American vs. Euro/Japanese cars - from GT4 board

[Wolfe]

Cars that handle well are generally better for any type of road driving, because in an emergency, it is nice to know your car is capable of evasive action, without fear of it rolling over.

I completely agree. That's why I feel unsafe driving my parents' Oldsmobile.

My original point, before you became all defensive of your car industry (with a Japanese car the number 1 seller: what does that tell you about what the majority of car buyers want?) was that to a car enthusiast, such as KY, there are far less American cars to choose from when deciding what to put into the game. Is that not true, when you consider you have weighed up that American cars are designed to excel in other areas. Size and storage have no place in GT do they?

If PD rated car choices strictly in terms of performance and driving pleasure, the car list would barely break 20, and would consist of nothing but sportscars and supercars, much like the earliest Need for Speed games.

The whole point of Gran Turismo, the reason why the series garnered so much attention at its introduction, is to allow players to drive cars that they own, or could possibly own, in addition to the usual sporty suspects.

A Japanese car may be the best-selling brand-new model, but trust me, Detroit iron makes up most of the traffic on our roads by a large margin. It shouldn't come as much of a surprise, then, that american GT fans are calling for more american cars to choose from.

 

[YSSMAN]

^ Certainly.

But I'd rather have PD get the SOUNDS of an American car right before adding more. All of them sound like an exhaust from a 3800 ran threw a drain pipe, muffled by a vaccum cleaner, and then has Hewie Lewis and the News played over it...

 

[niky]

The whole point of Gran Turismo, the reason why the series garnered so much attention at its introduction, is to allow players to drive cars that they own, or could possibly own, in addition to the usual sporty suspects.

A Japanese car may be the best-selling brand-new model, but trust me, Detroit iron makes up most of the traffic on our roads by a large margin. It shouldn't come as much of a surprise, then, that american GT fans are calling for more american cars to choose from.

And another point to make on this: The car choice in PD is not just in regards to handling, but in regards to fun and interesting cars.

Would you say the hundreds of Kei cars are performance vehicles? Low handling limits, poor driver communication (On some of them, last time I drove a Kei class car, it had looser steering than a truck) and generally no speed.

Why did KY put them there? He liked them. Not for any inherent quality that makes them better than other cars, but just because they were fun and interesting... according to him.

Muscle cars? Lots of them now. And, yeah, they can't turn on a dime or keep from oversteering... he still put them in. Again, fun and interesting.

The spirit of Gran Turismo is the appreciation of the motor vehicle per se... which includes common cars that, as Wolfe says, players may own or may aspire to own (thus old sports cars and junkers). But this is all told from the point of view of the Japanese enthusiast, and how he sees the world.

Which means, essentially, that 80% of the cars in the game are Japanese, 10% are American, and 10% are European. No, that's not official. That's off-the-top-of-my-butt-statistics. In future GTs, if KY decides to bring foreigners onto his design team to round out the selection, that may change. But as it is, the lack of American cars reflects the lack of experience and exposure of the GT design team to American cars, and the huge number of plain jane Japanese cars reflects their saturation in that environment.

If, as Famine says in one of these posts, the average Japanese car is below the average American, which is below the average European... then why is the Average Japanese car in the game?

----

Now go out there and drift an Acura CL Type S, and imagine it's a Monte Carlo or an FWD Impala... ...I often do.

 

[Famine]

And, more to the point, why are so many under-average ones there?

Plus, with handling being an unquantifiable "feeling", how important can it be when the majority of players will use a joypad?

 

[Poverty]

^ Certainly.

But I'd rather have PD get the SOUNDS of an American car right before adding more. All of them sound like an exhaust from a 3800 ran threw a drain pipe, muffled by a vaccum cleaner, and then has Hewie Lewis and the News played over it...

Its like that for most of the cars in the GT series. PD sucks at recreating realistic sounds.

 

[Dave A]

The souds are actual recordings of the cars, the problem is that the PS2 can only do so much, PD has to record the all the different sounds the engine creates as a single sound (if that makes any sense), they have all the proper engine sounds recorded likely with all the different noises the engine is creating seperated, which the PS3 should be able to handle with ease. That's why GTR sounds so great, the noises of the engine are speerate noises played together rather than one sounds trying to cover all the noises as best as it can.

 

[Wolfe]

The souds are actual recordings of the cars, the problem is that the PS2 can only do so much, PD has to record the all the different sounds the engine creates as a single sound (if that makes any sense), they have all the proper engine sounds recorded likely with all the different noises the engine is creating seperated, which the PS3 should be able to handle with ease. That's why GTR sounds so great, the noises of the engine are speerate noises played together rather than one sounds trying to cover all the noises as best as it can.

Enthusia and the TOCA games still have better sounds, on the same console. I understand that GT4 has more cars than either game, but when you take out all of the repeat cars, there aren't that many more.

 

[Dave A]

I know, that's not the issue, the issue is the PS2's resources, GT4 eats a hell of a lot of them. And GT4 still has over 400 cars without any model variations.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

NFS Most Wanted put GT to shame on sound. Sorry, but saying "the PS2 can't make sounds right" is crap. car in NFS sound like the cars IRL. PD could do it, like they did with the Mustang, and a few, but they chose not to.

This thread was started on one of the stupidest premises I've seen to date. 7 pages, based on some M3 fanboy, who thinks no American car can beat it? when it's own company makes cars that can beat it, and he thinks it's top dog?
aside from M5's, there's probabley at least 5 cars coming out of Germany alone that'll beat it, with 10 more in America.
Viper
C5 Z06
C6
C6 Z06
Saleen S7
GT
CTS-V -(par)
ummm, theres probly more, but the top of my head has run dry....

 

[JCE]

I know, that's not the issue, the issue is the PS2's resources, GT4 eats a hell of a lot of them. And GT4 still has over 400 cars without any model variations.

*cough*XBOX>PS2*cough*FORZA>GT4*hack*

 

[Swift]

Wow, how did we get to Forza and GT4 from America Vs Euro/Japan?

 

[YSSMAN]

I know, that's not the issue, the issue is the PS2's resources, GT4 eats a hell of a lot of them. And GT4 still has over 400 cars without any model variations.

The thing is though, if I can get higher quality sounds and visuals with "only" 200 cars as opposed to 400, I'd still be happy. Project Gotham Racing III is a good example of that, each car driving differently, sounding completely unique, and even though there are less than 100 models, there is plenty of fun to go around.

...And JCE, I would say Forza was closer than GT4 with sounds, but they weren't dead-on with everything...

 

[Wolfe]

Wow, how did we get to Forza and GT4 from America Vs Euro/Japan?

Forza = Microsoft Game Studios
GT4 = Polyphony Digital

Microsoft Game Studios = Based in usa
Polyphony Digital = Based in Japan

Forza vs. GT4 = usa vs Japan

 

[Master_Yoda]

This server is not at all off topic...

 

[McLaren]

Thanks for the run-down wolf.

 

[YSSMAN]

It will be interesting to see how MSGS and Forza 2 rattles Sony/PD... I really can't say how far the bar will be raised, but it will be enough to make GT4 HD a joke with most people, even if you can race motorcycles against cars.

But even if Forza 2 remains a cult-hit, I won't be upset at all. If course, I would like to have "nice" folks play the game once in a while, as most of the a-holes on there are either what I like to call "Drift Douchebags" or just plain idiots.

 

[Poverty]

forza physics need alot of work though.

 

[Dave A]

The thing is though, if I can get higher quality sounds and visuals with "only" 200 cars as opposed to 400, I'd still be happy. Project Gotham Racing III is a good example of that, each car driving differently, sounding completely unique, and even though there are less than 100 models, there is plenty of fun to go around.

The number of cars in the game isn't the issue, a game with 2000 cars and 20 million tacks would not be issue, it's how much of the PS2's resources are being used during races, where you actually see the graphics , hear the sounds and feel the physics. GT4 takes up so much resources from the PS2 behind the scences with it's graphics engine and it's phyics engine it leaves little left for much else, a game like NFS:MW doesn't pull as much from the PS2 as GT4, so there's more work left in the PS2 to handle other things better such as sounds. The sounds get pulled off the disk and cached onto the RAM when the race is loading, GT4 dumps more onto the ram in terms of poly models, physics codes and so on that theres only so much they can do with other things, such as sound. By using the cars engine noises all in one sample they are taking up less space on the RAM than if they recorded all the different engine sounds seperately.

 

[Scaff]

It will be interesting to see how MSGS and Forza 2 rattles Sony/PD... I really can't say how far the bar will be raised, but it will be enough to make GT4 HD a joke with most people, even if you can race motorcycles against cars.

But even if Forza 2 remains a cult-hit, I won't be upset at all. If course, I would like to have "nice" folks play the game once in a while, as most of the a-holes on there are either what I like to call "Drift Douchebags" or just plain idiots.

To be totally fair here no one can say for sure that the next GT is going to be worse than the next Forza, or the other way around (GT4 HD is a mute point as it was no more than a technical demo).

Even if you look at the current generation, in terms of the physics model Forza is massively flawed in a lot of areas, far more than GT4 is.

For a first attempt Forza certainly has some nice touches (being able to turn off ABS is great), but it also contain one of the simple worse set of FWD physics known to gaming, with other drivetrains better recreated but still not good.

I'm hopeful that Forza 2 will move the game along, but as I bought my X-box just to play Forza I have to say that I was very dissapointed with the final result. Black and RSC2 spend more time on my X-box than Forza, for racing sims I'd rather look to GT4, EPR and RBR.

Regards

Scaff

 

[vectradriver]

I found that Forza managed to make the feel of driving more believable than GT4, like the way the car reacted over bumps, whereas you only really notice that in the replays or the SL500 with soggy rear tramping issues. I also preferred the way FWD cars handled because on tarmac even more inept cars still grip, GT has little concept of grip sometimes.

 

[Famine]

I found that Forza managed to make the feel of driving more believable than GT4, like the way the car reacted over bumps, whereas you only really notice that in the replays or the SL500 with soggy rear tramping issues. I also preferred the way FWD cars handled because on tarmac even more inept cars still grip, GT has little concept of grip sometimes.

Stock FWD cars in Forza will drift - and you can control that drift with power.

No further comment necessary.

 

[Scaff]

I found that Forza managed to make the feel of driving more believable than GT4, like the way the car reacted over bumps, whereas you only really notice that in the replays or the SL500 with soggy rear tramping issues. I also preferred the way FWD cars handled because on tarmac even more inept cars still grip, GT has little concept of grip sometimes.

Then I would suggest that you have little experience of actually driving a real car at or near the limit on a track.

Forza's handling physics, particularly FWD (as Famine has already said) are so far off the mark its hard to comprehend.

GT4's problem with FWD cars is not the level of grip on offer, but rather the effect of lifting the throttle, which is not pronounced enough. Open the throttle fully in a FWD car when you have steering applied and the front tyres will spin themselves in the real world, GT4 manages a decent recreation of this, do it in Forza and you oversteer!!!!!

Regards


Scaff

 

[Wolfe]

I agree with Scaff, Famine, and Poverty. Forza is way, way off the mark. As I said in another thread here at GTP:

Forza is already worse than GT4...the only thing GT5 would have to do to be better is match GT4 in realism.

I'll take GT4's "understeer, understeer, understeer, understeer, overst- spin!!" over Forza's "hey look at me I'm driving around with soggy milk cartons for tires! My car has no idea what's going on!".......any day of the week.

 

[Tornado]

Stock FWD cars in Forza will drift - and you can control that drift with power.
No further comment necessary.

A couple cars in GT4 will do the same thing.

 

[YSSMAN]

I found parts of Forza to be a bit more "believeable," particularly tire wear and fuel consumption, but I would agree that parts of the physics engine were indeed broken. When there are Honda Civic CRXSis out there whooping on Enzos and S7s, theres a problem with the game. That much power pumping through the wheels would pretty much make the streering-wheel ineffective, so thats an issue needing their attention.

Second of all, drifting is an odd on/off thing in the game. Obviously some people have it figured out, others do not. I might be easier to be doing it with a steering-wheel, but with the controler it is pretty much massive oversteer then spin.

 

[niky]

Stock FWD cars in Forza will drift - and you can control that drift with power.

No further comment necessary.

But Stock FWD cars with me at the wheel do the same thing... you obviously don't want to sit beside me when that happens though. Unfortunately, it only happens with worn rear tires, or on dirt.

But yeah, that is funny. Every time I start to mutter the "damn stupid understeer" mantra, I just go out for a spin in my car, thrash it about, and go back to GT4 and everything seems perfectly normal.

 

[Scaff]

A couple cars in GT4 will do the same thing.

I assume you are refering to the Ford RS and a few others (Alfa GT IIRC) in which the rear can step out slightly as you get on the power. Which I have always put down (in the case of the RS) to the diff sorting the power out to the front wheels, and the back stepping out when its unsettled.

Is it 100% right, probably not, but at least its not every FWD car unlike Forza.

Regards

Scaff

 

[vectradriver]

Regardless of Forza's problems, it is more fun that GT on GT's default setting. Even then, some cars are still terrible with the driving aids off. I think what skews the perception of the cars in GT4 is that you think why is it (powerful RWD) understeering when you don't seem to be going very fast, but the speedo is actually up near 100mph or more. The element of speed is sorely lacking in GT4.

 

[Famine]

Ping a Formula GT down Deep Forest and tell me that.

The problem - or at least part of it - is that tracks are wide. Wide roads make you think you're going slower than you actually are. Drive at 75mph down a motorway... no problem. Drive at 75mph down a single-width country lane (with stopping places), and the world turns brown.

 

[Dave A]

Famine is as always (almost), correct. I think the speed in GT4 is quite accurate, but like he said, most of the tracks as wider than the average street.