American vs. Euro/Japanese cars - from GT4 board

[Poverty]

One bit of sloppiness that I'm seeing in this thread is the assumption that it's ok to compare European cars to American cars (or cars from Japan).

Stick with Country vs. Country. UK vs. America or Germany vs. America is much more fair than Europe vs America. To make Europe vs. America fair you'd really have to compare all of North America to Europe. And with the help of mexico, central America, and Canada, I'm afriad Europe would get it's ass handed to it.

I agreed till the part highlighted in read. What cars do the mexicans etc manufacture?

 

[Famine]

Interesting. How strong is the Canadian car-making industry? Or the Mexican? As far as I'm aware some manufacturers outsource production to Canada and Mexico for the US market and that's about it.


Way I see it, the US is a conglomeration of quasi-autonomous states with a central lawmaking body, a population of about 280 million and several large vehicle-making concerns therein. Europe is a conglomeration of quasi-autonomous states with a central lawmaking body, a population of about 280 million and several large vehicle-making concerns therein. Vehicles sold in the US, with perhaps a couple of exceptions for state-dependant emissions, are pretty much identical everywhere you go. Vehicles sold in Europe, with perhaps a couple of exceptions for niche vehicles, are pretty much identical everywhere you go.

The US market and the European market are pretty much analogous.

 

[IMADreamer]

So your judging my past on how i think now? Very smart, you must be a genius! In my past my brain was fried with experamenting. I said alot of **** i wouldn't of have now. I think some of you that read notice that my posts are a lot better.... Hmmm I wonder why.

And i make these posts cause i'm trying to get the point across that im not a big Japanese fanboy. Here i'll put it this way. It's like a fasion, you like somthing for awile, and you change your mind later. And since i'm only a sophmore in High School, i still ahve alot to learn, and my mind will change a lot.

When i was a kid, i loved all cars that moved. Untill when i was about 10 to about the 6th grade I aboslutly loved American Muscle. Funny isn't it? Well it was what i liked. Then i loved pretty much Tunners until i stopped frying my brains. Now I still love tunners, and even more now Euro cars.

I think you can see the point i'm coming across now, cause my last one aparently didn't come across you guys.

That's cool then. I am a firm believer in second chances so if you are making a fresh start of sorts then great. The past is all water under the bridge as far as I am concerned.

Ok, I am way off topic sorry.

I think most people here understand that the fundamental differences when comparing Euro to American is the driving styles of the citizens of that country which dictate what cars the manufactures produce. That's what it all boils down too really. It's not that American companies can't make a BMW like car and it's not that the Euro guys couldn't make a Z06 like car. It's that they choose not too.

 

[Master_Yoda]

Can we give this subject a frickin rest? I mean you guys are abously NEVER going to agree, or make him realise that the Vette is a amazing vehicle. And this is coming from someone who absolutly hates it. But I know it's a car that EVERYONE needs to realise it's there, and it owns face against other high price cars.

Vectra: I sugest that you just give up. Euro cars are great, i love them to death. But they arnt the best at every thing. Sure BMW, and Porsche are world class sport cars. But they to get owned. Every car gets it's ass handed to sooner or later. But the C6 Z06 is USA's new tool, there baby, there 911. There car that truly owns major face. I'm not saying you have to like it, i hate it, but respect it for what it is. Just watch, i'm sure Porsche, BMW, or who ever will pull out a car that will make mince meat out of the C6 Z06. But for now let it take the throne.

@ Mods, i think we really see what is comeing out of this thread, nothing. I think it's safe to safe that we have discussed this subject has been discussedd to death. Lets let it rest in peace.

 

[Duke]

The US market and the European market are pretty much analogous.

Except that the US market has more stringent pollution and crash-safety regulations than Europe does (which is at least what is claimed when manufacturers are explaining why they don't homologate/federalize their sportiest models for export to the US).

Whereas Mexico, for example, has much less stringetnt controls (particularly on pollution) which allows US manufacturers (and others) to sell hotter versions of American domestic market cars. One such example would be the Mexican market (but US-engineered) Dodge Stratus R/T, which featured substantially more handling-oriented suspension to go with the 2.4l turbo engine later developed for the Neon SRT and GT Cruiser.

 

[Tornado]

I've also heard rumours of US-branded Japanese cars (Acura, Lexus, Infiniti) being "softened" (more suspension travel, more roll) compared to their otherwise-identical Japanese/World-branded counterparts (Honda, Toyota, Nissan) but cannot even begin to confirm or deny that this is the case.

I'm thinking the NSX would be a good example of such a case, or perhaps the U.S. ITR.

 

[///M-Spec]

let me conclude by saying this; for feel, theres little to beat the porsches and M3s of this world. in the real world, all the feel in the universe will still get you a can of whoop ass from a CTS-V or Z06.

Ditto. I'd +Rep that if I hadn't already given you some lately.

I'm going to disagree here on a couple of levels:

• His point IS that American cars blow. He clearly stated that, categorically, American cars are bad. All American cars are inferior to European and Japanese products in capability, design, and build.
• His point never touched on typical European cars at all (which, in fact, I pointed out earlier in one of these threads). He insisted on holding up several stellar examples (such as the M3) and saying that American cars could never match that quality or capability.
• I also honestly disagree that the AVERAGE European car is notably better than the AVERAGE American car to drive.

But his point - certainly as he put it across - is that most American cars are crap, and there are no brilliant American cars at all.

I'm with Duke on this. The fallacies inherant in his argument are two fold:

He has a certain set of criteria for what a quality car is. In short, it must be interesting to drive. Balance, feel, involvement; all good and fine. Many enthusiasts look for these qualities in a car, myself them.

The leap he makes next is that if a car doesn't measure up well in this criteria, it must be a bad car ---Regardless of whether or not it was designed for this in the first place. American cars, of course exemplify this.

What he doesn't get is that mainstream American cars are not designed with these qualities in mind because most Americans have other priorities when they shop for a mainstream car. A Five Hundred or Impala is boring because that's exactly what it's buyer wants it to be. Ever driven a US market Accord or Passat? They're the same way.

The second portion of his so called argument is the whole "numbers aren't everything" approach to judging a car. Just because a Corvette can generate greater lateral grip in a fast sweeper than the F430 doesn't make it a better car. I actually agree with this statement.

However, it doesn't make the Corvette a bad car. It just has different priorities.

Generally speaking, American car enthusiasts are results oriented people. They (we) like numbers. Numbers are difficult to dispute. You can quibble and debate what feels good and what doesn't all day, but cool hard facts are tough to deny. That's why 0-60, quarter mile and skidpad is so dominant in our advertising.

It's a cultural trait that American car makers understand and home in on. That's why Vettes, Vipers and Cobras make big numbers.

We don't say "my GT500 makes me feel all connected and touchy-feely inside when I drive it." We say "my GT500 makes more torque at idle than your M3 does at WOT and rips your car a new a@#$0le."

Really, our friend neanderthal said it best in the paragraph I quoted above.

Now of course, I understand not every American feels this way. I don't. Because if I did, I wouldn't be driving a relatively gutless BMW when I could have easily afforded a second hand C5 Z06 or brand new Evo MR. But many people here do.

If he had started this by saying "Americans don't make cars I want to drive", I don't think anyone would have said anything. It's rare that Ford, GM and Chrysler make anything I want to drive either. But of course that's not what he said. He said that we don't know how, which is an entirely different sort of statement.


M

 

[Swift]

We don't say "my GT500 makes me feel all connected and touchy-feely inside when I drive it." We say "my GT500 makes more torque at idle than your M3 does at WOT and rips your car a new a@#$0le."

Proud to be an American!

That's the best line I've seen on here in a while.

 

[YSSMAN]

W00T on the numbers thing. I can appreciate feel just as much as anyone else (hence the reasons why I drive a Jetta and not a Cavalier or Civic), numbers let everyone KNOW my car is faster than theirs.

 

[Danoff]

The US market and the European market are pretty much analogous.

Hey, it's not our fault that the US rocks - just because we have as many people as all of Europe doesn't mean it's fair to compare our country to a "continent" of nations.

Besides, you guys are really relying too heavily on Germany. (Whereas we rely too heavily on Chevy)

Edit: Also, as far as comparisons go, it's really not fair to compare Europe - US - JAPAN

 

[Duke]

Man, ///M-spec, you are a veritable font of sig material lately. Good to see you back, man!

Americans are not the only ones fixated on numbers, either. Hence the prevalence of screaming Japanese turbo grenades that make peak horsepower that is double their torque number, in a 500 rpm range, at about 7800 rpm. Americans would never settle for an engine that out of square, unless they are JDM-loving Japanamaniacs.

PS - I wish my BMW was as "gutless" as yours is, ///M.

 

[Famine]

Hey, it's not our fault that the US rocks - just because we have as many people as all of Europe doesn't mean it's fair to compare our country to a "continent" of nations.

What is the US, if not a continent of nations? You have 50 little countries (some not that small - Alaska would be the 40th largest country on Earth, and Texas is as big as New Zealand) with their own individual law systems (we've all seen the amusing threads) bound by a common, centralised lawmaking body. Europe has exactly the same thing, only without a unified federal police force or army (yet).

Besides, you guys are really relying too heavily on Germany. (Whereas we rely too heavily on Chevy)

Read my list again. One German car (though Ford Europe are based in Germany, the production of the vehicles takes place at various points around Europe, with final assembly in Germany, Spain and Belgium).

I'm just taking the top 10/20 cars sold in each region that are "of" that region and comparing how they are to drive. My list, with the exception of the Corsa and Vectra, which are as interesting as stone soup, are all genuinely good to drive with lots of driver feedback, even in the absence of big numbers. I'm just interested in how the top 10/20 US-brand, US-market cars are to drive - not 1/4 mile, not 0-60mph, not skidpad, not slalom, but how they feel to drive.

Incidentally, I'd no more class the Camry as American than I would class the Civic as British, and I'd no more class the 300C as German than I would class the S-Type as American. So, just as I did, exclude Japanese brand names from your top 10/20 lists.

Edit: Also, as far as comparisons go, it's really not fair to compare Europe - US - JAPAN

Why not?

6 of the top 15 manufacturers by volume are Japanese concerns. 3 are American (including the Chrysler bit of DaimlerChrysler), 5 are European and the missing link is the Korean Hyundai-Kia group. Japan has, thus, more major manufacturers in one country than any other continent! Their total road vehicle production each year is directly comparable to the US - 11.5 million for the US, 10.1 million for Japan, the 1st and 2nd largest vehicle manufacturing nations on the planet - though the sum total of the major European countries does pass the pair with 14.4 million (these figures including "light commercials").

The motor industry itself classes the three major markets as the US (USDM), Japan (JDM) and Europe (EDM)...

 

[Poverty]

Besides, you guys are really relying too heavily on Germany.

Its all europe has. If the germans go bust somehow the japanese would take over, namely lexus and infinit and honda.

Americans are not the only ones fixated on numbers, either. Hence the prevalence of screaming Japanese turbo grenades that make peak horsepower that is double their torque number, in a 500 rpm range, at about 7800 rpm.

germans are a combination of the two

 

[Danoff]

What is the US, if not a continent of nations? You have 50 little countries (some not that small - Alaska would be the 40th largest country on Earth, and Texas is as big as New Zealand) with their own individual law systems (we've all seen the amusing threads) bound by a common, centralised lawmaking body. Europe has exactly the same thing, only without a unified federal police force or army (yet).

I still don't see this as fair at all. You're penalizing the US and Japan for having large markets and many auto manufacturers. Maybe you can stack the population numbers up similarly, but I maintain that allowing the European nations to group together for the purpose of a comparison against other nations is stacking the deck in their favor. Besides, it allows some countries that have fairly lackluster auto output to hide behind... germany for example who makes better cars than anyone else in the world.

Basically whatever group you throw Germany in wins, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm just taking the top 10/20 cars sold in each region that are "of" that region and comparing how they are to drive.

Here's the list of top selling American vehicles:

MAKE/MODEL ASSEMBLY PARTS STATUS
Ford F-Series USA 85% DOMESTIC
Chevrolet Silverado USA 90% DOMESTIC
Toyota Camry USA 80% DOMESTIC
Dodge Ram USA 74% IMPORT
Honda Accord USA 70% IMPORT
Honda Civic USA 70% IMPORT
Chevrolet Impala CANADA 92% IMPORT
Dodge Grand Caravan – SWB USA 83% DOMESTIC
Nissan Altima USA 65% IMPORT
Chevrolet Cobalt USA 75% DOMESTIC
Toyota Corolla USA 75% DOMESTIC
GMC Sierra USA 90% DOMESTIC
Ford Focus USA 60% IMPORT
Ford Explorer USA 80% DOMESTIC
Chevrolet Malibu USA 80% DOMESTIC
Honda Odyssey USA 70% IMPORT
Ford Mustang USA 60% IMPORT
Toyota Tacoma USA 70% IMPORT
Chevrolet TrailBlazer USA 85% DOMESTIC
Chevrolet Tahoe USA 67% IMPORT



I'd rewrite this list to look like the following:


MAKE/MODEL
Ford F-Series
Chevrolet Silverado
Dodge Ram
Chevrolet Impala
Dodge Grand Caravan
Chevrolet Cobalt
GMC Sierra
Ford Focus
Ford Explorer
Chevrolet Malibu
Ford Mustang
Chevrolet TrailBlazer
Chevrolet Tahoe

Notice anything? Americans like trucks. American car companies make trucks. Hell non-American car companies make trucks to sell to Americans we like them so much. There is little incentive for American car companies to make good cars to sell at higher cost in other countries if the locals like trucks so much.

That's why our number of braggable cars (Mustang, Vette, Viper, Saleen - which I'm not a big fan of, Charger, etc...) is fairly low.

On the otherhand, Ford owns Mazda, Aston Martin, Volvo, and a bunch of other car companies.... if those count then we win.

 

[Dave A]

Ok just say North America, Asia and Europe, Japan doesn't get a benefit from Korea and Malasia, rather Japan get's hindered. All the European cars built in Mexico ie VW's arn't built as well as they are in Europe either, the opinions and experiences of Americans as well as reviews and break downs confirm this. Either way, Europe is the stronger mainly thanks to Germany. I'm not knocking American cars at all, you'll see that I have defended them from little McVectra because he was being overly biased and as Duke pointed out, just plain wrong. We have Aston (they're British, built in Britain by British people with British money but nice try), Audi, Jaguar, Ford, Mercedes, Marcos, BMW, TVR, Volvo, SEAT, Saab, VW, Opel and Vauxhall, Koengisegg, Fiat, Alfa Romeo, Noble, Bentley, Rolls Royce, Citoren, Peugeot, Renault, Ferarri, Porsche, Skoda, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Yes, Maybach, Maserati, Pagani, Spyker, Weismann, Lotus, Caterham and a whole crap load more. We just have far, far more companies to choose from, also our tastes in vehicles are a little different, putting the US as North America and Japan as Asia doesn't really change much.

 

[Danoff]

putting the US as North America and Japan as Asia doesn't really change much.

Yea but see, now we can blame Mexico, Canada, and all those countries down by the equator for not pulling their weight. We certainly have done plenty for one country and it isn't our fault that your neighbors are better at building cars (Germany, Italy) than ours (Mexico, Guatemala).

 

[Dave A]

Ahh, I get you, counting America as one country only against say England as one country leaves America the clear winner, I'd say Germany is better than America but probalby Germany and only Germany on a signle country basis. Itlay makes great supercars but you can't say a country is great because it only makes great supercars, Alfas break down and Fiats alone can't take on the US small and medium sized car market.

 

[Famine]

I still don't see this as fair at all. You're penalizing the US and Japan for having large markets and many auto manufacturers. Maybe you can stack the population numbers up similarly, but I maintain that allowing the European nations to group together for the purpose of a comparison against other nations is stacking the deck in their favor. Besides, it allows some countries that have fairly lackluster auto output to hide behind... germany for example who makes better cars than anyone else in the world.

Still, the car industry classes the three - US, Europe, Japan - as the three major car markets.

And this isn't about "better" cars. Okay, it may have been originally, but my query is whether the average car in each of the three markets, as produced by that market rather than foreign marques, is good to drive.

This could be why American vehicles fail in Europe - with the exception of SUVs, which are uniformly crap to drive - and why there's such a low perception of them. Our average car is good to drive. It isn't necessarily fast, or big bhp, or even particularly good at handling (the list is mainly FWD hatchbacks), but it is good to drive. I'm merely asking whether the average US-market US-marque car is good to drive or not.

Basically whatever group you throw Germany in wins, as far as I'm concerned.

Except that, in the average car stakes, Germany barely gets a look-in. In the top 10 sellers, Germany appears once, with the 3-series.

Here's the list of top selling American vehicles:

MAKE/MODEL ASSEMBLY PARTS STATUS
Ford F-Series USA 85% DOMESTIC
Chevrolet Silverado USA 90% DOMESTIC
Toyota Camry USA 80% DOMESTIC
Dodge Ram USA 74% IMPORT
Honda Accord USA 70% IMPORT
Honda Civic USA 70% IMPORT
Chevrolet Impala CANADA 92% IMPORT
Dodge Grand Caravan – SWB USA 83% DOMESTIC
Nissan Altima USA 65% IMPORT
Chevrolet Cobalt USA 75% DOMESTIC
Toyota Corolla USA 75% DOMESTIC
GMC Sierra USA 90% DOMESTIC
Ford Focus USA 60% IMPORT
Ford Explorer USA 80% DOMESTIC
Chevrolet Malibu USA 80% DOMESTIC
Honda Odyssey USA 70% IMPORT
Ford Mustang USA 60% IMPORT
Toyota Tacoma USA 70% IMPORT
Chevrolet TrailBlazer USA 85% DOMESTIC
Chevrolet Tahoe USA 67% IMPORT

I'd rewrite this list to look like the following:

MAKE/MODEL
Ford F-Series
Chevrolet Silverado
Dodge Ram
Chevrolet Impala
Dodge Grand Caravan
Chevrolet Cobalt
GMC Sierra
Ford Focus
Ford Explorer
Chevrolet Malibu
Ford Mustang
Chevrolet TrailBlazer
Chevrolet Tahoe

Notice anything? Americans like trucks. American car companies make trucks. Hell non-American car companies make trucks to sell to Americans we like them so much. There is little incentive for American car companies to make good cars to sell at higher cost in other countries if the locals like trucks so much.

Though I'm excising the trucks as they don't have to be good to drive. Incidentally, how is the Camry classed as "domestic" when even Toyota stick import VINs on it despite the USDM car being built in the US?

That's why our number of braggable cars (Mustang, Vette, Viper, Saleen - which I'm not a big fan of, Charger, etc...) is fairly low.

On the otherhand, Ford owns Mazda, Aston Martin, Volvo, and a bunch of other car companies.... if those count then we win.

I don't care about braggable cars. I don't care about the really good or really bad. All I care about is the average. All I want to find out is how good the average US-market, US-marque car is to drive, and how it stacks up against the average European-market, European-marque car and the average Japanese-market, Japanese-marque car. The Saleen, Viper, Vette are all very good cars and very, very fast indeed, but not even slightly representative of the US market's cars.

I did state earlier for vectradriver's edification that I've found little mileage in arguing where cars are from based on parts, assembly or the money tree. Nothing on Earth will convince an American that Chrysler isn't American - money tree and parts say that it's German. Money tree, parts and assembly say that the Vauxhall/Opel VX220/Speedster is English, American, German and Malaysian - it's not helpful. So I stick with the marque's location. Chrysler is American, Jaguar is British, Nissan is Japanese, Saab is Swedish.

So cutting your list down to cars from US marques, I get:

Chevrolet Impala
Chevrolet Cobalt
Ford Focus (you make them for your own market, though they were originally a Ford Europe product)
Chevrolet Malibu
Ford Mustang

So... those five cars... I don't want to know how fast they do anything, or how many torques they have. I want to know... does the driver enjoy driving them? Are they like badminton racquets (they feel like part of your body when you use them)? Quick reminder of my EDM list:

BMW 3-series - yes.
Citroen C2 - yes.
Ford Fiesta/Focus/Mondeo - yes, yes, yes.
Peugeot 206 - yes.
Volkswagen Golf - yes.
Vauxhall/Opel Corsa/Astra/Vectra - no, yes, no.

(and I should note that I hate all but two of those cars)

Edit: I've got hold of a partial list for Japan for 2005...
1. Toyota Corolla - no.
2. Toyota Yaris/Vitz - yes.
3. Honda Fit/Jazz - very much so.
4. Nissan Tiida - not a clue.
5-10 were 4 Toyotas, a Honda and an unspecified car.


The Corolla sells in Europe too, despite, like the Corsa and Vectra, being numb to drive. This is probably in part due to the demographics. Vectras are bought by fleet managers because they're bigger than a hatchback and cheap. Corsas are bought by teenage girls as first cars - and girls know nothing about driving. Corollas are bought by old people, because they're inoffensive to look at and smell nice.

 

[Danoff]

Chevrolet Impala
Chevrolet Cobalt
Ford Focus (you make them for your own market, though they were originally a Ford Europe product)
Chevrolet Malibu
Ford Mustang

I don't know how these cars feel to drive because I've never driven any of them. The only US vehicles I've driven are trucks/SUVs. For cars I lean toward Japan/Germany.

 

[Famine]

Last time I ask you anything!

 

[YSSMAN]

So cutting your list down to cars from US marques, I get:

Chevrolet Impala
Chevrolet Cobalt
Ford Focus (you make them for your own market, though they were originally a Ford Europe product)
Chevrolet Malibu
Ford Mustang

So... those five cars... I don't want to know how fast they do anything, or how many torques they have. I want to know... does the driver enjoy driving them? Are they like badminton racquets (they feel like part of your body when you use them)?

Impala: Depends on the model, as the SS is the only "sporty" version, but it is still more apt to highway driving than anything else. But the W-Body is old, really old, and will soon be replaced by the Commodore's Zeta/VE chassis. Impalas I've driven were nice because they rode well, and handeled predictably when going through a set of twisties. You don't feel like a racecar driver when you do it, but it is what it is, a baisic mid-size sedan that is built for highway driving and city commutes.

Cobalt: Depends on the model again, but the LT Sport, SS N/A and SS Supercharged feel pretty good by comparison to the European and Japanese competition. The Delta chassis it rides on was co-developed with Opel, so there is some "goodness" there. I drove an LT Sport Coupe with the 5-speed Getrag transmission, and I loved it. The car was built to do exactly what the MKIV Jetta could do, and they did a good job matching the car. But the electromechanical steering is a problem there, so driving enthusiests would want to move up to the SS trim levels for the rack-and-pinion setup.

Focus: Like the others, depends on the model. I drove a "regular" SE Wagon and I thought it was allright. Again, it reminded me of a really cheap Jetta to some extent, but it was definately Americanized with ride quality in mind. But the money is with the late-model SVTs, which are similar to the RS and ST trim levels from Europe, but they are sans Turbo and AWD. The current American ST is the "replacement" for the SVT model, and although it performs quite well, it isn't as good as the SVT from before.

Malibu: Its the same car as the Vectra, but the suspension tuning has been turned down just a bit to give it better ride quality. I've driven LS and LT models (no SS yet), and I liked it a lot. The electromechanical steering doesn't communicate too well, but the car does what you want, so it's something to get used to. I belive the SS model goes with rack-and-pinion steering, and from what I understand it is a good car to drive. Think Vectra VXR but without the torque steer and a little less understeer.

Mustang: Again, depends on the model. The ones I've driven go along quite well, but it isn't a 3-series in terms of response. For $27K, I can't think of too many cars that are better for that price, as the car drives and rides quite well despite having a LRA out back.

 

[neanderthal]

thanks to various for the kudos.

For the record I've been seriously impressed with how the 300C looks. But before you claim it's American, you've nulified your point, it is built on the old E Class chassis and therefore American in design and largely German in engineering. There isn't anything wrong with that. In time, more component sharing will pull American cars up to a similar level as ours.

i call bullsh.. erm, ..............shenanigans on this.

the 300C is categorically NOT built on the old (W210) mercedes E class chassis. its significantly wider and longer, and built on its own LX "chassis" using MODIFIED parts from the W210 chassis. these parts are parts that were not in chyslers' parts bins and necessary in the formation of a rear wheel drive passenger car. we're talking about a rear suspension subframe that was not only widened but had its hard points changed. same for the front suspension also with altered characteristics. the differential. and the transmission. only on the 5 speed auto gearbox would i say it was taken directly from mercedes without alteration. proof

so how about YOU get YOUR facts striaght before you start pontificating and showing us your lack of viable grey matter.

and your last sentence implies that the quality of american cars is subpar to that of european cars.

heres some crow for you. the most recent JD powers results for cars sold in the north american market.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...ry=AUTO01&ArtNo=606080384&Ref=H5&Profile=1121

and this here is what we call humble pie

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...ry=AUTO01&ArtNo=606080384&Ref=V6&Profile=1121

 

[///M-Spec]

Man, ///M-spec, you are a veritable font of sig material lately. Good to see you back, man!

Thanks I'm about done with my relocation to Jersey. So once I get settled in, I'll be sending you and Swift a PM about getting together. I think a Philly autocross might be a good venue?

Americans are not the only ones fixated on numbers, either. Hence the prevalence of screaming Japanese turbo grenades that make peak horsepower that is double their torque number, in a 500 rpm range, at about 7800 rpm. Americans would never settle for an engine that out of square, unless they are JDM-loving Japanamaniacs.

Yeah, and of course the Germans are big on numbers too these days with what the crazy horsepower wars going on.

PS - I wish my BMW was as "gutless" as yours is, ///M.

Man, we live in an age of 200 hp Civics and 270 hp Camrys. When Grandma in her Avalon makes the Ultimate Driving Machine work hard to pull away.... it's time to look a little critically at what's going on in the engine bay. I mean, I am an American afterall.


M

 

[IMADreamer]

So cutting your list down to cars from US marques, I get:

Chevrolet Impala
Chevrolet Cobalt
Ford Focus (you make them for your own market, though they were originally a Ford Europe product)
Chevrolet Malibu
Ford Mustang

So... those five cars... I don't want to know how fast they do anything, or how many torques they have. I want to know... does the driver enjoy driving them? Are they like badminton racquets (they feel like part of your body when you use them)? Quick reminder of my EDM list:

.

Well I can speak on all those cars but the Focus. The impala feels like a grandma mobile. Actually my grandparents have one. It's floaty and cushy, but does give good feedback through the wheel. Granted they have the base model so maybe the SS is better? I can't say from experience though. If you are looking for a car to compete with the Euro sedans, this isn't it.

The Malibu does offer plenty of feedback but no sportyness. It's a nice drive if all you are concerned about is going from A to B. It's comfortable, quiet, and the 3500 V6 has plenty of power for anything you want to do with it. My father owns one of these so that's my experience with it.

The New Mustang has good feedback on everything and I did feel apart of the car. I enjoyed the drive but there were plenty of other things I didn't like about the car. If someone just wanted what I would call stupid fun, which is tire scorching power and a great noise then this is a fantastic car. My experience with it was a 20 minute test drive.

Now to the Cobalt. I own the SS/SC so I can speak to this well. I am not being bias here because I own it and as I have said on this site I drove everything under 35k USD that I could get my hands on before buying a car. Now am I saying this is the best car under 35k? Hell no, not even close, but it's the best bargin. The car has great feel, great power, great feedback. The gearbox is precise, and the steering is heavy enough to give excellent feed back but light enough to manuver easily through shopping mall parking lots. This is due to the electronic assist. I do feel one with the car when I am on spirited runs so much so that everything seems to operate seemlessly and smoothly for me. I find it very easy to get into the zone. In it's price point and class I would pit this up against anything in the world and through unbiased eyes I think it would rank at or near the top with everyone who tested it. It's a fantastic little car.

 

[vectradriver]

Cars that handle well are generally better for any type of road driving, because in an emergency, it is nice to know your car is capable of evasive action, without fear of it rolling over. Some of the best handling cars have extremely good ride quality as it is this that aids roadholding and integrity when cornering. The Lotus Elise for example rides far more smoothly than a roadster would be expected to be. My original point, before you became all defensive of your car industry (with a Japanese car the number 1 seller: what does that tell you about what the majority of car buyers want?) was that to a car enthusiast, such as KY, there are far less American cars to choose from when deciding what to put into the game. Is that not true, when you consider you have weighed up that American cars are designed to excel in other areas. Size and storage have no place in GT do they? And I'm sorry for my strong manner, I was angered by Duke's orignal comment, which I wouldn't have expected from a super moderator. Yes in hindsight I should have said for me, American cars are not involving enough. I look at cars as pure driving devices and hope I always will.

Sorry for any negativity and I'd like to continue to post my Photomode galleries, but at the moment I wonder if my reputation from this thread precedes me.

I await your replies and hope this can be resolved.

Matt

 

[YSSMAN]

Well the problem was vectradriver is that you had an extremely negative attitude included with your opinion. I could really care less if you hate American cars, as generally that isn't my problem, but when you baisically insulted our entire industry and to some extent the people who drive them, that took it too far.

To put everything into perspective, American automakers build cars for their American buyers. Does that mean they are designed for runabouts in Essex or Hampshire? It doesn't mean they can't do it, but they are designed to blast down the highway at 80 MPH with a good level of comfort, and take the on/off ramps with ease as well.

As for the American sports cars you get in Europe, it again is a difference of taste I suppose. The Corvette can indeed hang with the best of Europe, and the Viper can as well. Granted, cars like the Mustang and 300C SRT-8 are about as American as Baseball and Apple Pie, so I wouldn't expect Europeans to like them in the first place.

 

[vectradriver]

Well I tried to let it go, but it seems some can't. I apologised for my negative opinion and why it came about. I don't feel I specifically used derogatory comments about the American people. If you perceive that I did, then sorry. The high-end cars that have been continually mentioned are indeed well received in Britain, but I think the point I always made when questioned about the Z06, is that European opposition have it beat in almost every area except performance, although in that case, the new, less powerful 997 Turbo manages a 3.6 second 0-60 time. That is from Autocar's road test data. I've found the posters who have said 'read a book' or 'get your facts straight' insulting, when on several occassions I have had to correct their errors.

 

[YSSMAN]

Well, no big deal then.

Truce?

(or should we wait for the War of 1812 to break out again later today?)

 

[vectradriver]

Yes I'd like that. Well I can put up some pics in the GT4 gallery now.

 

[Duke]

And I'm sorry for my strong manner, I was angered by Duke's orignal comment, which I wouldn't have expected from a super moderator.

And I wouldn't have expected a statement this dismissive from a driving enthusiast:

As for the American cars, well without being confrontational, the abilities of US cars are far behind EU and Nippon vehicles.

Arbitrary (and incorrect) words like that can lead to strong reactions, no? Making flat, unequivocal, and polarized statements like your initial comment is the mark of a true fanboy, whether the boy in question cares to admit it or not. Perhaps this experience can be constructive for you.

Not to pull the trump card, or anything, but I've probably been driving for much longer than you've been alive. So with that experience I've come to learn that having such a closed, unilateral, and academic view of the car industry (or indeed anything) is a bad idea. Magazine reading will only get you so far - and lots of skepticism is the only way to stay out of trouble. You need to have something more than "well, the European press says so" to back you up when you stake a position like you did in your first post.

Yes in hindsight I should have said for me, American cars are not involving enough. I look at cars as pure driving devices and hope I always will.

I look at some cars as pure driving devices as well. Some cars are meant to be; some are not. But until you've got the seat time to back you up, be very careful when making claims about how "uninvolving" all American cars are (or whatever nation).

Sorry for any negativity and I'd like to continue to post my Photomode galleries, but at the moment I wonder if my reputation from this thread precedes me.

As I suggested, make this a constructive experience. Learn from your mistake. As you've seen, we'll react to you based on the way you present yourself.