A note about brakes and ABS in GT5

[CoolColJ]

The problem with braking is mainly that when I press my brake pedal for a half, it's fully pressed in-game...
Logitech G25.

Press it all the way down when you first start the driving in GT5, it will calibrate it

 

[bodger]

A nice topic really.

I used to turn off all ABS back in GT5P - and I had little (yet controllable) problem;

But now in the full GT5, I believe the system is broken:

- even for a ~100HP Nissan March approaching a corner at ~130-150kmh, the entire car spins towards the right under heavy braking (~70-90% of braking force). If you used only 50% of braking force, you should be OK even without ABS. But again, it's not realistic.

- as soon as most of us here set ABS to 1, we have no problem anymore. Even a twitchy Lotus Elise is very stable under heavy braking when it approaches turn-1 of Fuji Speedway after the very long straight

- conclusion: even for the purists, there is no shame in turning (at least some) ABS on. The physics engine is flawed anyway.

If you read the first post, you would have found that if you adjust the brake bias the braking with ABS at 0 becomes much better balanced and more realistic. Try it.

 

[Bluez_Freak]

Someone explain to me why there is adjustable ABS in this game and not in real life. I thought it was either you have it or you don't, on or off. Why is the default setting at 1? are the higher settings not realistic and act more of an aid to help turn the car for noobies?

I'm curious also about this...

What's the point in having ABS 10 or 1??

It's either preventing tyres from blocking (ON) or not (OFF).

 

[Sohvakettu]

Press it all the way down when you first start the driving in GT5, it will calibrate it

When the race starts or when the game starts?

 

[bodger]

I'm curious also about this...

What's the point in having ABS 10 or 1??

It's either preventing tyres from blocking (ON) or not (OFF).

There could be graduation suppose. At its lowest level (1) it could be allowing some locking under extremely heavy braking. Where as at the highest level, absolutely no locking is allowed. Not a feature of a real car, obviously, but a feature put in as a graduated game assist.

 

[Sohvakettu]

Someone explain to me why there is adjustable ABS in this game and not in real life. I thought it was either you have it or you don't, on or off. Why is the default setting at 1? are the higher settings not realistic and act more of an aid to help turn the car for noobies?

I think ABS always allows some amount of slip to happen. In game terms the higher the value the less slip is allowed. Not sure though as i have tried to learn to drive with ABS off.

 

[CoolColJ]

When the race starts or when the game starts?

When the race starts, just need to do it once and it should be fine for the time the GT5 is running

 

[Sohvakettu]

When the race starts, just need to do it once and it should be fine for the time the GT5 is running

Thank you. Will try this first thing i get to play next time! 👍

 

[shirakawaa]

Someone explain to me why there is adjustable ABS in this game and not in real life. I thought it was either you have it or you don't, on or off. Why is the default setting at 1? are the higher settings not realistic and act more of an aid to help turn the car for noobies?

ABS 1 strives to minimize stopping distances at all costs.
ABS 10 allows more steering control in corners while braking, sacrificing stopping distances a bit.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

My compliments to wook and many others posting here.

Very informative and helpful thread.

 

[BWX]

I never use ABS ever in GT5. I use a G25 with a stiffer modded brake pedal. As you saw in simracingtonight's youtube video review of GT5, they mention no brake pedal adjustment such as linearity. Also they mentioned that the pedal was super sensitive.

I posted in the comments of that video that you could use the brake bias adjustment in all cars like a brake pedal sensitivity adjustment and he agreed and will put that in their GT5 review part two.

It's true, I use 3F/2R as a starting point and my break pedal is WAY less touchy. I can go down to 2F/1R and have to push the pedal to the floor to get the brakes to lock up on most cars with warm tires in a straight line. The point is that when you push the pedal all the way down you are still getting 100% of braking power, it just happens further down the pedal travel with lower numbers use in bias setting- that has been my experience. I have never tried zero, I don't even know if it's possible to set it that low, never tried.

People with a pedal, try it, you'll see. Most of you probably already know that though.

 

[CoolColJ]

You want the brakes to lock at low speed, then you know set up your braking force properly. The brakes usually won't lock at high speeds, so you just ease up as the car slows.

If you set it so it never locks up, even at low speed, then your not maximising your braking power

 

[DenYaSon]

Why is there no option to upgrade to ceramic brakes in the tuning section.

 

[Sturdy]

Why is there no option to upgrade to ceramic brakes in the tuning section.

Because GT5 doesn't simulate brake fade, which is what ceramic brakes help beat.

 

[niky]

To be honest, just about no car come with the ability to turn off the ABS(some do but it's smoke and mirrors) in real life anyway.

It's called the ABS fuse.

There could be graduation suppose. At its lowest level (1) it could be allowing some locking under extremely heavy braking. Where as at the highest level, absolutely no locking is allowed. Not a feature of a real car, obviously, but a feature put in as a graduated game assist.

I wonder. Don't have GT5 yet, but in previous GTs, I never felt much in the way of locking even at ABS 1, whereas some real-life cars allow a fair bit of locking (at certain tires... depending if they're using 3 or 4 channel ABS) before kicking in.

Is there any locking or sign of locking at ABS 1 in GT5?

Someone complained about brake upgrades, GT5 needs to simulate brake fade for brake upgrades to make sense. Brake kits don't make your car stop faster, they just prevent brake fade. Unless your car is driving on drum brakes...no wonder that Skyline 2000GT-B stops so horribly. Not sure why every car automatically came with a brake controller, they should have made you purchase that yourself, and let the cars ride on their actual brake bias they come with.

Much testing in GT4 with the aftermarket brakes produced inconsistent results. Which is pretty true to life... ...you would have to have the drum brakes off a bike for your first stop to be remarkably improved by an aftermarket brake kit... and since there was no fade in GT4, all the stops were basically the same.

If GT5 still doesn't have brake fade, then it makes sense that they finally dropped that feature.

 

[bodger]

I

Is there any locking or sign of locking at ABS 1 in GT5?

Kind of. There is in terms of sound. The tyres squeal under heavy braking on most cars at level 1. There is a massive difference between 1 and 0 in terms of car control. You can lose control into the entry of a corner fairly easily when locking up when it is set to 0. 1, not much at all - it possibly lengthens the braking distance a little when the tyres squeal under braking on level 1 - that is purely subjective though - I haven't done any 'tests'.

 

[Griffith500]

...

The ABS system is already managing the slip of individual wheels by way a proportioinal valve system, it was a natural progression to include the regular bias management in the system as well. Think about it, ABS when fully funtioning is in fact a 4 wheel independant brake bias management system.

In the game, it's even "better" than anything in real life, since it technically has zero delay in the way the ABS acts on an individual wheel. So not only does the brake bias continually shift to the optimal for the current fore / aft weight bias, it also does it on a left / right basis at a near perfect rate, completely eliminating any slip caused by braking alone.

Essentially, the ABS in GT5 has the extra "benefits" of stability control, too, which is why GT5 (and, probably, GT4) was plagued with understeer, though I never tried the ABS settings higher than 1, which it seems might restore a bit of cornering ability at the expense of stopping rate.

Regarding your concerns about chassis set up, I agree that it would be better if we could adjust the things that can be adjusted on a stock car.
The problem with modeling the electronics that control certain systems (e.g. ABS) is that you have to re-create the whole signal chain, from the physical stimuli to the response (and required delay) of the individual electronic control elements, back down to the electro-mechanical actuation used to effect changes. I don't see that being possible for the number of systems that the cars in GT5 represent. The same goes for traction and stability control.
It is clear that GT isn't meant to be a full-on simulation (like Racer, or the equivalents) but rather a compromise of driveability, practicality (of development) and realism.


As for the squealing, that's your optimal braking. The tyres grip best when they slip slightly. It's the same when cornering. What's weird is in GT5 and GT5 optimal braking is when the wheels have smoke pouring off them... Of course, the car is uncontrollable in that case, but it's still weird.

 

[shirakawaa]

Essentially, the ABS in GT5 has the extra "benefits" of stability control, too, which is why GT5 (and, probably, GT4) was plagued with understeer, though I never tried the ABS settings higher than 1, which it seems might restore a bit of cornering ability at the expense of stopping rate.

That's what the ABS driving assist description states in the game. I haven't posted the exact words, but the general operating principles.

 

[Griffith500]

That's what the ABS driving assist description states in the game. I haven't posted the exact words, but the general operating principles.

Oh, right! Thanks for clarifying 👍
I've never tried it either...

 

[RacingManiac]

Why am I seeing people in the tuning forum put more rear bias on MR cars? That isn't right, is it? I'm talking about people putting say 3FR 8R on a Gallardo for example. You never see a car with bigger rear brakes even if it has more weight in the back like most MR cars... more rear end braking makes the back want to overtake the front under heavy braking.

Yet somehow these people are finding better results doing just that?!

I am also wondering about if they are driving with pad or wheel. I always find understeer being a huge issue with pad since I tend to steer way more(and pad being pad, way faster in steer rate) than wheel. So if they find understeering being an issue, more rear brake will help pitching the car in.....

Same deal I find about people's anti-roll bar setting. You will hardly find most RWD(higher power one, especially) with higher roll bar rate at the rear. But with some cars in game though the car pushes so much that weird setup like that makes sense in game...

 

[BWX]

In real life MR and RR cars have bigger/ more powerful brakes in the rear compared to FF and FR cars because more weight is back there and the rear axle does more braking comparatively. It's all down to weight distribution.

 

[RacingManiac]

They will be relatively bigger to a car with FR or FF, but the front still does more of the braking, and likely to be bigger brake in general. Under heavy braking most of the weight transfer demands that the front does more work anyway.

 

[BWX]

right, they are bigger in front.. just rears are bigger compared to RR and MR. 5/5 default is wrong with pretty much every single car.

 

[0boz0]

Its alright people saying alter this alter that to get the balance right. But that just shows that from the off the balance on most cars stock with ABS off is wrong.

Way should I spend my time adjusting settings to stop the car spinning under braking when in most cases it shouldn't be causing it to happen in the first place.

PD need to address this themselves and spend more time tuning the cars to be behave correctly before shipping it with badly set up braking physics on most models.

 

[bodger]

Its alright people saying alter this alter that to get the balance right. But that just shows that from the off the balance on most cars stock with ABS off is wrong.

Way should I spend my time adjusting settings to stop the car spinning under braking when in most cases it shouldn't be causing it to happen in the first place.

PD need to address this themselves and spend more time tuning the cars to be behave correctly before shipping it with badly set up braking physics on most models.

Well, on the other hand, maybe that's part of the game - if you want to drive with the assists of you have got to learn how to set it up properly.

F1 2009 was like this - the default car setup was very sub-optimal - particularly the brake balance. You had to spend time on the setup to make it behave correctly.

 

[Big Ron]

Its alright people saying alter this alter that to get the balance right. But that just shows that from the off the balance on most cars stock with ABS off is wrong.

Way should I spend my time adjusting settings to stop the car spinning under braking when in most cases it shouldn't be causing it to happen in the first place.

PD need to address this themselves and spend more time tuning the cars to be behave correctly before shipping it with badly set up braking physics on most models.

Man, that isn´t any problem with the brake physics or wrong brake balances. It is a calibration problem of most wheels. When you use ABS 1, you can feel, that brake balance and physics are absolutely right. on ABS 0 the pedals submit too much brake force while tipping the brake pedal.

On Inside Simracing they noticed, that if you use the Fanatec wheels with Clubman pedals, you will not have this problem like with Logitech -wheels.

PD only need to recalibrate the brake pedals and everything is fine.

 

[carlosy]

I think this is one of the most valuable topics here on the board.

And I agree with 0boz0 that PD should set up the cars the way they are in reality (at least on a basic level). It's nice to have the option to tune and setup the cars. But I don't want to fiddle around with the setups to get the car in default state that represents the real car. That is PDs job. And it looks like the missed that, at least regarding the brakes.

 

[Bigbazz]

The cars start with 5/5 not 6/6. Also, i have a few racing cars setup 5/6 which works amazingly well, Corvette ZR-1 is a perfect example.

The problem with the brakes in the game is more down to the sensitivity of the brakes, at the slightest of touches of the brake it applies a lot of pressure, which makes it difficult to brake properly without locking up.

 

[Scaff]

In real life MR and RR cars have bigger/ more powerful brakes in the rear compared to FF and FR cars because more weight is back there and the rear axle does more braking comparatively. It's all down to weight distribution.

Sorry but that's not correct.

While static weight distribution may be toward the rear more in RR and MR it does not stay that way when you hit the brakes.

Weight transfer will alway dictate a transfer of weight forwards, and while the 911 has often (model dependent) run equal size rotors front and rear, the same is not true of most MR cars.

Even with equal size rotor you may still not have equal brake force sent to the front and back, as the brake bias set on the car will almost always be towards the front.

More brake force to the rear of a car is a recipe for disaster, get the backs locking up first and you have a car that will be facing the wrong way rather quickly.

So while the balance will be different in RR and MR cars, the front will still be doing more work than the front.


Regards

Scaff

 

[shirakawaa]

I think this is one of the most valuable topics here on the board.

And I agree with 0boz0 that PD should set up the cars the way they are in reality (at least on a basic level). It's nice to have the option to tune and setup the cars. But I don't want to fiddle around with the setups to get the car in default state that represents the real car. That is PDs job. And it looks like the missed that, at least regarding the brakes.

Wheel alignment is messed up too on most (if not all) cars in the game, in which they have got no or very minimal camber (in the case of race cars), and every single one of them has got 0.2 degrees of rear toe in, 0 degrees of front toe. Off-topic argument here probably, but I think it's worth to bring public attention to that issue, which isn't much dissimilar than the messed up brake distribution and other related issues (among which the lack of fade simulation).