A thread only about balancing CSA and nothing else

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When countersteering assist is activated, you should not also have control of the steering.

For example, on a sharp left hand corner, if the back end kicks out a little bit, you should not be able to have the assisted steering and still be able to turn the wheel to where you want. For the brief moment that the computer is countersteering, you should not also have control of the steering wheel. This is like having two steering sources which doesn't make sense to me.

If PD does this, I think that it will be fair for the less experienced drivers to be able to have some help countersteering, but it will give those who want to practice and do it themselves the chance and incentive to be able to countersteer manually better than the computer can for them (like how many of us do not use traction control).

Just to clarify, I know that many of the top guys do not use csa, and it is by no means game breaking.

Edit: My final thoughts are on Page 4. Thank you to everyone who stayed on topic!
 
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Isn't countersteering assist for when you light up the rear tyres punching out of a corner?
It's not something l use, but that was my interpretation of how it works.

I understand the argument of assists vs no assists, but how does taking steering control away from someone help them improve?

My way of thinking is that they learn how to counter power oversteer via the use of the aid.
Sure, l get that assists can be abused by people who should know better.
But looking at the lowest common denominator, it seems to do a reasonable job to me.

I can't see how nullifying that helps anyone, other than cancelling the advantage of those that can probably do without it.
 
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Isn't countersterring assist for when you light up the rear tyres punching out of a corner?
It's not something l use, but that was my interpretation of how it works.

I understand the argument of assists vs no assists, but how does taking steering control away from someone help them improve?

My way of thinking is that they learn how to counter power overseer via the use of the aid.
Sure, l get that assists can be abused by people who should know better.
But looking at the lowest common denominator, it seems to do a reasonable job to me.

I can't see how nullifying that helps anyone.

I get what you're saying, it would be difficult to learn how to countersteer yourself if the computer has complete control of the steering.
 
I get what you're saying, it would be difficult to learn how to countersteer yourself if the computer has complete control of the steering.
Essentially, Yeh.

Don't get me wrong, people are people and some will take advantage of anything that they feel gives them an edge.
And it's a little disappointing that some do so instead of simply accepting they need to practice more.

But as a learning tool, it probably does a decent job.
It also helps those less skilled keep the car pointing in the right direction.

So it's disappointing if some choose to use the aid when not required, but each to their own l guess.
It's hard to deny those looking for every advantage they can find in a competitive environment.
But if looked at in regards to its true intention, l think it's quite a good assist.
 
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So, all these threads about the assists available in the game, is because you think it's unfair compared to those not using them (except tc and abs)? Because you can go faster when using them?

It's an honest question, not trolling.
 
So, all these threads about the assists available in the game, is because you think it's unfair compared to those not using them (except tc and abs)? Because you can go faster when using them?

It's an honest question, not trolling.
To be fair to the OP, I'll take responsibility for raising that point.
And l raised it more than once.

Whether that was the intention behind the OP or not l dont know.
But l don't believe it was said as such.

So that was a point l raised in my response, but it wasn't intended as an intentional slight against those that use any assists.
 
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CSA doesn't make you faster, just makes you more consistent.

And it doesn't actually counter steer - it just acts as a very subtle traction control.

Looking at the amount of complaining about how poor some people's on-line experiences are, and watching videos from lower DR/SR levels (and how poor generally, car control is at these levels), I'd say a lot of people could benefit from using it.
 
CSA doesn't make you faster, just makes you more consistent.

And it doesn't actually counter steer - it just acts as a very subtle traction control.

Looking at the amount of complaining about how poor some people's on-line experiences are, and watching videos from lower DR/SR levels (and how poor generally, car control is at these levels), I'd say a lot of people could benefit from using it.

Any good racing school will initiate beginners on how to learn to control oversteer to the best of their ability, but on the sims, it seems the vast majority don't want to learn how to try and overcome this....maybe the smartphone is to blame. I dread to think what the pro drivers/judges at GTA would think of a finalist who bemoaned the fact there was no CSA on the cars selected to be used. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but years ago, I wanted to try and do this for real in either karts or cars so was aware that nobody would get any good by making things easy, so I went out of my way on GT to make everything as difficult as possible in order to get the knack of it, which took a while to get used to.
 
Any good racing school will initiate beginners on how to learn to control oversteer to the best of their ability, but on the sims, it seems the vast majority don't want to learn how to try and overcome this....maybe the smartphone is to blame. I dread to think what the pro drivers/judges at GTA would think of a finalist who bemoaned the fact there was no CSA on the cars selected to be used. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but years ago, I wanted to try and do this for real in either karts or cars so was aware that nobody would get any good by making things easy, so I went out of my way on GT to make everything as difficult as possible in order to get the knack of it, which took a while to get used to.

I don't really see (feel) many parallels between driving in real life and driving in video games beyond the general concept of driving.

In a real car, you have much more information to judge what the car is doing, and more accurate steering/brakes to control it. Plus you have real tyres that give more information about their grip levels, and don't seem to go from having full traction to zero traction with 1% more throttle.

In GTS, the majority are driving with a pad, and even those with a wheel have nothing like the same steering information as you'd get in a real car... neither has any of the momentum/seat of the pants feel/information.

Being good at GT (or any driving game) doesn't necessarily make you a good driver IRL, and vice versa.

I remain convinced the vast majority of players would have a massively better on-line experience if they chose cars they have a chance of controlling, switched on CSA and TC, and focused much more on learning race craft, and how to drive closely to other cars without making contact.

Learn the race craft. Car control will come with experience.
 
Actually , I learned to countersteer in GT1. The first time I experienced oversteer in a real car, the event didn't feel foreign and I knew new exactly what to do.
 
CSA doesn't make you faster, just makes you more consistent.

And it doesn't actually counter steer - it just acts as a very subtle traction control.

Looking at the amount of complaining about how poor some people's on-line experiences are, and watching videos from lower DR/SR levels (and how poor generally, car control is at these levels), I'd say a lot of people could benefit from using it.

I know it gets me faster lap times, even though I can usually put together a pretty consistent lap after a good bit of practice (and luck... that one sweet lap). I'm not top ten though... it would be interesting to know what times the top ten would get without it, I suspect even they would be a little slower.

Regardless, I think we agree it's an assist that doesn't make you at all slower, so the question is, is that 'right'? GT3 has TC IRL, so it does make sense to have a good TC - unlike PD's actual TC, which is awful. But should it have no downside at all?
 
I know it gets me faster lap times, even though I can usually put together a pretty consistent lap after a good bit of practice (and luck... that one sweet lap). I'm not top ten though... it would be interesting to know what times the top ten would get without it, I suspect even they would be a little slower.

Regardless, I think we agree it's an assist that doesn't make you at all slower, so the question is, is that 'right'? GT3 has TC IRL, so it does make sense to have a good TC - unlike PD's actual TC, which is awful. But should it have no downside at all?

Let me rephrase... CSA does not make a car faster.

I'm very occasionally top 10 (typically around 1s off top qualifying time), and ultimately, I can run as fast with it off as I can with it on... I get to my optimal lap in qualifying faster, and crash less often in a race with it on.

Some in the top 10's use it, some don't. The times I've checked, the very fastest don't use it (or TC).

Real life is irrelevant AFAIC. It's game not real life. Until the game can perfectly mimic real life people clinging to 'real GT3 cars don't have this or that' is just daft.
 
I think both CSA and ASM are wonderful tools to help new or beginning drivers or kids to hop into the game with no prior experience and be able to enjoy playing the game and in my opinion that is or should be at least its intent.

I do NOT think that either virtual world aid should be allowed in on line competitive races as it falsely exaggerates the skills of a driver to run at a certain pace and/or with consistency lap after lap in a racing environment.

Also from what I seem to observe when a driver using these aids makes certain mistakes his penalty for making those mistakes such as loss of pace or time to competitors cars whom are mistake free is much less or reduced compared to a driver making the same mistakes that does not employ those aids.

I personally think virtual world only aids should be limited to new drivers and only allowed in the very lowest of rankings as a new driver learns to properly control their car.

Competitive racing should be about the actual gamer driving and controlling the car as much as possible without the computer aiding with aids that are not available for use in real world motorsports.
 
Let me rephrase... CSA does not make a car faster.

I'm very occasionally top 10 (typically around 1s off top qualifying time), and ultimately, I can run as fast with it off as I can with it on... I get to my optimal lap in qualifying faster, and crash less often in a race with it on.

Some in the top 10's use it, some don't. The times I've checked, the very fastest don't use it (or TC).

Real life is irrelevant AFAIC. It's game not real life. Until the game can perfectly mimic real life people clinging to 'real GT3 cars don't have this or that' is just daft.

OK, I get your point about top ten simply attaining their fastest lap more quickly. And perhaps those that don't use it only choose that out of honour. However, for most beneath that I think it's fair to say that it makes them faster.

Yes, real life is irrelevant to a point, it's only useful to a game as inspiration - certainly not something to be slavishly followed. I was just musing on what assists in game should do. The key question is simply whether any in-game assist should come with no downside. Personally I think not, because it's better to make it a strategical choice.

On the other hand, PD's TC takes so much time out of a lap that people aren't using it, even those at a level where at least one spin during a race is typical - the trade-off is so big it makes it still worth turning TC off for them.
 
OK, I get your point about top ten simply attaining their fastest lap more quickly. And perhaps those that don't use it only choose that out of honour. However, for most beneath that I think it's fair to say that it makes them faster.

Yes, real life is irrelevant to a point, it's only useful to a game as inspiration - certainly not something to be slavishly followed. I was just musing on what assists in game should do. The key question is simply whether any in-game assist should come with no downside. Personally I think not, because it's better to make it a strategical choice.

On the other hand, PD's TC takes so much time out of a lap that people aren't using it, even those at a level where at least one spin during a race is typical - the trade-off is so big it makes it still worth turning TC off for them.

There’s nothing wrong with the way TC works in GTS… it only kills your lap times if you don’t know how/you’re not capable of getting the best out of it.

If you lean on TC, it works very well as a safety net, and the lap time penalty is minimal.

If you abuse TC, the lap time penalty is significant.

Drive properly, minimise your steering angle/understeer at the apex, build throttle input progressively and you’ll not trigger it anywhere near as much as someone who over drives on entry, builds understeer, then jumps on the throttle expecting TC to somehow give them a perfect exit.

Same applies to CSA (which is just a very subtle TC).
 
There’s nothing wrong with the way TC works in GTS… it only kills your lap times if you don’t know how/you’re not capable of getting the best out of it.

If you lean on TC, it works very well as a safety net, and the lap time penalty is minimal.

If you abuse TC, the lap time penalty is significant.

Drive properly, minimise your steering angle/understeer at the apex, build throttle input progressively and you’ll not trigger it anywhere near as much as someone who over drives on entry, builds understeer, then jumps on the throttle expecting TC to somehow give them a perfect exit.

Same applies to CSA (which is just a very subtle TC).

Really? Only occasionally do I try it, but when I do it's after running a good number of laps in quali, just to see if it will help me. It never does, and the time penalty is distinctly noticable - I don't know how much you'd call 'minimal' - it may be less than 1 sec per lap, but that adds up over a race distance. That is with driving it with the same style as without it, fairly smooth and not overly ham-fisted, although I am using sticks. (For reference, quali about 1 sec outside top ten is good for me).

The same cannot be said for CSA.
 
I know it gets me faster lap times, even though I can usually put together a pretty consistent lap after a good bit of practice (and luck... that one sweet lap). I'm not top ten though... it would be interesting to know what times the top ten would get without it, I suspect even they would be a little slower.

Regardless, I think we agree it's an assist that doesn't make you at all slower, so the question is, is that 'right'? GT3 has TC IRL, so it does make sense to have a good TC - unlike PD's actual TC, which is awful. But should it have no downside at all?

The aids make me slower. It varies how much slower I go, but I am always slower.

IRL the computer makes something that is undriveable, driveable.

The thing is, this discussion is about the in game aids. The game has a boatload of inaccessible aids built into it. You wouldn't be able to drive at all without them. It's a standard practice.

Can you imagine trying to drive a Le Mans prototype with a DS4 in real life?
 
Really? Only occasionally do I try it, but when I do it's after running a good number of laps in quali, just to see if it will help me. It never does, and the time penalty is distinctly noticable - I don't know how much you'd call 'minimal' - it may be less than 1 sec per lap, but that ahdds up over a race distance. That is with driving it with the same style as without it, fairly smooth and not overly ham-fisted, although I am using sticks. (For reference, quali about 1 sec outside top ten is good for me).

The same cannot be said for CSA.

I'm typically about 1s off the top qualifying time on a grp3 leaderboard for the real tracks (I don't race on the fake tracks)... so just inside/just outside the top 10, depending on the track/how many aliens have run qualifying!

For me, the penalty is significantly less than 0.5s a lap on average... but as I said, I'm not jumping on the throttle at the apex... I'm feeding the power in and only having TC on at all to catch those odd occasions when I get slightly over ambitious with the throttle. Most laps, I wouldn't even see it trigger other than the brief flash during gear changes.

I would think you'd have to be super skilled with sticks to be able to do this though - most wheel users can't consistently hold their car at the grip limit (front and rear) through even a single corner, never mind a whole lap or a complete race.
 
I know it gets me faster lap times, even though I can usually put together a pretty consistent lap after a good bit of practice (and luck... that one sweet lap). I'm not top ten though... it would be interesting to know what times the top ten would get without it, I suspect even they would be a little slower.

Regardless, I think we agree it's an assist that doesn't make you at all slower, so the question is, is that 'right'? GT3 has TC IRL, so it does make sense to have a good TC - unlike PD's actual TC, which is awful. But should it have no downside at all?
I was slower with it. I could feel it working , I was tripping my self up reacting to things I expected the car to do that never happened. Only gave it a try for less than a lap at Suzuka, It really came down to feel for me.
 
I can run as fast with it off as I can with it on... I get to my optimal lap in qualifying faster, and crash less often in a race with it on.

Same applies to CSA (which is just a very subtle TC).

The biggest difference I see with the aids is that ABS and TCS are aids that are employed in many forms of real world motorsports and as such have a "place" in being allowed in a racing game that strives to imitate the real world racing experience to a large degree.

Although CSA and ASM are basically just "virtual world" aids which have no application or use allowed in real world motorsports and hence their use basically just falsely enhances a drivers ability to maintain a certain pace or to minimize the effect of making driving mistakes compared to a driver that does not use such aids.

Even its use among the no doubt very skilled top drivers still enhances their ability to try to run that extra few tenths of a lap in race pace that without these aids would be more of a risk to run that little faster more on the edge pace.

For these reasons I do not think they should be allowed except to very beginning drivers in the lowest ranks and the top ranked drivers that turn these top times without the use of these virtual world aids in my opinion show much more confidence in their actual driving skills by not employing the use of the virtual world aids than a driver that employs the aids.
 
The aids make me slower. It varies how much slower I go, but I am always slower.

IRL the computer makes something that is undriveable, driveable.

The thing is, this discussion is about the in game aids. The game has a boatload of inaccessible aids built into it. You wouldn't be able to drive at all without them. It's a standard practice.

Can you imagine trying to drive a Le Mans prototype with a DS4 in real life?

Are you saying that CSA makes you slower? I think you'd be the first I've seen saying that.

Yes, it's about game aids. Yes there's a bunch of stuff that helps, particularly for DS4.

The only reason I mentioned TC at all is because CSA is essentially TC 1 or 2 working much, much better (more realistic than TC 1 or 2, IMO).

I'm typically about 1s off the top qualifying time on a grp3 leaderboard for the real tracks (I don't race on the fake tracks)... so just inside/just outside the top 10, depending on the track/how many aliens have run qualifying!

For me, the penalty is significantly less than 0.5s a lap on average... but as I said, I'm not jumping on the throttle at the apex... I'm feeding the power in and only having TC on at all to catch those odd occasions when I get slightly over ambitious with the throttle. Most laps, I wouldn't even see it trigger other than the brief flash during gear changes.

I would think you'd have to be super skilled with sticks to be able to do this though - most wheel users can't consistently hold their car at the grip limit (front and rear) through even a single corner, never mind a whole lap or a complete race.

I do my best, which judging from the results isn't too bad :) But even so, I do have to tolerate some wheel spin (rarely spin out, just brief over-cook moments in low gear corner exits). That probably causes TC 1 to add about 0.5 to 1 secs more per lap, and a fair bit more with TC 2. To add insult to injury, I don't find TC 1 helps/saves me from myself much at all!

But both of you are going off on tangents to the main point - should CSA come with some (or more) downside to using it? Would the game be better if it did, or worse? Does it bias the game too much towards racing skill as opposed to driving skill, or not?

I'm not really asking just about top ten or 'reference' times, rather over all players. Most of them using DS4, I imagine.

I was slower with it. I could feel it working , I was tripping my self up reacting to things I expected the car to do that never happened. Only gave it a try for less than a lap at Suzuka, It really came down to feel for me.

I had the same the first time I used it, but very quickly got used to it. To some extent it depends on the car - some are more 'unnatural' (for want of a better word) with it than others.
 
The thing about CSA and why I think it's a bit too good in my experience is I don't want to be driving in a state that CSA prevents. Whereas with ASM, there are noticeable benefits to driving in a state that ASM on would prevent. The S-curves at Yamagiwa are a great example. With ASM on, in the Mustang Gr3, you can take those curves at 135mph max. But with ASM off, sure it's unstable but you can hit 140mph+ on those curves.

But I can't manage the oversteer better than the CSA does and I don't benefit from the oversteer that CSA off would allow. For balance it needs a noticeable equivalent to my ASM off example.
 
Are you saying that CSA makes you slower? I think you'd be the first I've seen saying that.

Yes, it's about game aids. Yes there's a bunch of stuff that helps, particularly for DS4.

The only reason I mentioned TC at all is because CSA is essentially TC 1 or 2 working much, much better (more realistic than TC 1 or 2, IMO).



I do my best, which judging from the results isn't too bad :) But even so, I do have to tolerate some wheel spin (rarely spin out, just brief over-cook moments in low gear corner exits). That probably causes TC 1 to add about 0.5 to 1 secs more per lap, and a fair bit more with TC 2. To add insult to injury, I don't find TC 1 helps/saves me from myself much at all!

But both of you are going off on tangents to the main point - should CSA come with some (or more) downside to using it? Would the game be better if it did, or worse? Does it bias the game too much towards racing skill as opposed to driving skill, or not?

I'm not really asking just about top ten or 'reference' times, rather over all players. Most of them using DS4, I imagine.



I had the same the first time I used it, but very quickly got used to it. To some extent it depends on the car - some are more 'unnatural' (for want of a better word) with it than others.
Unnatural describes it perfectly.
 
I don't really see (feel) many parallels between driving in real life and driving in video games beyond the general concept of driving.

In a real car, you have much more information to judge what the car is doing, and more accurate steering/brakes to control it. Plus you have real tyres that give more information about their grip levels, and don't seem to go from having full traction to zero traction with 1% more throttle.

In GTS, the majority are driving with a pad, and even those with a wheel have nothing like the same steering information as you'd get in a real car... neither has any of the momentum/seat of the pants feel/information.

Being good at GT (or any driving game) doesn't necessarily make you a good driver IRL, and vice versa.

I remain convinced the vast majority of players would have a massively better on-line experience if they chose cars they have a chance of controlling, switched on CSA and TC, and focused much more on learning race craft, and how to drive closely to other cars without making contact.

Learn the race craft. Car control will come with experience.

The assists are fine for absolute beginners, but unfortunately they will cloud the beginners' learning of how to sight-read the road ahead in the correct fashion because they don't highlight to them what they have done wrong. And, to the the best of my knowledge, the methods for the sims and real life are the same. So it's always likely that less than ideal habits over time will be hardened and very difficult to get out of once the user is made aware of them.

Also, the driver view makes a big difference as well, with bumper view giving the earliest warning the car is about to lose grip and chase view the latest. I think the driver list on the LHS and lap times on the RHS interfer with sighting the corner exits on a lot of hairpins which masks where beginners should be looking as they enter a corner. You can't apply the throttle confidently unless you really know precisely where the car is going to be placed two seconds before.

Seeing how things have panned out now with the TT leaderboards, I don't have a problem with those using them who make A races. So long as they are civilised with them and as they certainly don't offer a speed advantage with no tire wear, I think assists users would only really reap the benefits in a long race with tire wear because it would be less tiring and more consistent.
 
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How can u properly counter steer on ds4 just wondering. I bet most people complaining about it don't use ds4.
back in the day I used to rapidly alternate left right inputs, same for not breaking traction , rapidly tapping on and off throttle. This was before analog control tho. Not sure if it's still possible.
 
back in the day I used to rapidly alternate left right inputs, same for not breaking traction , rapidly tapping on and off throttle. This was before analog control tho. Not sure if it's still possible.
So how are you counter steering on your DS4 in GTS? Just wondering how the experts do it
 
But both of you are going off on tangents to the main point - should CSA come with some (or more) downside to using it? Would the game be better if it did, or worse? Does it bias the game too much towards racing skill as opposed to driving skill, or not?

As I said earlier, they don't make the cars any faster in absolute terms, they just make the cars a bit easier to drive - Given how many players seem to be having a poor on-line experience, I think anything that makes it easier for them to compete and enjoy the game is a good thing.

Interestingly, I don't think I've ever heard anyone properly fast complain about others using aids.

However, for some reason it does seem to be a semi-regular discussion topic for a group of middling level drivers who like to talk a lot about 'car control' and 'driving ability'... the same driver that are leaving multiple seconds of their cars potential on the track every time they run a lap... why does it bother this group so much that others use the aids?

They'd be far better off using their energy to practice and get better :)
 
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