An Observation on GT Academy From a Real World Racer

88c-v Racer

88c-v Racer

211
GTP_88c-v_Racer
I looked and did not see a similar thread.

Before you read this let me give some background on me. I have 5 years of racing experience in a Legend Car, I have won Rookie of The Year and a state points championship (also top 10 in national points) as well as finishing 8th at Nationals. I autocross my FR-S regularly and have also tested a Ferrari F430 GT2 car. So I at least like to think I know what I'm talking about with racing.

I have an observation/complaint/nitpicking/thing about GT Academy. Having participated in all of them (that were available to N. America) in GT5, the pre GT6, and the current one, I've always been around 0.5 seconds off the #1 time. I look at the #1 replay to see how I could go faster but what bothers me is that the technique used to get the #1 time would most likely either result in a crash/going off or actually be slower in the real world with a real car. Hitting your marks and driving smooth does not result in a #1 time or anywhere near it, but chucking the car around and drifting most corners (basically just exploiting the physics engine) does? That just doesn't sit right with me, and I've heard similar sentiments from some fellow racers.

I've watching some of the GT Academy products in action in the real world (via tv, youtube, etc.) and they share the common trait of being fast but not the smoothest (which can improve with more seat time). I'm not campaigning for me to be picked the next GT Academy driver, however I do think some very good, smooth drivers are getting overlooked because of what I explained above.

I'm not sure if others agree or this is just me being a typical racecar driver that if someone somehow has an advantage it's cheating/unfair. I'm sorry if it sounds like a rant, I don't mean it to be, I'm trying to give my perspective on the matter and I'd like to hear from the community what they think about it too.
 
Couldn't agree more :) But it's not these drivers fault, they are trying to win. IMO, PD should have banned all aids ( all OFF ) on GT Academy trials, and put tire wear on very fast. That way, drivers can't abuse the tires, push gas or brake too hard, and it will have consequences. They also need to put realistic tune, correct weight distribution, real world alignment and lower grip tires on the Academy TT cars - the Z34 at Apricot Hill for example should have comfort medium if they wanted a street car on stock factory tire from real life, so they drive more realistically.
 
I should hope they're trying to win haha, and to be fair they do it with the aids off. GT Academy right now is good for finding the best gamers but I'm not sure taking away grip is the answer to find the best drivers. Not sure how it could be done in a game but it's missing that knife edge that exists when driving a car at the limit. Even the most forgiving car/tires combo will snap on you real quick when you cross that edge. I didn't think of it 'til just now but the concise way to say what I'm thinking is the top times exist on the other side of the real world edge.

I liked the Z34's setup, I don't mind it being tuned above stock. Realistic tire wear is a great idea because the Comfort tires on the Leaf and the Z would be shredded the way those top gamers drive them. Also some brake fade from trail-braking every corner like they do would help.
 
Well, hopefully saying this will save a few pages of arguments, but it really is all about adaptability. The best guys can adapt to each situation, drive unrealistically in the game but then respect proper technique once in the real thing and be effective.

There's also guys who can only do one or the other. It's sad to see as you said because it's a fact that really capable drivers in real life have been overlooked because they lack the ability to change good real life driving habits that are engrained into them over thousands of hours of practice.

It's as if you were an amazing baseball pitcher and got a chance to try out for a major league team but they made a condition that you can only try out by pitching with your opposite hand.

I think this situation is a little similar to what you've got going on in mixed martial arts. You need to be well rounded in order to be able to fight MMA. In GT A, those are the guys who are good both in the game and in real life. Only having one is like being the best Jiu Jitsu grappler but having no striking ability, or being the best kickboxer but having no chance when the fight goes to the ground - you need both and if you aren't willing to work on your weakness and get past the inhibition, this isn't for you.
 
88c-v Racer i think you're right ....all of no real life race drivers and top "gamers" will desagree this... but your words are really what i feel from this new academy....in gt5 smoothest driving gave you results
 
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I actually genuinely believe that if I was placed in a race seat this weekend (nothing huge, like an amatuer race in SCCA), with some time wih the car and the track, I could hang in the top 10.

I drive the same way in GT6 as I would for real.
 
Azure Flare
I actually genuinely believe that if I was placed in a race seat this weekend (nothing huge, like an amatuer race in SCCA), with some time wih the car and the track, I could hang in the top 10.

I drive the same way in GT6 as I would for real.
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I would agree here to a point, I think once you fiddle around in the car a bit say of a skidpad learning its traction thresholds along with how the car reacts you would definitely put up a good fight in an amateur race, hell even give some guys with experience a good run for their money.
 
Wardez
it really is all about adaptability. The best guys can adapt to each situation, drive unrealistically in the game but then respect proper technique once in the real thing and be effective.

There's also guys who can only do one or the other. It's sad to see as you said because it's a fact that really capable drivers in real life have been overlooked because they lack the ability to change good real life driving habits that are engrained into them over thousands of hours of practice.
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Completely agree with that ^

I guess it just frustrates me that, for me and others, those thousands of laps of real world expertise kind of go for naught in something where that racing experience should matter most. I mean I'd bet money I could beat Lionel Messi in FIFA but he's infinitely better on a real soccer pitch
 
its not the right comparsion (fifa -gt) but i know what you mean... but i think gamers like the first ten top player have incredible fast reflexes (quick on the draw) and i think with practise in real life they should be very good pilots in real tracks
 
88c-v Racer
I should hope they're trying to win haha, and to be fair they do it with the aids off. GT Academy right now is good for finding the best gamers but I'm not sure taking away grip is the answer to find the best drivers. Not sure how it could be done in a game but it's missing that knife edge that exists when driving a car at the limit. Even the most forgiving car/tires combo will snap on you real quick when you cross that edge. I didn't think of it 'til just now but the concise way to say what I'm thinking is the top times exist on the other side of the real world edge.

I liked the Z34's setup, I don't mind it being tuned above stock. Realistic tire wear is a great idea because the Comfort tires on the Leaf and the Z would be shredded the way those top gamers drive them. Also some brake fade from trail-braking every corner like they do would help.
Click to expand...

Regarding setup, here is an example of stock power/weight car with real world setup :
ACURA NSX '91 Replica ( Real World Setup version )
Ayrton Senna Tribute
Special Build with Real World Alignment ACURA NSX '91
Comfort Hard to Sports Medium​




CAR : ACURA NSX '91
Tire : Comfort Hard to Sports Medium

Specs
Horsepower:266 HP at 7000 RPM
Torque: 209.7 ft-lb at 5500 RPM
Power Limiter at : 100%
Weight: 1365 kg
Ballast : 123 kg
Ballast Position : 46
Weight Distribution : 42 / 58 as in real life
Performance Points: 433

GT AUTO
NO Oil change
Wheels : Stock
Car Paint : Brilliant Black


Tuning Parts Installed :
Suspension Fully Customizable Kit
Adjustable LSD
Weight Reduction Stage 1



Suspension - KW Variant 3 with ClubSport Springs / Lowered and Street Damper Setup
Front, Rear

Ride Height: 85 80
Spring Rate: 8.00 8.00
Dampers (Compression): 3 2
Dampers (Extension): 4 3
Anti-Roll Bars: 3 2
Camber Angle: 0.3 1.5 ( front camber range 0.3+-0.5, rear camber range 1.5+-0.5 )
Toe Angle: -0.30 0.49 ( front toe out 3.5mm+-1mm, rear toe in 6mm+-1mm )


LSD - Torque Control Differential with factory preload
Initial Torque : 30
Acceleration Sensitivity: 30
Braking Sensitivity: 15





Brake Balance:
7/9 ( personal BB) or for ABS 0 wheel : 7/9, for ABS 1 7/9 or feel free to use your preferred brake balance.

Recommended setting for DS3 user :
Steering sensitivity at +1 or +2, all aids off, except ABS 1 ( if not comfortable with ABS 0 ) with 7/9 brake balance as starting point.


Notes :
I made this special replica to commemorate Ayrton Senna :)
This time, the car is ACURA NSX '91, the 1st generation ACURA :)

The car setup is not your typical GT6 tune, I used real world setup alignment, similar to some of my older replica like ADVOX Supra :)

Suspension uses KW V3 ClubSport Coilover Kit as the stock real life value can't be replicated in GT6, ride height can be lowered 20 to 50mm on the front and 25mm to 55mm at the rear. Damper has been tuned for street. The ARB, Toe and Camber are all based on real life setup of a stock Honda/Acura NSX.

Most people do not know that later generation NSX has lower spring rate at the rear to give more grip and less oversteer. Most coilover kits uses the same arrangement, while KW V3 uses same spring rate. Obviously the real world spring rate works great in GT6.

Real life specs : front camber range 0.3+-0.5, rear camber range 1.5+-0.5; and front toe out 3.5mm+-1mm, rear toe in 6mm+-1mm.

The LSD has been updated using real world setup, Honda Torque Control Differential has high preload.

The weight distribution on the NSX is wrong in GT6, real life NSX has 42/58, so to achieve that, I used some ballast and weight reduction.

Don't expect this car to be quick, it's meant to be a what if the car has real world stock setup in GT6, something that never existed in GT6 :lol:

To drive the NSX, you will need some real world driving approach, steer like you would in a real car, brake and gas like you would in your own car on the road :P

I tuned and tested the car at Ascari, Bathurst, Spa, Laguna Seca, Streets of Willow and Tsukuba.

To test if the GT6 car is close to real world performance, I replicated the lap times posted by Acura NSX at Laguna Seca and Streets of Willow. The 3.2 ACURA NSX 2004 - 286HP/1424+kg ( only data I could find ) posted 1:32.59 at Streets of Willow Springs and 1:54.74 at Mazda Laguna Seca Raceway. The '91 3.0 Acura NSX ( 266HP/1365kg ) can get close/beat the time with comfort hard :eek:, the real ACURA NSX '91 comes from factory with Yokohama A-022, so it's comparable to CH tire in GT6. I posted 1:32.1xx at Streets of Willow Springs and 1:54.8xx at Laguna Seca on 1st warm up lap ( with H shifter and clutch, it would be better )

The car is a joy to drive, feels like what a real stock NSX would drive :) It made GT6 ACURA NSX more sim like, well almost like on PC, not so easy to throw around :lol:

UPDATE : New Coilover set as the real stock spring rate is not available to be replicated.

ENJOY :cheers:


Click to expand...

or this, the tune of the week ( stock power and weight ) :

Ridox2JZGTE
Honda NSX Type R '92 ( Real World Setup version )
Ayrton Senna Tribute
Special Build with Real World Alignment Honda NSX Type R '92
Comfort Soft to Sports Medium​




CAR : Honda NSX Type R '92
Tire : Comfort Soft to Sports Medium

Specs
Horsepower:284 HP at 7000 RPM
Torque: 225.6 ft-lb at 5500 RPM
Power Limiter at : 100%
Weight: 1230 kg
Ballast : 136 kg
Ballast Position : 39
Weight Distribution : 42 / 58 as in real life
Performance Points: 463

GT AUTO
NO Oil change
Wheels : Stock
Car Paint : Milano Red


Tuning Parts Installed :
Suspension Fully Customizable Kit
Adjustable LSD
Weight Reduction Stage 2



Suspension - BC Racing Coilover Kit Lowered with Real World Alignment and Damper Setup
Front, Rear

Ride Height: 95 95
Spring Rate: 10.00 8.00
Dampers (Compression): 5 4
Dampers (Extension): 6 4
Anti-Roll Bars: 3 2
Camber Angle: 0.3 1.5 ( front camber range 0.3+-0.5, rear camber range 1.5+-0.5 )
Toe Angle: -0.30 0.49 ( front toe out 3.5mm+-1mm, rear toe in 6mm+-1mm )


LSD -Honda Torque Control Differential with factory preload
Initial Torque : 30
Acceleration Sensitivity: 30
Braking Sensitivity: 15





Brake Balance:
6/5 ( personal BB) or for ABS 0 wheel : 6/5, for ABS 1 6/5 or feel free to use your preferred brake balance.

Recommended setting for DS3 user :
Steering sensitivity at +1 or +2, all aids off, except ABS 1 ( if not comfortable with ABS 0 ) with 6/5 brake balance as starting point.


Notes :
I made this special tune to commemorate Ayrton Senna :)
This time, the car is Honda NSX Type R '92, the 1st generation of Type R Honda :)

The car setup is not your typical GT6 tune, I used real world setup alignment, similar to some of my older replica like ADVOX Supra :)

Suspension has been changed with BC Racing Coilover, 10/8 springs and a well tuned damper for road and track complement the springs. The ARB, Toe and Camber are all based on real life setup of a stock Honda NSX Type R.

Most people do not know that later generation NSX has lower spring rate at the rear to give more grip and less oversteer. Most coilover kits uses the same arrangement, while KW V3 uses same spring rate. Obviously the real world spring rate works great in GT6.

Real life specs : front camber range 0.3+-0.5, rear camber range 1.5+-0.5; and front toe out 3.5mm+-1mm, rear toe in 6mm+-1mm.

The LSD has been updated using real world setup, Honda Torque Control Differential has high preload.

The weight distribution on the NSX is wrong in GT6, real life NSX has 42/58, so to achieve that, I used some ballast and weight reduction.

Don't expect this car to be quick, it's meant to be a what if the car has real world stock setup in GT6, something that never existed in GT6 :lol:

To drive the NSX, you will need some real world driving approach, steer like you would in a real car, brake and gas like you would in your own car on the road :P

I tuned and tested the car at Ascari, Bathurst, Spa and Tsukuba.

It posted flat 1:06 at Tsukuba on a warm up lap using comfort soft :eek:

The car is a joy to drive, feels like what a real stock NSX would drive :) It made GT6 Honda NSX more sim like, well almost like on PC :lol:

UPDATE : New BC Racing Coilover kit and updated LSD to replicate real life setup.

ENJOY :cheers:


Click to expand...


Now, drive the Acura NSX, imagine if the GT Academy uses the Acura above at Street of Willow or Laguna Seca on comfort hard tire and tire wear on fast or very fast :) Drivers will have to use real world technique :P Sorry if I went off topic with these 2 replica tunes, but they should give you rough idea what sort of car that I wished GTA would use ( tune and tire wise )
 
Ridox2JZGTE
Regarding setup, here is an example of stock power/weight car with real world setup :


or this, the tune of the week ( stock power and weight ) :




Now, drive the Acura NSX, imagine if the GT Academy uses the Acura above at Street of Willow or Laguna Seca on comfort hard tire and tire wear on fast or very fast :) Drivers will have to use real world technique :P Sorry if I went off topic with these 2 replica tunes, but they should give you rough idea what sort of car that I wished GTA would use ( tune and tire wise )
Click to expand...

Agreed!

This is a game and its not 100 percent real! It's based on the competitiveness and if you watched one of the US GT Academy shows the judges spoke about how the Finalist trashed the tires of a 370z in just a few laps, With that said if I have to pretend to race on a Sub par simulator to get the the real thing then so be it.:cheers:. :gtpflag:
 
Generally the smoothest driving is fastest in GT. Here is onboard of fastest lap in last GT Academy GT5 TT:



It is up to PD to improve physics engine, pecking order will likely remain similar to what it is now regarding drivers.
 
88c-v Racer
That's not as bad as in GT6 but look at the heat in the tires in some of the corners as well as I still see a lot of throwing the car at the corners, a lot of overdriving going unpunished
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In GT6 I think you will see similar kind of driving to get fastest in final round. Tyres go red on a few corners for a very small amount of time, key is to lean on tyres as much as possible without overdoing it and hitting the apex just right. If there was overdriving going on, he would lose the rear more and it would be slower, he is just on the limit and not beyond - smooth and precise.
 
i agree with this observation. if you apply what you learned in GT to the real life, you will be abusing the car and over driving it, making you not suitable to drive sprint races nor endurance races, and so you will not be liked by teams or other drivers possible - because you're too dangerous- . by contrast, if you apply what you learned in real life to GT, you will not be one of the fastest gamers who rank highly in this game.

however, and to be fair, the GT physics engine is a very good one, and it reproduces the real physics in a very good way, and i think it is obvious that people push the cars to the maximum in games because there is nothing to lose - one's life or money to repair damages or both - .

i think if one has so much passion for motorsport, he will push to the limit and exploit the rules to the maximum, whether he drives a car in the virtual world created by PD or others, or he drives a car in the real world created by god, he will adapt.
 
I think the only thing that the GT A is actually good for - compared to real racing - is hand/eye coordination. Possibly to learn a layout of a circuit aswell, but not much else. Well, racing lines and basic cornering techniques, surely.

I think the reason they forbid racingdrivers to compete at the GT A camps, is that you can't fill a full cup.
 
Some of the professionals that went on GT6 demo at the European boot camp adapted quite quickly to being more aggressive and things like that! I think some of the problem is the fact the real world racers don't have the feel of the pants where as the virtual racers can visually see something happening and react to it better.

Manipulating certain things though to go faster is just car control/technique even if it's extreme it should still be possible to do what you need to do to get the times!
 
GT5 was just as bad as GT6, both had the "chuck it in" = go fast problem. Nothing in GT6 short of a new physics engine better than EVERY simulator I have ever tried can could fix it. Assetto Corsa, a game many people say is the most "realistic" can be driven GT6 style and get a very fast time. In iRacing you can curb hop all day long, just fine.

GT6 with ABS OFF= Sill can do it.
GT6 with CM or CH = Still can do it.
GT6 with tire wear set fastest = Only need one lap, not sure how this would help anything.
GT6 with a "replica" tune = GT6 tuning is messed so it's impossible to make real replica. Even if you could, same physics engine so the problem wouldn't go away.

Everytime I see this point made I think of the same thing: This guy is really good in real life with that car thanks to pratice / seat time. Why on earth would he be one of the best in a game he mostly likely has nowhere near the level of practice or seat time in?

The guys at the top have invested the time to get good at GT6, just like they would need to do in real life. Some of them are very good at both. GT6 / GT5 / iRacing / Real Life, all take practice to get good.

EDIT: One more thing, more than few of the "I'm great in real life" only think they are great in real life because they have never raced outside of a local "hobby" level ( Not talking about 88c-v ).

@88c-v Racer , Imaging you jumped in a dirt sprint car ( World of Outlaws ) or any car you haven't driven, would you finish in the top 15 in points at a national level on the first year out, keeping your current driving style? I would think no. If you haven't raced on dirt before you would need to completely change your driving style. Think of simulators like that, you're in a new world ( like it or not ) and competing against the best in the nation ( or world ).
 
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carracerptp
GT5 was just as bad as GT6, both had the "chuck it in" = go fast problem. Nothing in GT6 short of a new physics engine better than EVERY simulator I have ever tried can could fix it. Assetto Corsa, a game many people say is the most "realistic" can be driven GT6 style and get a very fast time. In iRacing you can curb hop all day long, just fine.

GT6 with ABS = Sill can do it.
GT6 with CM or CH = Still can do it.
GT6 with tire wear set fastest = Only need one lap, not sure how this would help anything.
GT6 with a "replica" tune = GT6 tuning is messed so it's impossible to make real replica. Even if you could, same physics engine so the problem wouldn't go away.
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There's a real replica :confused:, never knew that existed ... I only know to make the closest possible car to the target goal, so I must be making fake replica all this time :lol: Seriously, driving and creating a replica is different than driving ordinary tune set for quickest lap time or racing.

Have you tried driving a replica with no ABS, on CH tire, set tire wear on very fast and aim for quickest lap time, maybe try the Acura NSX I posted above at Laguna Seca or even better Streets of Willow and beat the real life time by a couple of seconds, I am sure it's doable when the "chuck it in" = go fast problem still there ... still not sure what that means :P

I am certain, the way of TT driving won't work well with the Acura NSX replica at Streets of Willow or Laguna Seca.
 
carracerptp
@88c-v Racer Imagine you jumped in a dirt sprint car ( World of Outlaws ) or any car you haven't driven, would you finish in the top 15 in points at a national level on the first year out, keeping your current driving style? I would think no. If you haven't raced on dirt before you would need to completely change your driving style. Think of simulators like that, you're in a new world ( like it or not ) and competing against the best in the nation ( or world ).
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Dirt would be a fun challenge, but you're right that I'd have to adapt how I drive. And "in a new world" a good way to think of it. I suppose the root of all this is my hyper competitive side wanting to be the fastest at all things racing in the history of the universe.

If I'm honest I have a similar problem with autocross, in that I'm not fastest (close but about a tenth off) because I try to be smooth and not just toss the car around.
 
88c-v Racer
Completely agree with that ^

I guess it just frustrates me that, for me and others, those thousands of laps of real world expertise kind of go for naught in something where that racing experience should matter most. I mean I'd bet money I could beat Lionel Messi in FIFA but he's infinitely better on a real soccer pitch
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Just remember that this is a MUCH cheaper way of finding fast real life drivers vs. taking everyone who wants to try out and putting them all in real cars.
Like Wardez said, GT academy really is all about adaptability. The very fastest GT guys can adapt very quickly to a new car/track combo and figure out how to go fast with the physics presented to them. They then can get in a real car and adapt very quickly and figure out how to go fast with the physics presented to them.

On the upside with each generation of GT the physics seem to be getting more realistic.
 
Being fast in GT still requires smoothness and precision, what you have to accept is that pretty much all sims require a high degree of slip angle to be fast. Whereas in the real world slip angle has to be minimal and is very tire/surface dependent. I recently autocrossed a BRZ on StarSpec ZII's and driving the way that is fast in my Miata on Kumho Ecsta XS's was NOT fast on the ZII's. My Kumhos eat up slip angle, the ZII's had a VERY noticeable drop off as soon as you crossed that knifes edge on slip angle. My fastest run (and fastest run of the day in that class) felt like a Sunday drive. That's why 'feeling fast' and 'being fast' are two different things in the real world. That actually applies to GT too though, there's a fine line between managing slip angle and drifting and that difference is where your half second lies.

If being fast in game was detrimental to real world driving, then we wouldn't have GT Academy champs like Bryan who is a multiple time national autocross champion and has taken multiple pole positions in the Continental Tire SportsCar Challenege.

I have no such credit, nor did I win GT Academy, but other than a short transitional phase of learning to apply my sim racing to the real world I learned to drive fast in games like Forza - GT - iRacing. Some autocrossing and my one experience tracking (GT Academy) have shown I can hold my own despite minimal real world exposure.

It's all about adaptability, as Wardez said.
 
88c-v Racer
I have an observation/complaint/nitpicking/thing about GT Academy. Having participated in all of them (that were available to N. America) in GT5, the pre GT6, and the current one, I've always been around 0.5 seconds off the #1 time.
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I don't see you on the leaderboard as being .5 behind the #1 time in event 2. If you are .5 back then I'd say you are doing just fine.


Jerome
 
TRC Scooty
If being fast in game was detrimental to real world driving, then we wouldn't have GT Academy champs like Bryan who is a multiple time national autocross champion and has taken multiple pole positions in the Continental Tire SportsCar Challenege.

I have no such credit, nor did I win GT Academy, but other than a short transitional phase of learning to apply my sim racing to the real world I learned to drive fast in games like Forza - GT - iRacing. Some autocrossing and my one experience tracking (GT Academy) have shown I can hold my own despite minimal real world exposure.

It's all about adaptability, as Wardez said.
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I'm not saying that the ones that are fast in GT6 are useless in the real world, I give credit where credit is due they are better than me at GT6 and that could translate to real racing. I am able to adapt to GT6, just not enough to override my driving habits. I did pick up a second with the Leaf at Brands by analyzing the top time replay and loading the ghost car.

Also, I run 255/40/R17 Direzza StarSpec ZI on my FR-S and I tried to drive like I would on a track and it was a clean and smooth run but about 3 seconds off the pace of the leading RX-8 (which is mad hax bro on 285's in CSR but I digress)
 
Jump_Ace
I don't see you on the leaderboard as being .5 behind the #1 time in event 2. If you are .5 back then I'd say you are doing just fine.


Jerome
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I'm not haha, I've only done a few laps with the Z and they were pretty bad because it was 1 am. I need to give it another go. I was .700 off quick time with the Leaf last night.
 
I'm sure you're absolutely correct about the fastest way in GT6 not being the fastest way in real life but..

The Academy is a marketing device to find the best gamers and give them a chance in a real car, giving all who purchase the game a chance to try their hand. More sales of the game is the aim, not finding the next world champion. If they just wanted to find the best drivers they would look at real life amateur and semi-pro leagues.

The people who are fastest in GT6 are there because they can adapt their style quickly to suit what they are given. They exploit any deficiencies in the game to their advantage. They don't care if they shred the tyres in one lap because every lap is a qualifying lap and they are not paying for the tyres. If they can't adapt quickly to driving for real when they get through to the finals they won't last long. Some of the top gamers are also pretty successful driving karts and lower formula cars too. I expect they know how to look after their tyres and drive smoothly when necessary.

I'm sure we'd all like it if GT6 were more realistic and rewarded smooth driving but it that's not how it is. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
 

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