$30k, 30+mpg, luxury - possible?

[1X83Z]

Yeah sure.

Topics don't end because you say so.



Had you addressed that to any other member, I'd be giving you a straight Infraction right now. As it is, I don't give Infractions to people who insult me.

If you'd just learn to read things - you know, like when I gave you a £10k (diesel) car as an example and you told me it was £21k, or when you tried to make the same point ExigeEvan made 3 hours earlier and I'd already covered, or when you just spent this thread arguing against the notion that people by diesels as tools to use that exact function as an example - your threads would be much shorter and less combative...

Wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? Jeez Famine!!! Someone needs to calm the heck down!! I suggest you take a break from the thread - hell, this SITE - and reconsider your priorities, because being so brash and serious on an Internet site prooooobably isn't worth it...

Then why does it say 31 mpg?
http://www.volvocars.com/us/models/s40/Pages/techspec.aspx

Are they lying?

Actually, I think they might be. I can find several sources (ConsumerGuide, Edmunds.com) that list the highway mpg at 28. I can't find a single one aside Volvo's own that has it at 31. Weird!!

 

[Philly]

Now are Jetta's luxury though? I wouldn't really think so...

They would probably fit as middle-luxury. Going off the GTI (all MKVs have the same interior), you would find it a nice place to be if you got leather. The only complaint I'd have are the seats, which might get uncomfortable for some on long trips. But I don't know if the Jetta with leather will have the same seats as mine.

Just a thought, but what about a Passat 2.0T? I had one as a loner car, and even the very base car was quite nice.

 

[Tornado]

Jan 07 or Feb 07? I know they tend to jump all around on months, if it's Jan's which I think has the 370Z on the cover I can snag it from work.

February. It has the new Ford Fusion, Chevy Malibu, Nissan Altima and Toyota Camry on the cover.

 

[neanderthal]

Famine.
No insult intended. I'm sometimes blunt and it can come across as insulting.

But here

Diesel cars aren't fun - they're a tool for a chore and driving should never be a chore.

...

you've said they aren't fun. And we generally mean sporty= fun in this forum. In fact, i'm pretty sure in my post that I stated "sporty/ fun" with the slash that you cleverly omitted to imply that I was only talking about sporty.

But you've painted yourself into a corner, because you've admitted that the acceleration would be about the same, and that a derv with a sports suspension would handle about the same as its petrol engined brethren, so, what do YOU mean by the statement above? What is YOUR definition of fun?

I can only assume its either the "vroom vroom" sound or the revviness of the petrol engines. I'm pretty sure i'm not the only one who doesn't get what you're saying, as you're not saying it. At least not clearly enough for me to understand it, and I consider myself a fairly bright chap.

And for the record, I read every post.

 

[YSSMAN]

Just a thought, but what about a Passat 2.0T? I had one as a loner car, and even the very base car was quite nice.

Eh? Oh, you mean the Passat CC?

• Starts at $27K
• Rated 21/31 MPG
• Looks Amazing

Go for it!

 

[Keef]

Eh? Oh, you mean the Passat CC?

• Starts at $27K
• Rated 21/31 MPG
• Looks Amazing

Go for it!

Seriously, if you would have suggested that, like, on the first page, we could have saved a whole lot of breath, hard disk space, and possibly some Mod brownie points for Doug. But nooooo, you had to wait until now. Jeez, YSSMAN!

 

[Famine]

But here ... you've said they aren't fun.

Quite so. In fact, let's look at the two preceding posts also:

I wouldn't touch a diesel car with a pair of stolen hands.

Care to elaborate?

Diesel cars aren't fun - they're a tool for a chore and driving should never be a chore.

One look at a rush hour tells you what happens when driving becomes a chore...

Though I've cropped off the first part of the first post (dealing with relative fuel prices) and the "also" which linked it all together, the word which now appears first is a really, really important one.

And we generally mean sporty= fun in this forum.

"We" in this forum do nothing of the sort. It takes virtually no imagination at all to come up with some "sporty" cars which are less enjoyable to drive than a nail through your own scrotum, and even less to come up with some cars which most certainly aren't sporty that are quite a great deal of fun to drive - the Mini you cited being a case in point.

In fact, i'm pretty sure in my post that I stated "sporty/ fun" with the slash that you cleverly omitted to imply that I was only talking about sporty.

The only implication is that the terms are not universally interchangeable.

But you've painted yourself into a corner, because you've admitted that the acceleration would be about the same, and that a derv with a sports suspension would handle about the same as its petrol engined brethren

I wouldn't say "admitted", more "explicitly stated":

Diesels can be fast. They can even be good to drive. They're practical. They're economical. They're relatively reliable and hold their value. They get the job done. There's lots of plus points to owning a diesel.

As I said, they can be fast (the R10 and 908 are faster, regulations notwithstanding, than their petrol counterparts). They can handle well. I'm not saying otherwise.

Oh, sure, the power figures might be about the same, the acceleration figures might be about the same (probably the diesel will be quicker, as a function of torque), the top speeds might be about the same (probably the petrol will be faster, as a function of gearing and a 5krpm limit)

I'm not talking about faster, or quicker, or smoother riding. There's no reason I can think of which would mean a diesel cannot be any of these things.

What is YOUR definition of fun?

I consider myself a fairly bright chap.

I've truncated this on purpose, because you've actually thought to ask a question no-one else has so far. I did brush on it earlier, when I said that the term was subjective. So subjective, in fact, that my ex-girlfriend thought her Clio was "fun" because it was a cutesy little French hatchback. From her point of view, because she enjoyed driving it, she was right but from mine, because it was an awful little box of horsevomit, she was unbelievably wrong. Oddly, when reading that thread, she agreed with everything I wrote, but said "But I like it!". Go figure.

Who was wrong when she thought her Clio was "fun"? In any case, if she were to (and she does still have an active account here) post "I'd have another Clio - they're fun", I wouldn't expect to see a 70-post, 3-day discussion about how wrong she was and how she needed to adapt (from people who hadn't actually driven one - and I'm not including you at this point)...

This aside, I - and others (which is, you know, more people so, according to the M5Power More People Is More Right method of judging things, is better) - have made a similar case before. And it's interesting that many of the I'd-rather-not-thanks in that thread are Europeans and Brits who've grown up as diesel has grown up rather than the stereotypical American diesel-hater.


Incidentally, I've been tasking some industry-geek friends and acquaintances with thinking up a single further example of the question I thought up earlier - how many car model lines have a diesel as the flagship variant (excluding diesel-only models). We're still only at the Skoda Fabia. Someone came up with the Peugeot 407 - the coupe version had a 201hp diesel 2.7 twin turbo alongside a 208hp petrol 3.0 V6 non-turbo until the V6 was replaced by a still more powerful version, and the saloon version recently had all petrol-engined variants cancelled in the UK - so we're counting that as a half. I recall that there's nearly a thousand car models available in the UK.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Currently the 1.3 TDCi is the most powerful Ka

 

[YSSMAN]

Incidentally, I've been tasking some industry-geek friends and acquaintances with thinking up a single further example of the question I thought up earlier - how many car model lines have a diesel as the flagship variant (excluding diesel-only models)

I can answer that question as best as possible for the US:

The Volkswagen Jetta TDI. Seriously. They're so proud of that car, they keep a big thing on the front page, and mention the car throughout the website. Otherwise, yeah, we're still without diesels for the most part.

THOUGHT!

Although BMW is changing some of their advertising here in the US. Over the past few nights I've noticed an increasing number of "mysterious" ads for the new 330d and X5 (however they call it a diesel). It may not be calling them "flagships," but they're getting the word out.

...Or we could talk about Ford trucks...

 

[Famine]

I did say "car" - and by flagship I'm referring to either the most expensive without options, the most expensive with options or the most powerful engine option.

And Evan is correct that the new Ka has all three in the 1.3 TDCi.

2.5/1000

 

[ExigeEvan]

I always knew that spec-ing cars, that I can't afford, when I should be revising would prove productive.

[EDIT] Vauxhall Antara
Hyndai i30
Kia C'eed
Toyota Verso

 

[Famine]

I always knew that spec-ing cars, that I can't afford, when I should be revising would prove productive.

[EDIT] Vauxhall Antara
Hyndai i30
Kia C'eed
Toyota Verso

Got some time on your hands?

Antara - agreed; 2.4 petrol vs. 2.0 turbodiesel - derv is more expensive and more powerful
Hyundai i30 - agree; 1.6 petrol vs. 2.0 turbodiesel - as above
Kia C'eed - 1.6 petrol vs. 2.0 turbodiesel - full house for the derv
Avensis Verso - disagreed; 2.0 D-4D vs. 2.0 VVTi - VVTi is more powerful, though less expensive

So we'll call the Verso a half like the 407 as it sort of meets the criteria but sort of doesn't also. Putting us up to 6 car model lines (5 and two halves) sold in the UK where a diesel engine represents the top variant.


Seriously, keep 'em coming if you have them.

 

[Tornado]

What about the Q7?

In America, the most expensive R class is the diesel, though it is down on power.

 

[neanderthal]

I've truncated this on purpose, because you've actually thought to ask a question no-one else has so far. I did brush on it earlier, when I said that the term was subjective. So subjective, in fact, that my ex-girlfriend thought her Clio was "fun" because it was a cutesy little French hatchback. From her point of view, because she enjoyed driving it, she was right but from mine, because it was an awful little box of horsevomit, she was unbelievably wrong. Oddly, when reading that thread, she agreed with everything I wrote, but said "But I like it!". Go figure.

Who was wrong when she thought her Clio was "fun"? In any case, if she were to (and she does still have an active account here) post "I'd have another Clio - they're fun", I wouldn't expect to see a 70-post, 3-day discussion about how wrong she was and how she needed to adapt (from people who hadn't actually driven one - and I'm not including you at this point)...

This aside, I - and others (which is, you know, more people so, according to the M5Power More People Is More Right method of judging things, is better) - have made a similar case before. And it's interesting that many of the I'd-rather-not-thanks in that thread are Europeans and Brits who've grown up as diesel has grown up rather than the stereotypical American diesel-hater.


Incidentally, I've been tasking some industry-geek friends and acquaintances with thinking up a single further example of the question I thought up earlier - how many car model lines have a diesel as the flagship variant (excluding diesel-only models). We're still only at the Skoda Fabia. Someone came up with the Peugeot 407 - the coupe version had a 201hp diesel 2.7 twin turbo alongside a 208hp petrol 3.0 V6 non-turbo until the V6 was replaced by a still more powerful version, and the saloon version recently had all petrol-engined variants cancelled in the UK - so we're counting that as a half. I recall that there's nearly a thousand car models available in the UK.

All that, and YOU STILL HAVEN'T defined your idea of fun, other than stating its highly subjective. I get that. But seeing as you've "pooh poo- ed" my definition (sporty) i'd like you to elaborate on exactly what constitutes fun, FOR YOU. Not your girlfriend.

Some get their kicks going fast in a straight line.
Some from having flashy, chromy, bright things. And having similarly minded people admire the flashy chromy bright things.
Some from having a loud stereo.
Some from going around corners, real fast.
Some from going around corners sideways.
Some from killing cones in a parking lot.
Some from making the car "dance" with their hydros.
Some from racing at the desert.
Some from rock crawling.
Oddly enough, some from towing heavy things.

Thats enough examples, but you get the idea. You're a bright enough lad. Give us something. ANYTHING. It doesn't have to be defined in one sentence, but anything so that we, the "unenlightened masses/ thundering herd of ignorance" can finally be illumined to this fun that you are so hell bent on keeping secret.

Thank you.

 

[1X83Z]

All that, and YOU STILL HAVEN'T defined your idea of fun, other than stating its highly subjective. I get that. But seeing as you've "pooh poo- ed" my definition (sporty) i'd like you to elaborate on exactly what constitutes fun, FOR YOU. Not your girlfriend.

Some get their kicks going fast in a straight line.
Some from having flashy, chromy, bright things. And having similarly minded people admire the flashy chromy bright things.
Some from having a loud stereo.
Some from going around corners, real fast.
Some from going around corners sideways.
Some from killing cones in a parking lot.
Some from making the car "dance" with their hydros.
Some from racing at the desert.
Some from rock crawling.
Oddly enough, some from towing heavy things.

Thats enough examples, but you get the idea. You're a bright enough lad. Give us something. ANYTHING. It doesn't have to be defined in one sentence, but anything so that we, the "unenlightened masses/ thundering herd of ignorance" can finally be illumined to this fun that you are so hell bent on keeping secret.

Thank you.

+1

The 'tool for the job' thing is getting old esp. as you (Famine) have admitted they can handle and accelerate just as well as gas cars... so what makes them "less fun?" This is getting to be like those old arguments here w/ Poverty when he'd just say Audis are the best even in the face of logic and reason.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

*sees evidence towards diesels*

Otto cycle engines are best.

 

[Famine]

All that, and YOU STILL HAVEN'T defined your idea of fun, other than stating its highly subjective. I get that.

Thats enough examples, but you get the idea. You're a bright enough lad. Give us something. ANYTHING. It doesn't have to be defined in one sentence, but anything so that we, the "unenlightened masses/ thundering herd of ignorance" can finally be illumined to this fun that you are so hell bent on keeping secret.

Ohhh dear. It was looking promising there for a minute, but at the last second you pulled away. Hopefully the next bit, after M5Power's text, will get you back on track.

+1

The 'tool for the job' thing is getting old esp. as you (Famine) have admitted they can handle and accelerate just as well as gas cars... so what makes them "less fun?" This is getting to be like those old arguments here w/ Poverty when he'd just say Audis are the best even in the face of logic and reason.

Except I'm not stating that petrol is the best. If I were I wouldn't have pointed out all the positives for diesel now would I (and again, stating clear facts beforehand is hardly "admitted")? Or recommended you a diesel car as a solution to your posed problem (which I still reckon you could buy and import for less than your $30k budget).

You're getting so tangled up in proving how progressive you are, defending the wonderful diesel and attacking all those who dare question it that you're missing out a key word - you don't seem to understand quite what it is you're arguing against and if you did you wouldn't even be trying.

I wouldn't touch a diesel car with a pair of stolen hands.

Diesels suck! Only a moron should ever consider a diesel!

Then again, for a man who once pretended he'd bought a diesel, I probably oughtn't be too surprised.


Have you ever actually driven a diesel passenger car?

 

[niky]

Agreeing to disagree on a purely subjective point is obviously logically impossible.

*sees evidence towards diesels*

Otto cycle engines are best.

OMG no... Miller cycle r0xx0rz. It'll make a comeback anytime now... you'll see.

RE: R-Class: I wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole. Not until they hit the front end with the un-ugly stick. I'd take the Viano or Vito before that monstrosity.

RE: Top-of-the-line-Diesels: The Focus 2.0 TDCi, despite a quoted 10 hp deficit, actually makes 10 more hp than the gasser 2.0 on the dyno, thanks to overboost. Of course, the ST beats them both.

The 335d, in the absence of the M3, shares top-of-the-line status with the 335i, with similar horsepower. Having driven the diesel and the 35d engine back-to-back in the X6, I'd say that the diesel has better bottom end than the gasser, but the gasser still feels sweeter.

----

Slightly back on topic... how much will the Fusion Hybrid MSRP for?

 

[Famine]

Agreeing to disagree on a purely subjective point is obviously logically impossible.

Apparently so.

OMG no... Miller cycle r0xx0rz. It'll make a comeback anytime now... you'll see.

Mazda's Miller mill got several engine of the year awards from... whoever awards these things, several years in a row.

In fact I have an upcoming "little project" and I'm still not wholly decided whether to go for the KL-ZE (200hp/170lbft) or suck it up, modify the bonnet to clear and use the Miller (220hp/210lbft) which have the same engine mounting points - as does the car into which it'd go. I'd expect the ZE version to be quite brisk, but the supercharged Miller to be hilarity itself.

I'll pick one of these days.

RE: Top-of-the-line-Diesels: The Focus 2.0 TDCi, despite a quoted 10 hp deficit, actually makes 10 more hp than the gasser 2.0 on the dyno, thanks to overboost. Of course, the ST beats them both.

The 335d, in the absence of the M3, shares top-of-the-line status with the 335i, with similar horsepower. Having driven the diesel and the 35d engine back-to-back in the X6, I'd say that the diesel has better bottom end than the gasser, but the gasser still feels sweeter.

If the Focus is true, the TDCi wouldn't be top-of-the-line simply because Ford downplay it - and of course the ST exists. As does the M3.

Which is kind of the point really - the Ford ST models and the BMW ///M models (along with AMG) are halo cars and, apart from an ST trim badge on a 170hp diesel Mondeo, none of them use the derv. The only halo-badged car I can think of with a diesel is the vRS Fabia (even the Octavia of the time with the vRS badge was a petrol - though now they have a 170hp vRS diesel alongside the 200hp vRS petrol).

 

[Duke]

Dude. 40 more ft/lbs of torque? And the only thing standing in your way is some sheetmetal?

Why is this even a question?

 

[Famine]

Dude. 40 more ft/lbs of torque? And the only thing standing in your way is some sheetmetal?

Why is this even a question?

It's FWD. And the shafts normally only have to cope with 120lbft or so. That said, they're being changed anyway...

That and it's reasonable difficult to source the Miller and it's quite a lot more complex when it goes tits-up. The ZE I can get all in for about £600 (give or take an exchange rate).

But it'd be a hoot

 

[neanderthal]

So far you've said nothing. You've made an argument against diesels, but you haven't made YOUR argument/ case for anything else. And it begs the question. Except I'm not really sure what the question is because no argument has been made.

Detracting from one side and not making any points FOR your case is not a reasonable way to discuss things.

The part after M5Powers post (I assume the one right after mine) would be his signature or the text indicating that there is a case for diesels. Except you've been arguing against diesels.


I give up.

Ohhh dear. It was looking promising there for a minute, but at the last second you pulled away. Hopefully the next bit, after M5Power's text, will get you back on track.



Except I'm not stating that petrol is the best. If I were I wouldn't have pointed out all the positives for diesel now would I (and again, stating clear facts beforehand is hardly "admitted")? Or recommended you a diesel car as a solution to your posed problem (which I still reckon you could buy and import for less than your $30k budget).

You're getting so tangled up in proving how progressive you are, defending the wonderful diesel and attacking all those who dare question it that you're missing out a key word - you don't seem to understand quite what it is you're arguing against and if you did you wouldn't even be trying.





Then again, for a man who once pretended he'd bought a diesel, I probably oughtn't be too surprised.


Have you ever actually driven a diesel passenger car?

 

[YSSMAN]

Slightly back on topic... how much will the Fusion Hybrid MSRP for?

They'll be starting at $27K USD, but I'm unsure of what options it lacks there. My guess is that it is sans Nav (wouldn't want it anyway), and perhaps sans leather (don't need it either). Otherwise, you're pretty much shooting at $30K.

Car and Driver already thinks its the best Hybrid you can buy in the States, Motor Trend seemed to echo it in their test... And based on short reads of Automobile (among others), its a very good car. The EPA gave it an excellent fuel economy rating, and in most of the tests, they've been able to match it (or best it) when using the fancy fuel/EV/ecogage thing on the dash.

I didn't realize that it could travel up to 47 MPH on EV power alone. That is substantial if you live in a moderate sized town and travel mostly through the suburbs... An epic engineering win on behalf of Ford.

The only upset?

The sub-$20K Honda Insight. It just depends on what you're looking for...

 

[Famine]

So far you've said nothing. You've made an argument against diesels, but you haven't made YOUR argument/ case for anything else. And it begs the question. Except I'm not really sure what the question is because no argument has been made.

Niky gets it - so I'm pretty sure that everything I've said is clear enough for someone who doesn't necessarily use English as a first language...

Detracting from one side and not making any points FOR your case is not a reasonable way to discuss things.

The part after M5Powers post (I assume the one right after mine) would be his signature or the text indicating that there is a case for diesels. Except you've been arguing against diesels.

You just quoted it! I'll quote it again here for you:

Except I'm not stating that petrol is the best. If I were I wouldn't have pointed out all the positives for diesel now would I (and again, stating clear facts beforehand is hardly "admitted")? Or recommended you a diesel car as a solution to your posed problem (which I still reckon you could buy and import for less than your $30k budget).

You're getting so tangled up in proving how progressive you are, defending the wonderful diesel and attacking all those who dare question it that you're missing out a key word - you don't seem to understand quite what it is you're arguing against and if you did you wouldn't even be trying.

That appeared in my post immediately following the quoted text from M5Power. Thus "the next bit, after M5Power's text".

Except you've been arguing against diesels.

Except I haven't. If I were I'd have not pointed out how good diesels can be, and would have pointed out how good petrol engines are. Which I did, and didn't.

I give up.

That's the spirit!

 

[1X83Z]

That's the spirit!

I've never seen you - or any human being - use such awful logic to defend such incorrect, indefensible points. Furthermore, short of myself two years ago, I've never seen someone get so hilariously defensive over something posted on an Internet forum. I need a break from this place. God knows you do too.

 

[Famine]

I've never seen you - or any human being - use such awful logic to defend such incorrect, indefensible points. Furthermore, short of myself two years ago, I've never seen someone get so hilariously defensive over something posted on an Internet forum.

Amusingly, I'm not actually defending anything. Partly because the people on the crusade don't know what they're actually attacking, but mainly because what they don't know they're trying to attack is something that doesn't need defending anyway.

I need a break from this place.

Don't we get a thread this time?

God knows you do too.

Nah, I'm good. Besides, a bunch of my offline friends hang out here too.