24 Heures du Mans 12th-13th June 2010

  • Thread starter Ardius
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Bram Turismo
Actually, they didn't. They weren't pushing it at all as Marc Gene showed what the 908 really could do when pushed. It just looks like Peugeot were being struck by mechanical whoes like in 2007 again. They were without any doubt in a class of their own, but in only a few hours it all went horribly wrong. Endurance racing is about going only as hard as you need to, but for Peugeot that seemed to have backfired this year...

Bah, I am absolutely gutted that it's yet another entire podium filled with Audis. Not saying I don't think they don't deserve it, but still. Not even an Aston was close to finishing on the podium!
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That sums it up nicely. Peugeot did their job well (on the race, both team and drivers) but in the end, Audi's (slightly boring) reliability won.

If life was fair they would have got at least one car to the finish, like in 4th place, but it is not. It's hard. And this was a very hard blow.
 
Bram Turismo
Actually, they didn't. They weren't pushing it at all as Marc Gene showed what the 908 really could do when pushed. It just looks like Peugeot were being struck by mechanical whoes like in 2007 again. They were without any doubt in a class of their own, but in only a few hours it all went horribly wrong. Endurance racing is about going only as hard as you need to, but for Peugeot that seemed to have backfired this year...
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Wurz was almost certainly pushing the hell out of that car when it blew. I wasn't closely following the Oreca 908 but I bet that was also pushing when it blew its engine.
So many similar failures seemed to say a lot to me and Wurz may have been able to just hold on to 2nd, maybe not the same as winning but still.

At that point in the race I guess it was all or nothing anyway but I just get this sense from Peugeot that they really want to push to the extreme far more than Audi did. Mostly Davidsons incidents and reportedly the team culture all about beating each other (on Eurosport early in the race they mentioned that the drivers can see all the data and like a lap record ranking for each driver in the car...causing drivers to push to beat their teammates) are what make me criticise Peugeot's approach to the race.
 
Ardius
Wurz was almost certainly pushing the hell out of that car when it blew. I wasn't closely following the Oreca 908 but I bet that was also pushing when it blew its engine.So many similar failures seemed to say a lot to me and Wurz may have been able to just hold on to 2nd, maybe not the same as winning but still.

At that point in the race I guess it was all or nothing anyway but I just get this sense from Peugeot that they really want to push to the extreme far more than Audi did. Mostly Davidsons incidents and reportedly the team culture all about beating each other (on Eurosport early in the race they mentioned that the drivers can see all the data and like a lap record ranking for each driver in the car...causing drivers to push to beat their teammates) are what make me criticise Peugeot's approach to the race.
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Thats basically what the Oreca car was doing. Team Principal told Duval to push and it ended up having the exact same failure the 2 and eventually the 1 car did.
 
Ardius
Wurz was almost certainly pushing the hell out of that car when it blew. I wasn't closely following the Oreca 908 but I bet that was also pushing when it blew its engine.
So many similar failures seemed to say a lot to me and Wurz may have been able to just hold on to 2nd, maybe not the same as winning but still.
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Tricky situation. I agree they perhaps should've stayed with 2nd, but if the possibility is there then why not go for it? This race kind of reminds me of Le Mans '99 in which the Toyota was rapidly catching the BMW and would've overtaken it in the last few laps until it had a puncture.

But those Audis weren't exactly just cruising either. I seem to remember Bernhardt putting in 3'22 laps in the night, lapping nearly the exact time as Peugeot which means in relation the Audi was pushing harder than the leading Peugeot.

Oh well, we'll see what happens next year.
 
Aye, well, I just found it a bit suspicious in a sense that they should all have similar problems. Surely Peugeot should have known the about potential for engine failures if they pushed too much?
 
Bram Turismo
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But those Audis weren't exactly just cruising either. I seem to remember Bernhardt putting in 3'22 laps in the night, lapping nearly the exact time as Peugeot which means in relation the Audi was pushing harder than the leading Peugeot.
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However, they weren't doing it most of the race as Peugeot were. Really, there was no need to push seeing as the first caution basically gave them a huge cushion and they had it by a country mile.
 
You know, the Peugeot didn't actually touch the Corvette. I you watch the replay, it would appear the Corvette over corrected to avoid hitting the Peugeot which he was already going wide for. I don't think the Peugeot did anything wrong. I mean, yeah, he could have waited or passed on the outside, but the Corvette knew the Peugeot was there and almost look like he got a little scared by the speed of the Peugeot and spun it around.
 
Well, I was cheering on Audi and wearing my Audi hat for the occasion. I wish the other classes had turned out well too for me, but I guess not this year.
 
The 908 did not hit the Corvette at all to me. I just got through blogging about my own thoughts on Le Mans 2010. Simply put, Peugeot failed while Audi didn't. My main storyline was basically on if Peugeot could beat Audi again. I've levitated to Peugeot because they were the ones who actually beat Audi to the line in this decade of Le Mans. There's no Gran Turismo curse or anything that silly, Peugeot just failed while Audi didn't. Let's face it- Audi could have been Peugeot. Audi could have struggled while Peugeot would have seen all of their entries finish. Le Mans is just unpredictable and dramatic.

The saddest notion to me is just how harmoniously the Peugeots failed. Even Tom Kristensen shared his sentiments on Peugeot and their woes. Kristensen is an absolutely stand-up guy when he was chatting with the Speed Channel crew about Peugeot. He didn't say anything like "Peugeot got what they deserved" or anything like that. I almost wanted to go to sleep after seeing the final Pug take a dirt nap, but this is Le Mans. I wanted to see the finish and the closing ceremonies and stuff.

Le Mans makes and breaks racers. I already can't wait for Le Mans 2011. Congratulations to all winners overall and in class.
 
The Pug didn't hit the Vette, but he made a way over agressive move up the inside that no respectable driver should have made which forced the Corvette unexpectedly wide when he was already on the limit of grip, and out into the dirty stuff, causing him to spin.
 
They should. But their management was terrible. This is an endurance race and not a sprint race. If I was there, I will ask them to keep the pace sessible because the car is going to fall apart anytime soon... No need to be arrogance in the race as it will leas you to failure. Thought they were too experienced after winning last year's.

Audi is better in my opinion. They are well managed, prepared and have better strategy and thinking. They are race winner.

Next year, I'm just hoping for more car to enter the LMP class, and more cars to enter the GT Class. Preferabally Toyota, as I missed them soo much. BMW will never come back into LMP class. But whatever it is, the race was awesome, didn't regret not sleeping for more than 30 hours just for the race.
 
Ok now that I've had plenty of time to rest (slept through my alarm to wake up for the F1 race) after staying up and watching the race from flag to flag here is my summary of what I thought about the race. In one word I would describe this race as unpredictable. All of the people you would think would win the race didn't in almost every category (not including LMP2).

It seems mechanical failure was what every team was truly racing against. For me I found the race disappointing because all the teams I wanted to win simply didn't (except for Audi.) but just because i thought the race was disappointing doesn't mean it wasn't one of the best Le Mans I have watched. Teams you never thought would make it to the podium finally made it to the podium not a moment to late, Saleen. And dominant power houses went down a surprise for everyone, Risi, Corvette, Pugoet, Aston, Flying Lizard.

Its been a while since Le Mans couldnt be treated like a 24 hour sprint race but this year seemed to take teams by surprise. Maybe it was due to the lack of rain and not being forced to not run your car as hard, who knows. But a lot of the top teams will be taking notes (hopefully puegot after making the same mistake they made a few years earlier) and coming back stronger next year, if they come back at all such as the GT1 teams. This could be the last time we have seen teams just as JLOC and Luc Alphand at Le Mans with GT1 being removed next year.

And I must say i didn't think highly of JLOC at the beginning of the race due to in the past the team retiring on the first lap or just very early on, but that small outfit impressed me this weekend with just not giving up until they just couldnt get the car going anymore.

And on the topic of people who impressed me. Anthony Davidson I think showed himself to be a very reckless driver who has no respect for other drivers on the track and who shows no patience. The #2 Puegot should never had needed to be in the position at the end of the race of pushing hard to make up laps if Davidson would have just shown patience with the GT cars during the race. Instead he tried to go all out all race and ends up spinning the car and costing him and his team mates several laps. If it was not for this one incident the Puegot should have been well in front of the Audis in the final hours of the race just cruising to an easy victory. But instead Davidson is to busy making reckless passes on all cars in the final hours of the race causing one accident to the corvette and im sure scaring several other GT drivers during his stints. Then on top of that he almost bins his car entering pit lane going way to fast. Hes lucky he didn't end up on the race track and getting hit by a car during that fiasco. Some times slow is fast and im sure if he would have taken the time to enter pit lane at a normal speed he would have been quicker instead of taking the rally dakar method. And then his interview after his stint just shows his lack of respect for all other drivers on the track. In my opinion if i was the Puegot team i would really think about if they want him back driving next year. The drivers reflect on the team and he does not give a nice reflection on Puegot.

But this was by far one of the most interesting Le Mans I have seen with not knowing who will actually survive until the finish with all of the cars dropping out. And with all the cars that retired from the race there where only 4 safety car periods that I can remember. Shows those track marshal's did an excellent job of getting cars off the track that pulled over and most of the drivers did a good job staying clean.
 
it should be noted that ALL FIVE Peugeots went out because of ENGINE FAILURES. And they only blew up when they were pushing to either stay ahead of the Audis or catch up to them. That just means, if they had treated this like an ENDURANCE race and not a 24 Hour sprint race, they probably would have lasted, but who knows. The #4 blew up only minutes after starting his push, which suggest the engine was on it's way to dying already.

Sounds to me like Peugeot needs to get some better drivers and a better engine that can take some the punishment of aggressive driving for 24 Hours....like the Audis...'cause Audi has been known for being agressive in the past...as has Corvette.

BTW, if that spin with the Corvette was a simple locking of the breaks, he would have spun in the direction of the Peugeot. The Vette over corrected to avoid the Pug and ended up spinning away from the Pug. But the thing is, guys....It's racing. It happens all the time. I've seen a bazillion accidents just like that. And, it doesn't really matter whose fault it is. It's racing. And it's a 24 Hour race. Davidson was in a quad-stint when that happened. He was probably VERY tired and yeah, when you're been driving for that long, you probably aren't going to see some of the other cars or car about the other classes. I'm sure if I had been driving for that long and that happened, I would had a similar reaction. "Oh, did the Corvette guy wreck? I didn't really care. I was trying to catch the Audi. Screw everyone else."

I mean the 75 Porsche ended up off the track 4 times in about an hour. That driver was TIRED. I'm sure Davidson went to BED right after that interview. And I bet if you asked him now, he'd be like. "Yeah, was tired, and just focused on finishing my stint and catching the Audi. I barely even saw the Corvette. Didn't mean to take him out. Sorry." But after a quad-stint, you're probably going to be a cranky jerk, too.
 
SuperShouden
it should be noted that ALL FIVE Peugeots went out because of ENGINE FAILURES. And they only blew up when they were pushing to either stay ahead of the Audis or catch up to them. That just means, if they had treated this like an ENDURANCE race and not a 24 Hour sprint race, they probably would have lasted, but who knows. The #4 blew up only minutes after starting his push, which suggest the engine was on it's way to dying already.

Sounds to me like Peugeot needs to get some better drivers and a better engine that can take some the punishment of aggressive driving for 24 Hours....like the Audis...'cause Audi has been known for being agressive in the past...as has Corvette.

BTW, if that spin with the Corvette was a simple locking of the breaks, he would have spun in the direction of the Peugeot. The Vette over corrected to avoid the Pug and ended up spinning away from the Pug. But the thing is, guys....It's racing. It happens all the time. I've seen a bazillion accidents just like that. And, it doesn't really matter whose fault it is. It's racing. And it's a 24 Hour race. Davidson was in a quad-stint when that happened. He was probably VERY tired and yeah, when you're been driving for that long, you probably aren't going to see some of the other cars or car about the other classes. I'm sure if I had been driving for that long and that happened, I would had a similar reaction. "Oh, did the Corvette guy wreck? I didn't really care. I was trying to catch the Audi. Screw everyone else."

I mean the 75 Porsche ended up off the track 4 times in about an hour. That driver was TIRED. I'm sure Davidson went to BED right after that interview. And I bet if you asked him now, he'd be like. "Yeah, was tired, and just focused on finishing my stint and catching the Audi. I barely even saw the Corvette. Didn't mean to take him out. Sorry." But after a quad-stint, you're probably going to be a cranky jerk, too.
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If it would have been just that incident, then I'd agree. thing is though, he was like this the entire race. He spun an Aston Martin out, hit the leading Ford GT(Or so I think) and collided with the Ferrari of Fisichella.
 
SuperShouden
it should be noted that ALL FIVE Peugeots went out because of ENGINE FAILURES. And they only blew up when they were pushing to either stay ahead of the Audis or catch up to them. That just means, if they had treated this like an ENDURANCE race and not a 24 Hour sprint race, they probably would have lasted, but who knows. The #4 blew up only minutes after starting his push, which suggest the engine was on it's way to dying already.
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Nah the first one out I think had chassis damage, not an engine failure, plus weren't there only 4 Pugs?
 
four, five, same difference. Let's see, though, Peugeots were 1, 2, 3, 4 and 6 (one of the Ginettas was 5)I think Audi had 7, 8, and 9. 'Cause there were three factory Pugs and two Team Oreca Pugs. And all three Audis were factory Audis.

And, yeah Davidson aggressive the whole time, but the thing is, wasn't all his crashes in the same stint? I mean, I've heard of double and triple stinting drivers, but I don't know, if I were a driver on a team in a closed cockpit car for that long, I'd be hot before I got in the car, too. I mean, the main reason why they change drivers is to prevent fatigue and to keep the drivers from suffocating in heat of the cockpits. If you ask me, it was more Peugeots fault for not changing out drivers more. I mean, anyway you slice it, Peugeot kinda fell off the horse and HARD this year. A BUNCH of engine failures. Which would appear to be a problem with the cars and not the drivers since all seemed to suffer from similar failures and overly aggressive drivers. yikes...although, I still think he was fatigued.
 
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Oreca only had one Pug, so 4.

Just read about what kind of turbos the diesel cars were using. It seems both Audi and Pug were running the very same VGT turbos, but that Audi took a conservative route to be sure to not have any failures in that department. Pug obviously did not, hence the major speed differences, and also the engine failures. I´m of course guessing, but it seems very likely to me.

Has the GT2 winners been solved yet? Read elsewhere that the two top cars may be DQ for some reason.
 
SuperShouden
four, five, same difference. Let's see, though, Peugeots were 1, 2, 3, 4 and 6 (one of the Ginettas was 5)I think Audi had 7, 8, and 9. 'Cause there were three factory Pugs and two Team Oreca Pugs. And all three Audis were factory Audis.
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Nope. Peugeot had three works cars with two under "Team Peugeot Total" and one under "Peugeot Sport Total" While Oreca had one pug. The other car was the Oreca 01 AIM.


SuperShouden
And, yeah Davidson aggressive the whole time, but the thing is, wasn't all his crashes in the same stint? I mean, I've heard of double and triple stinting drivers, but I don't know, if I were a driver on a team in a closed cockpit car for that long, I'd be hot before I got in the car, too. I mean, the main reason why they change drivers is to prevent fatigue and to keep the drivers from suffocating in heat of the cockpits. If you ask me, it was more Peugeots fault for not changing out drivers more. I mean, anyway you slice it, Peugeot kinda fell off the horse and HARD this year. A BUNCH of engine failures. Which would appear to be a problem with the cars and not the drivers since all seemed to suffer from similar failures and overly aggressive drivers. yikes...although, I still think he was fatigued.
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Nope, all happened at different times. In particular, corvette incident happened eight hours after the one with the Ford GT. All these incidents did not occur during the same stint.
 
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Now that I've had an actual nights sleep I've had another look at the incident.

Both Davidson AND the Corvette driver were at fault in my view.

Davidson was at fault because he tried to pass in a place that GT drivers have specifically asked Prototype drivers not to pass then on because of there being only one line and it being dirty off line on the outside.

The Corvette driver was at fault because when he took the wide line after Davidson passed him (cleanly by the way, NO contact was made) he did not take into account that he was now on the dirty line and slow down more and earlier. Instead he turned in as if he would have grip and lost the back end and went off into the wall. No way can anyone other than the Corvette driver be responsible for that accident.

Davidson's response after the fact, when interviewed was stupid and partly goaded by the Peugeot reporters on the Peugeot stream site, but probably what most, if not all, drivers in the top teams in any category would say if their PR contact doesn't get to them first.
 
Tired Tyres
Now that I've had an actual nights sleep I've had another look at the incident.

Both Davidson AND the Corvette driver were at fault in my view.

Davidson was at fault because he tried to pass in a place that GT drivers have specifically asked Prototype drivers not to pass then on because of there being only one line and it being dirty off line on the outside.

The Corvette driver was at fault because when he took the wide line after Davidson passed him (cleanly by the way, NO contact was made) he did not take into account that he was now on the dirty line and slow down more and earlier. Instead he turned in as if he would have grip and lost the back end and went off into the wall. No way can anyone other than the Corvette driver be responsible for that accident.

Davidson's response after the fact, when interviewed was stupid and partly goaded by the Peugeot reporters on the Peugeot stream site, but probably what most, if not all, drivers in the top teams in any category would say if their PR contact doesn't get to them first.
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And that is what I saw as well. Very well put. 👍
 
As promised the Radio Le Mans broadcast with the interview with Dick Dastardly Davidson is about 4/5th from the end, It's not the accident that caused the great uproar, (if we all agree it was a 50/50 race incident) it's what he said in this interview and also Peugeot's attitue later. John 'Hindy' Hindaugh opinions are pure gold, and the other commentator's struggeling to balance out his rant are great.


http://audio.mpix.org.uk/lemans2010/2010_lm24_r20.mp3


The link didn't work the first time for me, let it load, close it down, then try again this time you should get the time slide bar at the bottom 👍
 
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SuperShouden
it should be noted that ALL FIVE Peugeots went out because of ENGINE FAILURES. And they only blew up when they were pushing to either stay ahead of the Audis or catch up to them. That just means, if they had treated this like an ENDURANCE race and not a 24 Hour sprint race, they probably would have lasted, but who knows. The #4 blew up only minutes after starting his push, which suggest the engine was on it's way to dying already.
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Sigh... I could repeat his 50 times, but the Peugeots were NOT going any faster than they had to. The Audis were no more than a second slower per lap, and we all know the Peugeot is a faster car in terms of pace anyway. Also, don't forget the Peugeots received a free 1-minute cushion after that safety car period at the start of the race. After that the Peugeots were not pulling away more than a second a lap, which means that they were doing their race, and not a sprint race. The failures of #1 and #4 were due to the fast pace they HAD to settle to gain back on the Audis after their problems, but the #2 and #3 had pure mechanical difficulties, not due to pushing so hard.

Seriously guys, you can't say Peugeot treated this as a sprint race, please stop that. They have been on this program for many years now, and they have the most developed car of the LMP1 field, if not of the entire Le Mans grid. Last year everything worked their way, this year it did not. End of the story, no need to start blaming Peugeot for handling this race as if they are rookies.
 
Grenade
As promised the Radio Le Mans broadcast with the interview with Dick Dastardly Davidson is about 4/5th from the end, It's not the accident that caused the great uproar, (if we all agree it was a 50/50 race incident) it's what he said in this interview and also Peugeot's attitue later. John 'Hindy' Hindaugh oppinions are pure gold, and the other commentator's struggeling to balance out his rant are great.


http://audio.mpix.org.uk/lemans2010/2010_lm24_r20.mp3
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Yeah...I'm looking at the incident more and more, and it does strike me as a little impatient from Davidson, but at the same time, he probably thought he could clear the Corvette by the second apex. No malice there. But Davidson's attitude in the interview stinks of "we're Peugeot and we're trying to win the race and noone else matters" well that's all well and good, but Corvette Racing were trying to win the GT2 race themselves - that's the thing about Le Mans, not everything revolves around the top cars. There are battles going on throughout the classes. His mad charging after the Audis not only put his own team in trouble (his spins, pit road arse-up) but ruined the race inadvertandly for Pratt and Miller.

So, to summerise - Davidson certainly wasn't targeting the Corvette, and the split-second accident wasn't Davidson's intention or outright fault - just a result of him in a hurry and taking risks (as Hindy said, he could've waited a corner or two, and avoided passing him in an area that apparantly the GT cars requested they specifically avoid passing them in). But his dismissive attitude to Corvette Racing is disgraceful. Even if he had said something like "I'm sorry to Corvette Racing, I didn't mean to cause their car trouble, but I'm in a hurry because I'm trying to win the race." But he was completly unapologetic, and to almost say he doesn't care about the other races and classes - how much money and effort and teamwork goes into the average Le Mans racing team effort to win the 24hrs? How much money and hours of work went down the drain when the Corvette pranged the wall? How would Davidson feel if the shoe was on the other foot, and the Corvette had inadvertantly knocked the Peugeot off the track? How mad would he and the whole team been?!

Rant over, and my respect for Hindy has multiplied tenfold even more. Forthright and honest. Much respect, and I wonder if this will affect GT drivers' attitudes to allowing faster cars through?
 
At least it's not like the Rolex Sports Car series, the GT drivers give no room to the Can-Am drivers and often turn in on them causing an accident. At least from what I could tell of the 2 races I watched.
 

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