50 dead at Orlando club shooting.

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There is a reason why I say Islam isn't for a secular society, because it is a political religion, Sharia Law is it's political Law and is the Law in plenty of Muslim dominated countries.

As a legal system, the Sharia law covers a very wide range of topics. While other legal codes deal primarily with public behavior, Sharia law covers public behavior, private behavior and private beliefs.

According to the Sharia law and after due process and investigation:

  • Habitual theft past a specific threshold, and after repeated warnings, is punishable by amputation of a hand.
  • The punishment for adultery and fornication such that it becomes a public ordeal, according to the Holy Qur'an, is lashing. Before the revelation of these verses, Muhammad followed the Judaic law in implementing the punishment of death by stoning. This was only given if the person admitted to it repeatedly, was not intoxicated and knew the repercussions. Even then, if during the punishment he repented, he was to be released.
  • A woman is allowed to be accompanied by another woman in giving testimony in court for financial affairs
  • A female heir inherits half of what a male heir inherits. The concept being that Islam puts the responsibility of earning and spending on the family on the male. Any wealth the female earns is strictly for her own use. The female also inherits from both her immediate family and through agency of her husband, her in-laws as well.

The point is The Religion is not a Personal Religion and effects others under it's own system, thus it's incapatable with Secular society.


https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia_law
 
mustafur
The point is The Religion is not a Personal Religion and effects others under it's own system, thus it's incapatable with Secular society.
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It's no different from Judaism and Christianity. People pick and choose what they want from these religions. The Old Testament is very similar to the Koran in that it provides rules and advice, most of which make no sense in a modern society. This is why many Christians and Jews don't follow those old laws. The same goes for Muslims.

It wasn't all that long ago (it's still happening) that some Christians were arguing that gay marriage should be illegal because it didn't fit with their definition of marriage. If that's not pushing your religion on others, I don't know what is.

EDIT

If you want a Christian region that parallels the Middle East, just look at Africa.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...1adbb2-9032-11e3-84e1-27626c5ef5fb_story.html

There, similar pressures are driving people toward extreme acts of violence. It just so happens that at this point, the Christians are the aggressors with the upper-hand.
 
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Exorcet
It's no different from Judaism and Christianity. People pick and choose what they want from these religions. The Old Testament is very similar to the Koran in that it provides rules and advice, most of which make no sense in a modern society. This is why many Christians and Jews don't follow those old laws. The same goes for Muslims.

It wasn't all that long ago (it's still happening) that some Christians were arguing that gay marriage should be illegal because it didn't fit with their definition of marriage. If that's not pushing your religion on others, I don't know what is.
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How many Christians ignore the New testament for the Old testament which is basically teaches being Peaceful and respectful of others?

Your ignoring reality completely if you think the old testament in the Quran is used by the majority of Muslims as the word of Islam over the new testament.

Your comparing theory and not that reality of the situation.

Whilst plenty of secular countries are not fully secular, you can't logically make the argument that not allowing Gay marriage is the equivalent of Death for being gay when it comes to forcing your beliefs on others.
 
mustafur
How many Christians ignore the New testament for the Old testament which is basically all Peaceful and respectful of others?
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Why does the number matter? That is influenced by more than just the religions themselves.

Your ignoring reality completely if you think the old testament in the Quran is used by the majority of Muslims as the word of Islam over the new testament
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What I am saying is that all these religions can easily provide some kind of justification for violence. That Islam is considered a larger problem right now is down to many factors outside of religion. Muslims have as much capacity to fit in with other groups as other religious people do. They do it all the time.



Whilst plenty of secular countries are not fully secular, you can't logically make the argument that not allowing Gay marriage is the equivalent of Death for being gay when it comes to forcing your beliefs on others.
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It's a case of "You're not following my religion, so you're wrong". What is different?
 
Exorcet
Why does the number matter? That is influenced by more than just the religions themselves.
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Because Society is based on people, people you have to live with.

What I am saying is that all these religions can easily provide some kind of justification for violence. That Islam is considered a larger problem right now is down to many factors outside of religion. Muslims have as much capacity to fit in with other groups as other religious people do. They do it all the time.
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Statistics, surveys and a Basic knowledge of the Quran says otherwise.

It's a case of "You're not following my religion, so you're wrong". What is different?
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The ability to Live compared to Die, ever ask the gay community what they value more?

Also when you use a Christian Militia as an Example of Christian aggressors maybe you should fact check first.

The country in Question had it's government overthrown by a Muslim Rebel group called Saleka who put it's leader as the president who then went on a Christian cleansing spree in the majority Christian nation, this aggressor you speak of was basically Blowback from said aggression pushed towards them.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...d-11e3-8d24-31c016b976b2_story.html?tid=a_inl
 
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mustafur
Because Society is based on people, people you have to live with.
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People will react differently in different situations. If a larger percentage of one specific group is exposed to conditions that breed violence, you can't conclude that said group is naturally more inclined to violence.

Statistics, surveys and a Basic knowledge of the Quran says otherwise.
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How so? The amounts don't change anything. There are Muslims that don't interfere with other people's lives all over the US and Europe. There are also Christians that do the opposite. If you get caught up looking only at the divide as it stands now, your putting yourself at risk for more trouble when demographics shift.

Christian nations weren't ruled by racist foreigners and economically exploited like Islamic nations in the Middle East. That is what drives the problems in these regions today. Under developed economies and a history of ruling by force.

The ability to Live compared to Die, ever ask the gay community what they value more?
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This goes beyond the gay community. Christians aren't above killing anyway, just look into attack on abortion clinics for examples where Christians in the US kill for their views.
 
Exorcet
People will react differently in different situations. If a larger percentage of one specific group is exposed to conditions that breed violence, you can't conclude that said group is naturally more inclined to violence.
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When one group controls the law with violence in it's decree I would say otherwise.


Christian nations weren't ruled by racist foreigners and economically exploited like Islamic nations in the Middle East. That is what drives the problems in these regions today. Under developed economies and a history of ruling by force.
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I ask do you know what a Caliphate is? and please explain to me how The Gulf states are under Developed Economies.


This goes beyond the gay community. Christians aren't above killing anyway, just look into attack on abortion clinics for examples where Christians in the US kill for their views.
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But lets see the US Government do the same as Country's Ran by Sharia and execute Homosexuals, Apostates and the like for trying to live a secular life.

Simple fact is you still haven't worked out what Secularism is.
 
So in the wake of redacted statements, are any of you still arguing this was purely homosexual? That is to say, with the US government going out of its way to redact statements (by the shooter) pledging allegiance to ISIl, are you still arguing gun control or is it becoming a matter of extremist Islamic terrorism?

But still, if I'm out of place, continue on about how controlling guns will stop this violence. #parisandalltheotherplaceswithoutguns.
 
TenEightyOne
I'm a bit confused about that article... yesterday morning (UK time) the info was here, that would have been very early Monday in Murricy-time, no?
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We can only guess about Obama and Lynch's true motives in this case, and others for that matter. I won't bother trying to guess, it's a fruitless exercise around here.
 
The funny thing I see about this whole matter is the failure to talk about the importance of property rights and free association but instead all we're getting is more calls to invent more special rights for gays, an expansion of the national security state and the further disregard for property rights in the form of more gun prohibition laws.

Anyhow with the exception of Christina Grimmie's vicious, senseless and cowardly murder the shooting a the Pulse club didn't hit me much.

Yes nobody deserves to lose their life, but I see the deaths at Pulse as just another example of club/nightlife violence, this time from an disgrundled gay man who decided to go postal.

Another thing this shooting had nothing to do with either terrorism or homophobia as the pundits keep saying.
 
A2K78
The funny thing I see about this whole matter is the failure to talk about the importance of property rights and free association but instead all we're getting is more calls to invent more special rights for gays, an expansion of the national security state and the further disregard for property rights in the form of more gun prohibition laws.

Anyhow with the exception of Christina Grimmie's vicious, senseless and cowardly murder the shooting a the Pulse club didn't hit me much.

Yes nobody deserves to lose their life, but I see the deaths at Pulse as just another example of club/nightlife violence, this time from an disgrundled gay man who decided to go postal.

Another thing this shooting had nothing to do with either terrorism or homophobia as the pundits keep saying.
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So absolutely nothing in the released transcripts means anything and/or you believe that he just did this because he wanted to kill people?
 
A2K78
The funny thing I see about this whole matter is the failure to talk about the importance of property rights and free association
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That old chestnut? Despite numerous calls for you to actually explain what you mean I don't recall you ever doing so. Got a source?

A2K78
all we're getting is more calls to invent more special rights for gays
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Source?

A2K78
an expansion of the national security state
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Source?

A2K78
Anyhow with the exception of Christina Grimmie's vicious, senseless and cowardly murder the shooting a the Pulse club didn't hit me much.
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What... you thought they were related? Oh pur-lease.

A2K78
Yes nobody deserves to lose their life, but I see the deaths at Pulse as just another example of club/nightlife violence, this time from an disgrundled gay man who decided to go postal.
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That goes more to your agenda on nightclubs (and your disgrundlement with them) that the agenda of most "normal" people, surely?

A2K78
Another thing this shooting had nothing to do with either terrorism or homophobia as the pundits keep saying.
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How so? You should probably share the details with the FBI too seeing as you must have a direct line ;)
 
mister dog
True, like I said before Islam could use an urgent reformation and look at the more progressive countries. But of course then the conservative part will point to the literal translation of the Sharia, and say that this progressive style is Western and Haram. So basically you are in a deadlock here.
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Who said that you can't take or learn stuff from other cultures/regions? Especially if it could help the region.
Afghanistan serves as one of the big examples for that, also in Daesh country it's the same. Women are forced to stay inside and can only go out whilst accompanied by a male family member and totally covered up.
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So if a "country" like Daesh did something stupid like this then why should you believe that the whole Islamic-majority country's believe in that? Daesh are the same people who caused destruction and fear, who'd also suicide and bomb people at the same time.
As in receiving the same medieval punishments for, what we see in the western world, ridiculous stuff? No. No one should endure this in the 21st century frankly.
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We could easily ignore that extreme punishments, just like how others did and again we should learn stuff from other regions.
There's tons of examples of young girls (children even), being married to old perverts across the Muslim world. The optional/ free will factor is definitely non existent in those cases, and i'm pretty sure also with a lot of marriages which involves people of a similar age.
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It's their acts, not what the religion suggested to do. By your logic, my entire family which contains of 6 people (including me) are already married when in reality non of my brothers or sister are married yet.

Dan
Oh 🤬 you. We don't want more rights than heterosexual people. We just want to be treated the same. IE: Not thrown off rooftops or beheaded for being born a certain way.
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Uh..i thought Homosexuals are changed throughout life by the family, environment and the community. Not born immediately homo's, just saying.
 
Kent
So in the wake of redacted statements, are any of you still arguing this was purely homosexual?
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I don't recall anybody arguing that it was "purely homosexual" in the first place. Just a few folks saying we should wait and see what the facts were instead of jumping to conclusions.

Kent
That is to say, with the US government going out of its way to redact statements (by the shooter) pledging allegiance to ISIl, are you still arguing gun control or is it becoming a matter of extremist Islamic terrorism?
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Are the terrorism and gun control questions necessarily mutually exclusive?

Kent
But still, if I'm out of place, continue on about how controlling guns will stop this violence.
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Why do you take it so personally that some people weren't as eager as you to jump to conclusions?
 
@ToyGTone Just wanted to ask some questions about your faith.

What is your views on the Salafi Movement?

and Do you agree with Sharia being the law of your country?
 
S_Bridge
Nope.
It's fairly well established that it's a "the way you're born" thing.
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Dan
What @S_Bridge said. Also, homosexuality has been observed in several hundred species in the wild. I forget the exact number, but it's at least 200.
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Okay fine, shoot me for being an idiot.
mustafur
@ToyGTone Just wanted to ask some questions about your faith.

You say your Sunni Muslim, would you class your belief in the Wahhabi sect?

What is your views on the Salafi Movement?

and Do you agree with Sharia being the law of your country?
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No, No and No. I don't wanna get into arguments of Sunni and Shia or Salafi and Brotherhood...etc because i feel like i'm forced to do such thing that apply's to them or else i get hated because for some difference. I want to do what i want to, i wanna be who i want to be. I don't want to stick my nose because they're different. As long's as they are not harming me then i'm fine. Let them be who they want to, just don't hate me for simply being different.

And i rather have a law that's acceptable by everyone rather than certain people so that means no.
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I regret posting in the Opinions & Current Events, i feel like i have made some people hate me.
 
ToyGTone
Okay fine, shoot me for being an idiot.

No, No and No. I don't wanna get into arguments of Sunni and Shia or Salafi and Brotherhood...etc because i feel like i'm forced to do such thing that apply's to them or else i get hated because for some difference. I want to do what i want to, i wanna be who i want to be. I don't want to stick my nose because they're different. As long's as they are not harming me then i'm fine. Let them be who they want to, just don't hate me for simply being different.

And i rather have a law that's acceptable by everyone rather than certain people so that means no.
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I regret posting in the Opinions & Current Events, i feel like i have made some people hate me.
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So you don't believe in the literal and anti-rationalist form of Islam, so Pretty much everything I have said about the doctrine doesn't apply to your beliefs.

I live in a Secular country like most here on GTP and I want it to remain a Secular country, so you should understand why I would be hostile to a sect such as the Salafi movement which threatens it, and from what you have said means so are you.

It is important though that people are aware of this movement to understand groups such as ISIS and what threats this movement can provide to those that don't understand the religious side of it.
 
ToyGTone
And i rather have a law that's acceptable by everyone rather than certain people so that means no.
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If it's acceptable to everyone you don't need it do you? ;) Laws are generally unacceptable to those that break them.
 
huskeR32
I don't recall anybody arguing that it was "purely homosexual" in the first place. Just a few folks saying we should wait and see what the facts were instead of jumping to conclusions.



Are the terrorism and gun control questions necessarily mutually exclusive?



Why do you take it so personally that some people weren't as eager as you to jump to conclusions?
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Not recalling it and never having happened are two different things. Plenty of people were quick to point out that all signs pointed to this being about sexuality with no actual ties to Islamic terrorism.

No, terrorism and gun control are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

What makes you think I took anything personally or that I was jumping to conclusions any more than anyone else?

But that said, thanks for doing such a bang-up job of addressing the question I asked. :D
 
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A2K78
Yes nobody deserves to lose their life, but I see the deaths at Pulse as just another example of club/nightlife violence, this time from an disgrundled gay man who decided to go postal.
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Show me where in the club someone touched you.


Because it's the only conclusion I can come to as to why you're pinning this on a nightclub and nothing else.
 
ToyGTone
I don't wanna get into arguments of Sunni and Shia or Salafi and Brotherhood...etc because i feel like i'm forced to do such thing that apply's to them or else i get hated because for some difference. I want to do what i want to, i wanna be who i want to be. I don't want to stick my nose because they're different. As long's as they are not harming me then i'm fine.
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I don't believe that you don't care about harm coming to others. Hence why....
ToyGTone
I regret posting in the Opinions & Current Events, i feel like i have made some people hate me.
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.... you shouldn't regret.

Yes, we might point out a quote like the one in bold above, and press you about it - but as quick as people are to interrogate someone, they are often just as quick to retract and even apologise for any overly harsh or unwarranted judgements. We can all be good people and still disagree about what is right and fair, and without becoming vindictive. But for a few rogues, I think that's how it is in here. No doubt it can be difficult though, and I know that from experience, but it's a bit of a "no pain, no gain" situation.

Chin up. You'll be fine.
 

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