American vs. Euro/Japanese cars - from GT4 board

[vectradriver]

Don't even start with the 'everyone hates America' stuff. American Television is some of the most watched on British TV. They have huge budgets and it is easy to accept that Soprano's is one of the best series ever made. I accept that. I am being blamed for European bias, but this being an American website, don't you think I'm battling against American bias. Considering what I am saying is cold hard fact, you are all having a hard time coming to terms with it.

OK this is a list of some of the best handling European cars. See if you can actually make a real competitor for them (ie one that is higher rated than the European car)

VW Golf V GTI
Lotus Elise (any model)
BMW M3
BMW M5
Renault Clio Trophy
Porsche 911 GT3
Ford Focus RS
Ford Focus ST (the new model)
BMW M Coupe (original model)
Ford Mondeo (any model, it doesn't matter)

You wont be able to find one.

Now you may think that British magazines are biased, but Britain no longer has its own mainstream manufacturer. We love the M3, but Germany is an old enemy of our country. It isn't EU bias, it is an understanding of who makes the best Cars. Period.

 

[Duke]

If you can't accept at face value that America doesn't make as many great cars as Europe, then sorry, but it is objective truth. Quality is lower, chassis design is cruder and design budgets are much lower.

Nope, I'm just not buying this flat assertion that American car design and quality is simply lower. It's far from "objective truth". Europe has more exotic car makers; this much is true. There is no American Lamborghini, I'll grant you. That doesn't mean that American cars are simply inferior to European and Japanese cars. It just means that no American car company is fighting in that arena.

For the majority of the automotive spectrum, from economy commuters through moderately-priced sports cars and sedans/saloons/MPVs, American cars are equal to most or better than many of their European counterparts. There's just no way you can flatly state this is not true. Put a run-of-the-mill Renault up against a run-of-the-mill Chevrolet (and I'm no Chevy fan) and prove to me that the American product is "completely lacking" in capability, comfort, or options.

For 'real' car fans, a lot of you have very poor understanding of the Global car market and how it is perceived.

On the contrary, we have an excellent idea of how the global car market is perceived. What we're taking exeption to is that perception, which we find to be flawed.

As one of the most influential magazines in the business, they have a road-test of every European car and every significant American car too that has made it to these shores. Considering Britain only gets the top American cars, is it a surprise when these cars consistently come out worse than their European opposition? I mean that is the best cars America has to offer.

This is your mistaken premise.

 

[Tornado]

VW Golf V GTI

Chevrolet Cobalt SS S/C
Dodge Caliber SRT-4
Dodge Neon SRT-4
Honda Civic Si
Acura RSX Type S
(We have multiple ways of doing this. The American companies cars win in power. The Acura wins in everything else)

Lotus Elise (any model)

Opel Speedster
Tommy kiara ZZ-S
ASL Garaiya
Renault Clio Sport V6
(America hasn't put out a car like this in 30 years)

BMW M3

Cadillac CTS-v
Audi RS4
Audi S4
(Not that easy, but still done)

BMW M5

BMW M5 E46
Cadillac STS-v
Audi RS6
Dodge Magnum SRT-8
Jaguar S Type-R
(The current M5 is thought of by somee to be a step back from the E46 version, so this was rather easy)

Renault Clio Trophy

Lotus Elise
Opel Speedster
Tommy kiara ZZ-S
ASL Garaiya
(since no American company has built a car like these in 30 years, it's negligable)

Porsche 911 GT3

Chevrolet Corvette Z06
Chevrolet Corvette Z06 C5
Honda NSX-R
Lotus Esprit Sport 350
(Pretty Easy)

Ford Focus RS

Dodge Neon SRT-4
Chevrolet Cobalt SS S/C
(There you go)

Ford Focus ST (the new model)

Mazda 3
Volvo C30
VW Golf/Rabbit V
(The Ford Focus ST is sold in the U.S. under the Mazda 3 and Volvo C30 names, and Ford is an American company.)

BMW M Coupe (original model)

Chevrolet Camaro Z/28
Pontiac Firebird Trans Am
Ford Mustang SVT Cobra
(Too Easy)

Ford Mondeo (any model, it doesn't matter)

Ford Taurus SHO
Ford Fusion
Ford Five Hundred
(The Mondeo was never really anything more than a typical Ford sedan. As such it really is no better than any of the American Ford sedans).

 

[YSSMAN]

OK this is a list of some of the best handling European cars. See if you can actually make a real competitor for them (ie one that is higher rated than the European car)

VW Golf V GTI
Lotus Elise (any model)
BMW M3
BMW M5
Renault Clio Trophy
Porsche 911 GT3
Ford Focus RS
Ford Focus ST (the new model)
BMW M Coupe (original model)
Ford Mondeo (any model, it doesn't matter)

You wont be able to find one.

Sure I can:

- GTI? Chevrolet Cobalt SS, Saturn Ion Redline, Dodge Neon SRT-4
- Elise? Superformance Shelby Cobra Replica
- M3? CTS-V, GTO, Corvette
- M5? STS-V, Charger SRT-8, Chrysler 300 SRT-8
- Clio Trophy? See Sport Compacts Above
- 911 GT3? Corvette Z06, Viper SRT-10 Coupe
- Focus RS and ST? See Sport Compacts Above
- BMW M-Coupe? Mustang SVT Cobra (the old IRS model)
- Mondeo? Ford Fusion, Pontiac G6 GTP

It isn't EU bias, it is an understanding of who makes the best Cars. Period.

No, it is clearly bias. In America, we give everyone a fair chance, and that means American, German, British, Japanese, French, Korean, Australian, etc. cars win and loose all the time.

I really don't care if you don't care much for American cars, but you could atleast be more educated about them, and not be such an ass about things.

 

[Tornado]

- GTI? Chevrolet Cobalt SS, Saturn Ion Redline, Dodge Neon SRT-4
- Elise? Superformance Shelby Cobra Replica
- M3? CTS-V, GTO, Corvette
- M5? STS-V, Charger SRT-8, Chrysler 300 SRT-8
- Clio Trophy? See Sport Compacts Above
- 911 GT3? Corvette Z06, Viper SRT-10 Coupe
- Focus RS and ST? See Sport Compacts Above
- BMW M-Coupe? Mustang SVT Cobra (the old IRS model)
- Mondeo? Ford Fusion, Pontiac G6 GTP

What I highlighted is what I have trouble with. The GTO weighs too much and is too old to compete with the M3 effectively. And the Clio Renault Trophy is an MR sports car. Not the Clio 182

 

[vectradriver]

No it isn't MR. Thats The V6 Trophy Race car. I mean the 182 Trophy, made specifically for the UK market. And a lot of you say I need to read more? The G6 is based on my Vectra, therefore an inferior drive than Mondeo. Besides I said cars that are rated higher in magazine reports. Not one car you have mentioned would rate higher than the ones I posted in any European car magazine, irrespective of Country.

Hoho, the Mondeo was never anything more special than a Ford Saloon. It is one of the best driving family cars (in the typical mode) ever made. As for the new M5 being a step back, it narrowly lost to a Ferrari F430 in Autocar's comparison. You need to become more educated by reading the European motoring press, then you'd realise the short-comings of your own cars.

 

[Dave A]

Yep the M5 has too much electronic fluff to setup, but it handles superbly. The Mondeo IS the best handling car in it's class. While I don't dissagree that in terms of magazine rating and personal experience, from what I have been able to see compared and to compare myself the European cars are generally better, we do NOT get Americans best and highest specced models, and I do think that while some of what your saying is true with regards to what WE get, your going about getting your message across in the wrong way.

 

[Poverty]

Man, I just dont understand why europeans are all obsessed over their precious M3, It's not all that great in everything, it jut happens to handle great. It doesn't complete the trifecta of everything, that hanour goes to the Corvette, Handeling, Power, and Looks. Belive me, I am not biased against amercian cars, I really do not lke them. But you have to admit when you've been beaten.

you started off good arguing against his bias but then you own bias took over.

Yep the M5 has too much electronic fluff to setup,

After it has been setup, you can save your preferences and bring it back at the push of one button, located on the steering wheel.

And Last I knew the M5 was $80,000. Im not gonna join this euro vs the world though, even though I could make a better argument than vectra. (in regards of the cars he has chosen to represent the EU.)

 

[Famine]

No it isn't MR. Thats The V6 Trophy Race car. I mean the 182 Trophy, made specifically for the UK market. And a lot of you say I need to read more?

That'll be the Clio Cup then - the lightweight, despecced version of the 172/182. Unless you actually mean the Clio 182 Trophy (production run of 500) which was made for the UK AND French markets?

Edit: No - UK and Swiss markets. Who'd have thought it, eh? The SWISS being a target market for a quickish car...

 

[Poverty]

That'll be the Clio Cup then - the lightweight, despecced version of the 172/182.

Or the polo gti cup that us brits will sadly not get.

 

[Tornado]

Hoho, the Mondeo was never anything more special than a Ford Saloon. It is one of the best driving family cars (in the typical mode) ever made.

Because everyone knows that in order for a sedan to be great it needs to pull serious lateral G's. Come off it. The Mondeo is no better than the Ford Fusion, or one of the Tauri SHO's. The fact that Ford is in itself an American company nullifies your point as it is.

As for the new M5 being a step back, it narrowly lost to a Ferrari F430 in Autocar's comparison. You need to become more educated by reading the European motoring press, then you'd realise the short-comings of your own cars.

I need to become more educated? We make the BMW M5? What? Anyways, I never said the E90 M5 was slower than the E46, did I? I said that many look at it as a step back from the sheer excellence that is the E46 (which it is). And besides, it was possible by simply changing the exhaust and intake on the E46 to get just as much power as the E90, as evidenced by the Dinan M5, in a far nicer looking and more driver oriented package.

 

[Master_Yoda]

Yep all American cars suck and now lets all bow to the mighty M3. Of course I am being sarcastic. I'm sick of all these bias haters going around claiming to be car guys. We (America) should have conquered the world when we had the chance after WWII. Then we wouldn't have to deal with people like this because we would all be Americans.

And there it is... The damn i'm from Texas i can take over the world 3rd grade attitude. Thats why alot of the world really looks down at some of us americans, just for the few that think they own all. The few that can't work with another person, but only themselfs. Do you know what would happen if the US would try and take over the world after WWII? We would be squashed by ants. It wouldn't be possible for the U.S. to take over the world. I mean were haveing trouble sorting out the middle east, then China with about a ten times bigger army would just flood are country like Katrina did to the New Orleans. Trust me, American would need help from all of are allies, even then we might not win.

If you love Euro cars so much then go buy them, just don't go pushing your BS opinions off on the rest of the world. No one cares about your opinion because it's horribly biased. Now if you would have come here with a reasonable discussion and not just idiotic statements that mean nothing this might have been an interesting little topic.

Weren't you done with this forum? Why are you still here?

Hmmm... This is very very amusing, i see, he is the one with the idiotic statements? O ok i see, yep. And American cars are the best EVA!!!! That must be why they sell so great compared to foreigns cars such as BMW, Mercedes, Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Porsche etc...

Don't you just love the smell or sarcasm in the morning? o wait it's 5PM...

 

[JCE]

Because everyone knows that in order for a sedan to be great it needs to pull serious lateral G's. Come off it. The Mondeo is no better than the Ford Fusion, or one of the Tauri SHO's. The fact that Ford is in itself an American company nullifies your point as it is.

Ladies and gentlemen the part in the bold from the quoted text above is brilliant. I don't think many (if any) Europeans even knows that this car exsists...and the car I'm referring is the Taurus SHO. In 1993 for example it had a 3.2L Yamaha V6 it was quite fast, it kept up with (and sometimes beat) some of Europe's finest. With 220bhp and 200lb.ft. of torque...IN 1993 FOR CHRIST SAKES...made it quite the performance saloon for the USA. The 1993 BMW 318i for comparison only had 189bhp and 181lb.ft. of torque. Plus it being a Taurus it was bulletproof. 2 members of my family and about 3 friends of mine have owned(own) them and they can take a beating and still run. And the Fusion I'd argue looks just as good as the current Mondeo. The Mondeo ST220 (the sport spec model) looks just as good as the Ford Fusion SEL V6.

1993 Taurus SHO:

Just look at this pretty green:

 

[Master_Yoda]

The old Taurus's are fantastic cars, and they make for a amazing sleeper. But the new Taurus's are like my least favorite cars.

 

[IMADreamer]

And there it is... The damn i'm from Texas i can take over the world 3rd grade attitude. Thats why alot of the world really looks down at some of us americans, just for the few that think they own all. The few that can't work with another person, but only themselfs. Do you know what would happen if the US would try and take over the world after WWII? We would be squashed by ants. It wouldn't be possible for the U.S. to take over the world. I mean were haveing trouble sorting out the middle east, then China with about a ten times bigger army would just flood are country like Katrina did to the New Orleans. Trust me, American would need help from all of are allies, even then we might not win.


Hmmm... This is very very amusing, i see, he is the one with the idiotic statements? O ok i see, yep. And American cars are the best EVA!!!! That must be why they sell so great compared to foreigns cars such as BMW, Mercedes, Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Porsche etc...

Don't you just love the smell or sarcasm in the morning? o wait it's 5PM...

You have no damn clue what joking around is do you? Anyway, don't you usually reserve your post for Japanese car threads? That's where you really shine.

As for people here being American bias, I disagree. I think there is a fantastic group of car guys here and I am here because I can learn so much from those guys. I love the engine discussion threads, the best car from a certain country threads and so on. Because all that stupid bias stuff goes out the window and the real info comes out. It's great. If anything I would say there is a slight Japanese bias here, but certainly no American bias even though there are many American members.

I admit that my knowledge out side of American cars is pretty limited. I am up on my sport compacts because all my friends back in college were big into that scene, and I am up on Mercedes and Ferrari. Other then that my knowledge is lacking. I'm learning everyday here though. However it's people like you( the threadstarter), and Master Yoda (who just likes to agitate me) who teach me nothing. Your opinions are too slanted and your pushing an agenda as opposed to guys like Toronado, YSSMAN, to name just a few that actual contribute information to the discussion and help educate the community.

I admit my first post was very immature because I was being flippant. It was clear from post one of this thread that nothing good would come of it. Nothing has really. It's just the same American hating crap. The guys arguing for the American companies can type until their fingers are worn to the bone and it won't do good because you can't change fanboys minds.

It's too bad some of you guys can't wake up, we really do have some fantastic cars here in the states.

 

[Master_Yoda]

I said nothing really of BIAs. I live in the states. Infact, I live in a place were muscle cars are like god. I'm not BIAsed at all. I love Euro/Japanese cars because there not so just about raw muscle. Infact, i love a good 66' Mustang with basically alsmot stock engine, new suspension and brake. There fantastic. But sorry, but theres no life rule that you have to love all cars. I'm not very interested in what american cars are all about, but i will respect them for what they can do. I'm not about stock numbers, i love the though of custimization. It's why i love Japanese cars. Thats what there for, custimizing it any damn way you want.

Sure the Z06 is a amazing car that really changed the view of a muscle car. I know that it can corner amazing, but so can my favorite cars. And easly just as well if not better. I'm not talking about a fricking GTR, i'm talking about the Honda S2000, and Lotus Exige. I love them, there brilliant cars. The Honda is enviroment friendly, very reliable, faster and more powerful then the Porsche Boxster, and handles like a train on tracks. And the Exige, probally one of the best handling cars in the world, if not the best. Thats what i like in cars. Thats why i respect alot of the new Muscle cars, but does it mean i HAVE to like them? NO! I really hate the look of the Vette. Those front clear lights look really fugly to me. But i will still respect it. But i think people go a little hung over all the stock stuff. To me, that shows that the owner of the car has done nothing to make what it is. Modding, what really (to me) makes a great a great car. And you can take the credit, unless someone elese did it. But i smell dinner so i think i'm go eat now.

 

[McLaren]

Have you noticed that the 5-Series costs over $100,000 USD?? I know only a few people that can afford that.

Then, you're getting ripped off because even a fully loaded E60 M5 won't break the $100,000 barrier in the US.
EDIT* Sorry for OT.

 

[Wolfe]

It's embarrassing to be a hardcore Euro-car fan and see people like vectradriver running around spouting dribble like "nothing can compare to European cars" and "I don't know why america even bothers making cars." I don't care who you are, the only person who can get away with that kind of arrogant hyperbole is Jeremy Clarkson (who actually recently said something along the lines of those two quotes ).

I really, really dislike american cars, and would never buy one, but that doesn't mean they're useless when it comes to making cars. Useless when it comes to making engines that can take advantage of the displacement they have, maybe, but not with cars.

Most of the roads over here are long and straight. Most people think of cars as appliances, and treat them like appliances too, so when basic maintenance isn't taken care of and things break, most people won't want to spend much money on fixing/replacing everything. That's why technology and sophistication is relatively lacking -- it's cheaper that way.

With those things in mind, it makes sense that people want boring pieces of crap like the Ford FiveHundred. It satisfies most people's needs and doesn't go out of its way to do anything else. Does that make it a terrible car compared to the likes of the Mondeo, 5-series, Passat, etc., which all handle better, have better engines, are more fun to drive, have nicer interiors, and are generally more exciting to look at? It depends on what you're looking for in a car.

And that's really what this whole thread comes down to -- what different people look for in a car. The only way we could legitimately argue the merits of american cars vs. the world would be to set up some parameters...."the best sports sedans," "the best sportscars," "the most efficient cars," etc..."best cars overall" is too broad.

 

[YSSMAN]

Master_Yoda, you are just as bad as Vectradriver...

The G6 is based on my Vectra, therefore an inferior drive than Mondeo.

Yes, the G6 GTP shares the Epsilon platform with the Vectra, but that doesn't matter. The car posts pretty good times with 0-60 in 6.2 seconds, 0-100 in 16.2, 1/4 mile in 19.9 and 18/29 with the fuel. It also handels quite well, pulling 0.85g on the skidpad and doing 63.5 through the lane-change. It's only a few ticks behind the VW GLI, and I call that pretty damn good for a car using a OHV V6 (soon to be replaced by a DOHC unit).

...As for the Cobalt SS and SRT-4 vs the Clio:

Cobalt SS:
-0-60 in 6.1, 0-100 in 15.3, 1/4 mile in 14.6, top speed of 141. Pulls 0.86 on the skidpad and does the lane change in 64.8 MPH.

SRT-4:
-0-60 in 5.6, 0-100 in 14.5, 1/4 mile in 14.3, top speed of 150. Pulls 0.86 on the skidpad and does 64.8 through the lane change.

Want another big sedan to womp on the Mondeo ST? How about the Pontiac Grand Prix GXP? With it's 303 BHP V8, she will do 0-60 in 5.7 seconds, 0-100 in 14.8, run the quarter in 14.3, and top out at 143 MPH (it's Chevrolet counterpart can run north of 150 MPH). With slightly moderate understeer (as can be expected with a FWD car), she pulls 0.82 on the skidpad.

Besides I said cars that are rated higher in magazine reports. Not one car you have mentioned would rate higher than the ones I posted in any European car magazine, irrespective of Country.

Come to America, where people seem to have this stange ability to actually drive cars correctly, and I can guarantee that all of the numbers for the cars either Tornado or I posted would be on-par or better than ones you suggest. Car and Driver is undoubtedly the king when it comes to road-tests, and they are the final word when it comes to almost everything here in America.

You need to become more educated by reading the European motoring press, then you'd realise the short-comings of your own cars.

And I think you need to read a few American publications that aren't automatically biased against our cars to begin with. I would dare to say that American automotive magazines are the least biased magazines to begin with, given that they frequently kiss BMW's ass over the 3-series, and the Honda Accord almost always gets nothing but praise.

We are well aware of the shortcommings of our cars, why wouldn't we be? They are often the reasons why our cars don't win comparison tests, but often get recomendations by the editors of the magazines based on performance and value combined. Is that a problem? I think not...

BTW: I read CAR magazine fairly often, and I have been able to flip through the pages of Top Gear a time or two as well. Yeah, they are good magazines, but when it comes to American cars, it is plainly obvious they have no idea what they are talking about...

 

[Master_Yoda]

Master_Yoda, you are just as bad as Vectradriver...

Excuse me? Did you not read what i just said?

EDIT: What ever i'm done with you. I don't even want to get it into it with you. You obiously don't know me as a person, nor Vectradriver, so i don't want to hear none of your girlish bitching.

 

[IMADreamer]

Excuse me? Did you not read what i just said?

EDIT: What ever i'm done with you. I don't even want to get it into it with you. You obiously don't know me as a person, nor Vectradriver, so i don't want to hear none of your girlish bitching.

I thnk he may be hinting at the fact that what you actually posted contradicts everything you have said in previous threads. Whether you know it or not you are clearly a Japanese fanboy. It's ok though. The world needs those people too.

If you say you are into tuning and that's what you respect then that's great. I really respect that and I respect people who can work on their own cars greatly. The interesting thing is that when you mentioned American cars in your paragraph you quickly mentioned that you don't care about stock numbers but tuning numbers. Well news flash buddy, hot rodding didn't start in Japan. People like my grandfather were souping up their American iron almost 70 years ago. I'm sure it was happening in some grass roots form in other countries too but America gets credit for it. That's not the point though, if you really are into tuning you should be all over American V8s. They are as tuner ready as it comes. Also cars like the SRT-4, Cobalt SS, and Pontiac Solstice, just to name a few are extremely tuner friendly current vehicles.

To compare and almost imply that the S2000 and C6 Z06 are in the same league is absurd. The Z06 is a race horse, the S2000 is racing dog. Both are fantastic high performance machines but on two totally different levels. If you like tuning, just wait until the big boys of the Vette world really start cranking up the LS7.

The whole point of this is on the surface you say you are an enthusiast and respect American cars but if anyone reads much of your posts it becomes clear you aren't. I also have some PMs from you that definately point to being a total fanboy. Don't know if you remember that or not? It's when you said you would block me if I responded after myself and a few others called you a fanboy.

 

[YSSMAN]

Excuse me? Did you not read what i just said?

EDIT: What ever i'm done with you. I don't even want to get it into it with you. You obiously don't know me as a person, nor Vectradriver, so i don't want to hear none of your girlish bitching.

We've had our own skirmishes before, and while you may have had a good ol' "I kinda love America" backpedal there, it doesn't do much to go against your previous anti-American record from before. We attempt to use reason and logic when going against you and vectradriver, and thus far, it appears as though nothing has worked.

...Atleast when Poverty and I have our scuffles, we can to some extent see the other side of the story. Granted, neither of us like to be proven wrong, but when we are, we are.

 

[neanderthal]

im not so sure that hes that off, if he is referring to cars from the drivers enjoyment/ involvement point of view.

generally speaking, most american cars dont really impart much pleasure when you drive them hard, even if they post the big handling numbers and braking numbers and so on. and generally speaking thats also true even of the performance cars. although some of the recent ones are really coming up to speed on things like feedback and tactility.

now granted, theres many different ways of comparing cars, and driver feedback is only one of them. quiet smooth ride is another, and theres precious few cars that can beat a lowly buick for something like that.

however (this is called a counterpoint people, it means im smart enough to argue both sides) that said if we are to use racing as a measure of how successful a company is in that sporting direction, afterall, racing is the most elevated state of driving enthusiasm, then youll find that american cars are just as competitive if not better than thier european rivals, as they can certainly win at the track. (can you say "holy run on sentence batman?")

i think one of the reasons that the M3 is so vaunted is that its really a great holistic car. not too much power, brakes, steering, but just enough everything. and it feels right. feel is very subjective though, so let me put it this way. its easier for a novice to get in an M3 and go 95% than just about any american performance car. in fact id wager than any american performace car. the inputs and outputs and responses are balanced very very well. anyone who has driven it very hard can tell you.

thats not to say you cant drive a vette hard. just that a novice would most likely crash or something. but i think im going a little off topic here.

if hes talking about anything other than feel, tactility etc, then just put down that crack pipe and step away from the mushrooms.

let me conclude by saying this; for feel, theres little to beat the porsches and M3s of this world. in the real world, all the feel in the universe will still get you a can of whoop ass from a CTS-V or Z06.

 

[High-Test]

Excellent post, neanderthal. +rep


While I totally disagree with vectradriver's complete narrow mindedness, I will say that european cars are fun to drive. Take the 2003 Saab 9-3 I'm currently driving. 170 horses, 4 doors, and a nice european suspension. Putting it in manumatic (why'd we have to get an auto..) and blasting down a twisty road makes for a release of endorphines. I did an experiment, where, the more I manipulate the steering wheel and throttle, the more euphoric I become.


But, I hop in my Dad's 2006 Charger R/T, it's a different story, with the same result. Turn the generic Chrysler key, and one's eardrums get blasted by sheer music. One is happy just by starting up such a beastly car. The car feels twice as big as the Saab, but that's irrelevant, as it's twice as powerful, too. Depress the throttle pedal to the floor, and one notices that the clown in the Fox body is a block behind. But it's not the same feel. There's still the give, the cushy ride. I know I'm driving the suspension of a last gen E class, but it's still not as fun to drive as the saab. The Dodge may look cooler, but the saab is more fun.


what I'm getting at is that Different people have different tastes. Period. No matter how much one disagrees, one shouldn't claim that everyone else is wrong. (And that's coming from me!) Although I may seriously question the intelligence of the people at my school who have bodykits, massive wheels, massive mufflers, and still the stock brake drums in the rear, it's their money and they're happy.

vectradriver, you're 4000+ miles away from Duke, America, and all of our big icky sluglike cars. I don't really see what the problem is.

The Saab 9-3 is probably as good as any other comparable sedan anywhere.




Taurus SHO!? Where's Brian when you need him?

 

[Famine]

I think we're possibly judging vectradriver on a point he isn't making.

His point isn't that American cars blow - though obviously they do - but that the typical car made in Europe is a more interesting drive than the typical car made in the US. Not necessarily faster or more powerful, but a better place to be and to drive.

Can you honestly disagree with that?

It has to be said that an awful lot of cars in both markets - and the most popular ones - are dross, or forgettable at best. There's some good in each and some utterly awful in each, but the fact is that the average car is, well, average. It's just that the European average is a little better than the American average - which is in turn better than the Japanese average (for instance I can't find one fun to drive car that Toyota currently sells in Europe, though the Yaris supermini is good in its sector). Each region still produces really good cars and really bad cars, but pulling random examples out of the air isn't helpful when it's the average that's really the issue. Our crap is still crap. Your brilliant is still brilliant. Nothing can change this.

Price isn't really a helpful comparative either. We pay more for cars in Europe than you do in the States. If we're in Denmark, even more still. That's just a fact of life - and even your performance bargains are stupidly expensive here (C6? That'll be £55,000, please).


Maybe I'm off-base a little - I don't have much experience of the US market, because I don't live there - but to steal a modsquad term, the signal-to-noise ratio is just that little higher in Europe than the US.


Then again, a lot of people like the noise, otherwise they wouldn't be buying so many damn Corollas.

 

[niky]

I'll be the first to chime in and say: Mazda makes the best cars in the world, from a driver-involvement point-of-view, period. Why does anyone else even bother?













And to get off the whole Euro vs US vs Japan thing, I think it's kind of silly lumping the products of half-a-dozen or more different countries, and countless different companies and proclaiming them, as a whole, better than cars from one country.

Japan rules them all. Buzzy little tinboxes that will tell you much more about the road than the floaty US or supple and controlled (oh, and heavy) Euro car will. Can anyone honestly say that any other car screams driver involvement more than a Suzuki Cappucino or a Honda Beat? M3, eat your crappy electronic hat.









In case anyone's wondering... no, I'm not being serious. But I find auto-racism by location to be extremely strange, considering most cars in said markets are built somewhere else, owned by someone else, and designed by someone else entirely. And not all co-market cars are created equal... that Toyota Corolla may have more "noise" in it than an Opel Astra... but that, in turn, has more "noise" in it than an old MX3 or 323...

And, @vectradriver: you read the wrong magazines. I personally find that EVO seems to be a bit more objective about things than most. At least they'll level criticism at cars based on merit... not lineage.

And Topgear? Yeah, they think all American cars are ****... that's why Clarkson has so many of them...

 

[Famine]

that Toyota Corolla may have more "noise" in it than an Opel Astra... but that, in turn, has more "noise" in it than an old MX3 or 323...

Well quite - but the point was that the "noise" is the average, background car. You can pluck out signals from all over - be they good or bad - but the point was that there's slightly more good signal compared to bad signal and background noise in Europe than there is in the US, and slightly more in the US than there is in Japan. And Malaysia and Korea can go straight to hell, without collecting £200.

You can say "Oh but x/y/z is really good/bad!". Great. Don't care. It's not the standout good/bad cars that are the issue, but everything else that makes up the market.


Put it this way. The average European-market, European-maker cars are:
BMW 3-series
Citroen C2
Ford Fiesta/Focus/Mondeo
Peugeot 206
Volkswagen Golf
Vauxhall/Opel Corsa/Astra/Vectra

These represent, at least in the UK, the majority of car sales in Europe. Now, you can say what you like about the C2/206/Fiesta/Focus/Golf/Astra - they're cheap (for the market) FWD hatchbacks which is really what the market wants (our roads, even residentially, are narrower than and not as straight as in the US and a lot of your time is spent parking the damn things somewhere), but they all have nice, comfortable interiors which are well-appointed with goodies, well-made (except the C2 and 206, which are held together with chewing gum and hope) and, importantly, all have very high driver satisfaction. They tell you what's going on beneath you at all times - something which cannot easily be rated by 0-60mph, 1/4 mile, slalom or skidpad. There's no reasonable excuse for the Corsa. Sorry. The Vectra, Mondeo and 3-series all sell themselves on being comfortable on what long journeys we have and, with the exception of the Vectra, can handle themselves in twisties. Pretty much everything in the top 20 car sales by volume in the UK has this driver communication. The average here in terms of driver satisfaction is very high (even though build quality and reliability may not be, and the Corsa is on the list).

What's interesting is that only 2 of the list are of note in the US - the 3-series and the Golf. For some reason, our pond-hopping friends like the Germans...


Now, the best person to ask here is Duke. Can you state, hand-on-heart, that any of the top 10 US-market, US-company cars (I'm obviously not including SUVs or the F-series in "cars" ) offer the same level of driver satisfaction as your 3-series? I'm struggling to find lists of best-selling cars, but from what I can determine, the only US-market, US-company cars in your top 10 are the Chevrolet Impala and Malibu and the Ford Mustang and Taurus (your Focus sells well, but is the old European Mk1 - include it if you wish).


I think this is - or ought to be - vectradriver's point. The average US car isn't as good to drive as the average European one. That doesn't mean that all US cars aren't any good to drive, or that they don't have any good qualities at all, or that you're all flag-waving rednecks for buying one - and it doesn't mean "Yurop is da 1337 y0!!!11!" and that we can do no wrong. Case in point: Vauxhall Corsa. Just that your most "typical" cars aren't as good to drive.



It has to be said that this comparison isn't easy to make - most of us haven't experienced both markets and have to rely on the written word - so stating it as concrete fact, or getting annoyed about it and refuting it in an equally concrete fashion, isn't wise. I'd err on the side that what I've stated is correct (I would though) and would ask that anyone who has experienced the typical cars on both sides (I'd say... Duke and Smallhorses at the least - though Smallhorses would be coloured by the fact that the idiots gave him a Vectra last time he was here) pass their opinion on this.

 

[Poverty]

n America a lot of European cars don't make sensible purchases mainly due to price,

Actually its a hell of alot cheaper to be a bmw,audi etc owner in america than it is in Europe/UK.

 

[Famine]

But it's also a hell of a lot cheaper to be a Chrysler, Ford or Chevrolet owner than it is to be a BMW, Audi or Mercedes owner...

The Chrysler 300C isn't a big seller here as, though it's cheaper than its German rivals, there isn't enough offset between price and pleasure (5 series £28k-£48k [M5 £64k], 300C £26k-£39k [inc. SRT-8]). It's a bigger seller in the US as there is (5 series $44k-$58k [M5 $81k], 300C $26k-$42 [inc. SRT-8]).

 

[Poverty]

Everythings cheaper in the states though, gas, tax, houses are a hell of alot cheaper.

The gap between being a non bmw owner in the UK and the US is alot larger in the UK though with comparable products etc.