Survival of the fittest, and the best of the best really stands out. The technological floor is just as high as the ceiling, so it's not exactly encouraging to new manufacturers looking to get results off the bat.
I wonder though, if the FIA decide to work on making the regulations strict enough that it's only a few steps away from making F1 a spec series, would "the pinnacle of motorsport" mean any less when we could potentially get better racing?
What's difficult in today's F1 is you don't have small teams winning now and again due to failures from the top team(s). Before they used to push the tolerances very hard to gain a margin and run the risk of failure. Now with this self awarded environmental responsibility it's thrown out the random wins and podiums.
I don't feel it's F1's job to make gearboxes and engines last. If someone is going to have some fun on the planet of 7 billion I think the extremely small group of teams and drivers in cutting edge of F1 should be free to build an engine and gearbox or whole car for every race.
Figures according to Bloomberg;
While many bemoan the current state of the sport, it's important to put it into perspective. Pay-TV is destroying access to the sport.
Sure it is, but the un-competitive action is surely helping that decline.
The sport needs to go back to Free TV for the long term strength of the sport even at the expense of income.
Not sure I agree, we are 5(?) races into 2019 and last season was awesome. It's been a slow start and Ferrari have ****ed the season off, but it's not always mega off the start...
Australia is and always will be dull when its dry.
Bahrain was a good and exciting race with lots of drama.
China was a quiet race.
Baku was unfortunately uneventful.
Spain is and always will be dull when its dry.
But your only looking at the front, the rest of the field has been ruined, the competitive order has pretty much been the same for years now, upgrades rarely have a team moving up the field in a big manner anymore.
These regulations have destroyed the ability for a midfeild Surprise packaging is Soo crucial as the power units are Soo complex and the works teams have an unsomountable advantage in that area.
I'll be fair, this season by it self wouldn't be out of the usual for F1 standards but the fact it has been like this consistently for years now is the issue.
The lack of surprise is what is hurting this series, sure we can get the odd good race but not the good season we all hope.
I don't agree with this either. The midfield is as mixed up as it's ever been. That said, the opportunity for a midfield team to score a podium at the moment is zero, which is a huge problem.
I don't think the power-units are the issue, as Williams have scored podiums and pole's since 2014. The issue imo, is the fact that the teams money is basically trapped within the top teams. It means the top teams operate on another level to the midfield. I'm hoping that with the new regs we get a better distribution of wealth and a proper avenue for new teams to come into the sport, make money and find success.
Money isn't the main issue the regs are, in 2012-2013 you had Lotus fighting pretty competitively up the front with a shoe string budget.
If Money was the Biggest Issue why is McLaren Suffering Soo much?
The Gap between the front of the midfeild to the slowest front running car is massive and has been that way for years now.
For example Gasly is driving like utter rubbish at the moment but isn't being punished for it at all, getting 6th's easy with no challenge from behind.
Unfortunately for us, it seems like everyone, including the FIA are just pinning the hopes in the next major regs overhaul in 2021. But if the start of the hybrid era in 2014 was any indication, I'm more worried than excited.
If anything, I'm not a fan of the ever changing regs in this era. Sure, this might have been done to keep top teams from stretching the gap, but when you have the midfield teams that clearly haven't perfected their car under the current regs by the end of the season, introducing changes every year just puts them on the back foot before the next season even starts.
Eh like I said I don't agree.
McLaren suffered so much due to horrible mismanagement between themselves and Honda. That whole thing was a mess and as soon as that engine went into the Toro Rosso and now Red Bull, it sang.
I agree that the gap is large, but I think this has more to do with development and the money teams can allocate. The engines are fairly well balanced now across the fields, to the point where McLaren (with a bigger budget) is out performing the Renault works team...
I think that will be temporary, Renault have the regulation advantage over McLaren and at Spain atleast they had more race pace but they got ruined by the safety car.
If they upgrade the engine and change parts they have the packaging advantage of knowing before McLaren how it can be packaged, but they are still suffering from the lost ground by not being there at the start of the reg change in 2014(plus their engine was crap).
Since the start of this season McLaren have been ahead of Renault. Renault might have the engine advantage over McLaren but the Mclaren is just a better car.
The reason they have the better car, is money. They can afford a bigger team, more parts more CFD etc etc...
While the engines do play a part and very much did, now the problem is development. I mean, Mercedes brought a whole new car, during testing and Ferrari have pushed forward upgrades every weekend. The rate of development is insane and the cost is equally maddening.
If the bigger teams had a smaller budget and the smaller teams had more scope, we'd be back to the 2012 dream (that did only last one season)...
Then what about Force India they had less money then all their mid field rivals and still finished ahead of them for seasons in these regulations.
Having Money is important sure but it's not the most important thing for being competitive, The engine is crucial have you seen the size of all the parts required to fit the engine in the car, making that package as tight as possible is pretty much the key to being competitive right now, not being a works team means your at a disadvantage.
Force India is a good example. From my understanding they have the best value for money team running and have developed that philosophy for years and years now. But it's a difficult balance to tread, look at this year. The team changes, some shifts happen and the harmony is broken.
This has always and will always be the case, and I agree that it's difficult for 3rd parties to get into F1. But despite everything Honda have managed it even with these new ridiculous engines.
I do think having simpler engines would benefit the series but I think a longer term fix to help the smaller teams and teams coming in, would be better and fairer distribution of funds.
Standardized packaging requirements could possibly be the answer, but it would require a fresh new engine regulation.
I'm not fully convinced the 2021 Regulations will change much though but we will see.