American Muscle (Week 3): Laguna Seca (w / Results)

  • Thread starter Thread starter Kolyana
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:lol:
 
Wait Jet...what happened to the GTO u decided on the 440 eh? See now THAT is tempting ot strap into the same car with ya as it was my alternate initially...hhhmmm....I dunno tho this Vette is just so nice and YELLOW! Yeah thats right Bbinnell, Yellow is always faster than Red....punk!...LOL. Yo Bbinnell we need to get together and race man, its been TOO LONG!!!! And u too Nat! I'm itching and Nov is too long to wait to go to Bobkarts....ugh...


Jerome
 
Yeah, we do need to get together again :)
 
Hyperdrive ENGAGED!

Shelby Mustang GT350R

T1: 24.139
T2: 47.173
T3: 1'11.371

Not as fast as many of you folks but I beat my Vette time -- I ran 10 laps in the Vette...realized I had the TCS on for b-spec dude...turned TCs off and had a T3 of 1'11.062 in 5 laps. But the Shelby beat the Vette to the line by 0.127s. I know the Vette has a little more in it...the Shelby doesn't. I'm done for the week and will be submitting my time and settings to Koly.

I had enough money left over for a set of fuzzy dice for the rear view mirror and a hula girl bobble in the rear window 👍 the hell with the dead hookers....I bet the hot sun at Laguna makes 'em smell stink pretty bad anyway :yuck:
 
Jetboys427
Actually i was hoping she would run a "Muscle:Unlimited Series" with a stock Buick Special, fully tuned versions of all cars, and the Shelby Cobra with a FC Tranny. I think it would be a little better, as there are not too many American vehicles in the same niche...

Good Idea. I would have liked to see how the Buick and Shelby(read AC) Cobra compares to the cars here.

Physics
Hey Kolyana have you ever considered doing something like this again, but with the more recent American cars?

I actually talked to Koly and she was kind enough to let me "borrow" the AMCs budgeting format, and I'm *still* testing(about 15 cars right now, work is getting in the way of this thing even getting off the ground), but when most of it's setup, it should be close to the AMC but with different cars(obviously). My only clue I'm giving: Lightweight two seaters 👍
 
Darkwind,

For my $.02

$.01 - I'd like to see if a real life series' rules could be used. There of course are a wide variety but some that I think might be applicable: Setting a minimum weight and weight : power ratio. One series uses 2,800pounds, 9.5:1 ratio. Real life rules don't set a maximum HP but I think you would need to to keep things balanced. GT4 touts itself as a driving simulator. I think we should try something true to life....if there's enough interest.

$.01 - I'd like to race in a mode / format where in addition to on-line competition with each other there are also other cars on the track - that really adds an exciting dimension to things. Tire wear should also be a factor. It's tough to figure out how to do this. Arcade allow garage cars (no mods), Family Cup races are only 2 laps long, most of the existing GT mode championships don't offer the right competition.

So just as important to me as the cars you drive is how realistic things are....lap after lap after lap really helps you learn the track and the car but only within a narrow window of reality. Try time trialing a track for practice...and then put other cars out there and factor in a little tire wear....it's a completely different experience. You only get about 3 - 4 laps where the tires are equivalent to the time trial practice. If the difficulty is proper the AI drivers mix things up a bit too. You have to learn patience and where to pass. Overall I expect your best "in race" lap is going to be much slower than the time trial laps.

Anyway....just some thoughts. Even though this has been long winded enough I could write more. I've been working on regulations for a race series too. If you want any additional input or need any help with yours let me know.

Ronny
 
*nods in interest.* I really think maybe a project thread should be created, maybe as a discussion place other than here. I really like the ideas. 👍
 
A discussion thread is a good idea ... darkwind, perhaps you'll do the honors?
 
darkwind
My only clue I'm giving: Lightweight two seaters 👍

Damn you! You stole my idea for a Midget II series!

I'll have to go back to creating my Daihatsu Copen series....

Ohhh...That give me a thought, now I've just looked through, and there has never been a single car series. Now single car/make series are the closest in the world. But at the end of everyweek, you could give HP or less wieght to the people who arn't quite as fast as the top of the field, then when you're nearing the end of the series theoretically everybody should have the same lap times. 👍
 
Koly, do you want me to head up that Project thread?
 
Well, I was going to leave it to Dark, because he said that he wanted to run such a series.
 
Okay, just asking. 👍
 
I've ditched the Chevelle because I couldn't keep up with the leaders :grumpy:

So here are my splits in my new car

T1 23.453

T2 45.735

T3 1'09.624

I'm coming after ya Jerome :trouble:
 
bhawk776
I've ditched the Chevelle because I couldn't keep up with the leaders :grumpy: So here are my splits in my new car
So what's your new car?
 
Casio
Damn you! You stole my idea for a Midget II series!

I'll have to go back to creating my Daihatsu Copen series....

Um, no, not Midget IIs.... Actually it ranges from cars that weigh 650kg to 1100kg, and are two seaters ^_^ :lol: I'm almost done doing prelim testing and I'll trim the field again(I'm aiming for only 10-12 right now and it started with almost 35 :scared: !)

As for a project thread, I can't start one right now for my series unless you just want a blank space, I'm at school and won't be home til 3pm eastern time to get my data, not that theres much :crazy: .
 
darkwind
Actually it ranges from cars that weigh 650kg to 1100kg, and are two seaters
Caterham? 👍 👍 👍

I was able to motor that thing around Suzuka almost as fast as the Arta NSX. Of course the NSX was stock and the Caterham was fully tricked out......at the Nurb I actually had to add weight because it bounced around so bad. Like drivin' jet powered feather :scared:. But all this belongs somewhere else.
 
bhawk776
I've ditched the Chevelle because I couldn't keep up with the leaders :grumpy:

So here are my splits in my new car

T1 23.453

T2 45.735

T3 1'09.624

I'm coming after ya Jerome :trouble:

I was waiting for u to switch, NOW I'll get back in my Vette and put in more than 2 hours time.....I'l see ya at the finish line harwk GL to ya, and which car did u switch to? Tell me u picked the 69 Vette...that would be cool for sure! 👍

jump_ace
 
:lol: j/k I'm still in the Chevelle

<
<
<
 
Haven't run for the past couple of days, but I'm going to hit it tonight and tomorrow pretty hard, to see if I can get this darn time down :p

Leaderboard updated ... Chevelle breathing down the Stingrays neck.
 
Update:
T1: 23.462
T2: 45.836
T3: 1'09.231

I found out how to motor this bad boy around.... :trouble:
 
Ahh crap I really have my hands full now with BOTH of you chasing me PLUS kennythebomb.....WOW waht a rush! Not very often I'm in the lead here. GL you guys, I"m gonna try and find a nother .2 in my T3 B4 Sunday HOPEFULLY...*GULP*

jump_ace
 
Isn't this series great? :lol:
 
Ahh hell yes it is, and I'll probably get into the muscle unlimited..whoever starts that one count me in! And heck I thought I was just gonna finish the BC5 and this series and be done for a while...nope! Now I'll have a chance to get into a SWEET AC Cars Shelby!

jump_ace
 
I've done a shedload of testing for the AMC: Unlimited Class... You want my results?
 
I'd like to see your results Jetboys :D
 
Okay. Will do in a few. :D
 
Well, I have conducted some light-duty testing of some of the vehicles using B-spec on Pace 3 at Seoul Original Course. Results varied by only two seconds with the C3 (!) being one of the most languid players, slower by only 2 seconds. Now, do keep in mind that none of these have an exhaust set-up. At all. Who wants to ruin the wonderful V8 sound? Also all cars, the Buick and Shelby included, have Racing Hard Tires.

Now, these are not in any specific order, but the
fastest/best value and slowest/worst value are bolded out.

Dodge Charger R/T
696 hp/ 812 lb ft.
NA3
T1:
22.381.
T2: 39.847
T3: 59.347

Pontiac GTO
556hp/ 810 lb ft
Supercharged
T1: 23.263
T2: 40.656
T3: 1'00.624

Buick Special
608hp/ 604 lbft (The power figures may be off... Mine has 2830 miles.:D)
Stock
T1:
23.498
T2: 39.846 (Note that it's .001 ahead of the Charger.)
T3: 59.029

Shelby Cobra 427
516 hp/ 504 lbft
Stock
T1: 23.064
T2: 40.171
T3: 59.835

Corvette Stingray 350 C3
525hp/ [forgot to jot down torque figures.]
Supercharger
T1: 23.475
T2:
40.848
T3:
1'00.917
Note: for the Vette, switching to NA3 would be a good idea, as it adds about 25 hp.

Chevelle 454 LS6
740 hp/ 755 lbft
NA3
T1: 22.750
T2:
39.508
T3:
58.970

Plymouth Superbird
705hp/741 lbft
NA3
T1: 22.774
T2: 39.698
T3: 59.337

Dodge Charger Superbee
700hp/
826 lbft
Supercharger
T1: 23.096
T2: 40.226
T3: 59.909

Shelby GT350R
509hp/ 504 lbft
NA3
T1: 23.181
T2: 40.549
T3: 1’00.510

Camaro SS 350
500hp/ 579 lbft
NA3
T1: 23.574
T2: 41.067
T3: 1’01.261

The Buick had one of the slowest T1’s! For the car that defines the class, I found that to be odd, but if you notice, it really catches up. I'm doing some more testing, but I'm figuring on leaving out the 302 Camaro and the Cougar, as they prolly won't fare as well. Same with the Cuda, it has enough problems trying to keep up as it is. And maybe supercharging the Chevelle to limit power might be a good idea; it is dreadfully fast. My personal taste resides with the Supercharged GTO... It's my Buick killer on the game, both against the AI and my sucker buddies. *snicker* The Charger R/T....wow. Just hook up and *ZOOM*. Gone. The Chevelle is a double threat in handling and top-end.

I'd like to conduct some more testing, but after you read this and respond. That would be greatly appreciated! 👍

Following the orginal formula, yes, it is still in Simulation mode. Cash is unlimited, but you cannot purchase

1. Any tires softer than R2's
2. Any exhaust package
3. Of course, no Nitrous

Special Conditions:

The Buick can only have acceleration parts (clutch, flywhl, d-shaft) and a Racing Suspention upgrade.

The Shelby/AC follows suit with the Buick, except a Fully customizable tranny is allowed.

The field, as you can see from testing, is actually very even. Only the Camaro comes off as a little slow, with only 500 hp on the NA3 setup.

I might conduct some more testing at a different venue, say, the Nur, if you want me to continue. Also, if you want tme to forward the results to anyone else that is interested (goixoye and jump_ace most likely) I will.


Jetboy

 
goixoye
Darkwind,

For my $.02

$.01 - I'd like to see if a real life series' rules could be used. There of course are a wide variety but some that I think might be applicable: Setting a minimum weight and weight : power ratio. One series uses 2,800pounds, 9.5:1 ratio. Real life rules don't set a maximum HP but I think you would need to to keep things balanced. GT4 touts itself as a driving simulator. I think we should try something true to life....if there's enough interest.

$.01 - I'd like to race in a mode / format where in addition to on-line competition with each other there are also other cars on the track - that really adds an exciting dimension to things. Tire wear should also be a factor. It's tough to figure out how to do this. Arcade allow garage cars (no mods), Family Cup races are only 2 laps long, most of the existing GT mode championships don't offer the right competition.

So just as important to me as the cars you drive is how realistic things are....lap after lap after lap really helps you learn the track and the car but only within a narrow window of reality. Try time trialing a track for practice...and then put other cars out there and factor in a little tire wear....it's a completely different experience. You only get about 3 - 4 laps where the tires are equivalent to the time trial practice. If the difficulty is proper the AI drivers mix things up a bit too. You have to learn patience and where to pass. Overall I expect your best "in race" lap is going to be much slower than the time trial laps.

Anyway....just some thoughts. Even though this has been long winded enough I could write more. I've been working on regulations for a race series too. If you want any additional input or need any help with yours let me know.

Ronny
I think the above comments are applicable. My first one obviously will not apply to this series.

I do have some questions / comments relative to your testing.
-What is your b-spec rating?
-Did you test with TCS/ASM on?
-Did you watch the testing for wall touches etc? Were the cars driven similarly by the b-spec guy?

b-spec testing....I b-speced some testing between the 69 Vette and Shelby Mustang when I was lobbying for more $ for the Shelby. My b-spec guy has 9200 points but is still a dufus...maybe I'll call him Bocephus. At Infineon-Sp he was fine in the Vette but in the Mustang has ALWAYS went off track in the long sweeping turn. I think this was likely relative to the Shelby's tendency for wheel spin. I had TCS/ASM set at original levels (5/10/10)....maybe TCS should have been higher? Of course the "off track" excursions gave me the results I wanted but really weren't admissible in my effort to try and convince Koly so I abandonded b-spec and used a-spec results -- I thought b-spec would provide "impartial" results but didn't really seem to.

Your results that the highest HP car had the fastest times while the lowest HP had the slowest times doesn't surprise me. It seems that cars need to have equivalent HP & weight to be equal. I haven't done enough testing to say that this is a certainty but my results so far are leaning that way....I am certain that only equivalent weight to HP ratio is not enough.

The testing that I did included GT and Arcade modes. When I balanced the cars to the exact power / weight the Vette was always better. Bumping the Shelby up seemed to put the car's power beyond the chassis capabilities. Lowering the Vette's power seemed to have an opposite effect....the chassis had more than plenty of handling capability for the reduced power. It is soooo tough to try to equalize cars....I haven't figured out an absolute, I doubt one exists.

You haven't mentioned all the cars for the field. I would like to see some of the more current "muscle" cars....Buick GNX and Mustang SVT as well as some of the more modern Camaros & Vettes...maybe the IROC Camaro too. From your tested cars I would choose the Shelby Mustang....if you allowed the SVT that would probably be my choice.

The race format....for me anyway...is crucial. See my thoughts from above. I was looking at lower HP levels. With the higher HP's you're working with there may be more existing GT races that would allow "on track" competition as well as "on-line". I would also somehow limit the amount of time spent on the competition....If you go with a race format vs. time trial style may allow just one run or maybe two (one practice and one for real). If it's time trial maybe set a fair limit on number of laps. In the real world there is no 2nd chance. Most (if not all) of the drivers who beat me in these competitions are actually better than I am. But the competition shouldn't be unfairly skewed towards those who have more time to put into these events. So I vote you make the events "short and sweet".

I could ramble endlessly but I'm getting hungry and so is the dog.....
 
goixoye
I think the above comments are applicable. My first one obviously will not apply to this series.

I do have some questions / comments relative to your testing.
-What is your b-spec rating?
-Did you test with TCS/ASM on?
-Did you watch the testing for wall touches etc? Were the cars driven similarly by the b-spec guy?


Your results that the highest HP car had the fastest times while the lowest HP </SPAN>had the slowest times doesn't surprise me. It seems that cars need to have equivalent HP & weight to be equal. I haven't done enough testing to say that this is a certainty but my results so far are leaning that way....I am certain that only equivalent weight to HP ratio is not enough.

You haven't mentioned all the cars for the field. I would like to see some of the more current "muscle" cars....Buick GNX and Mustang SVT as well as some of the more modern Camaros & Vettes...maybe the IROC Camaro too. From your tested cars I would choose the Shelby Mustang....if you allowed the SVT that would probably be my choice.

The race format....for me anyway...is crucial. See my thoughts from above. I was looking at lower HP levels. With the higher HP's you're working with there may be more existing GT races that would allow "on track" competition as well as "on-line". I would also somehow limit the amount of time spent on the competition....If you go with a race format vs. time trial style may allow just one run or maybe two (one practice and one for real). If it's time trial maybe set a fair limit on number of laps. In the real world there is no 2nd chance. Most (if not all) of the drivers who beat me in these competitions are actually better than I am. But the competition shouldn't be unfairly skewed towards those who have more time to put into these events. So I vote you make the events "short and sweet".

I could ramble endlessly but I'm getting hungry and so is the dog.....

Hey, thanks for responding. 👍

1. B-spec rating is 8040
2. TCS was used, with the car's correct settings (like the harger had TCS 6, but the Chevelle had only 4.) ASM was not.
3. I watched Blasphemous Bob mess up in the same exact spot, the same exact way, every time.

To fix the time discrepencies, I'm changing the tire compounds for various vehicles.

The Camaro is allowed to use R5's
The GTO now is alloted R4's
The Corvette can be had with R4's
The Superbird can have R3's
And the GT350R can have R5's
Everything else is still R2's

I may re-test at Seoul with the new settings or go to a completely different venue all together.

With these settings, the vehicles ran within about .6 of each other. Very close, nice and easy driving. I even took all of the cars for a go on Trial Mountain Reverse and recieved very close times. I may consider having weight added through ballast to help slow down extremely dominant vehicles. Say the Chevelle has to hide away now 140 kgs. One problem with that, though, is that we all use at least some ballast in our cars... So the penalty factor can be dismissed... :thoughtful:

Regarding letting in new cars (SVT Mustang, IROC-Z, The GNX, et. al) I suppose could be let in... It would be interesting. Olde-school GTO versus the new-skin model? I think, though, that the GNX would be a lagger.

Some changes to what I have stated in the above Project post:

The Chevrolet Corvette was changed to a NA3 setup/ spoiler added.
The GTO was also converted to NA3
The Charger R/T now has a spoiler.



Anyone else care to comment on this?
 
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