Another 2 years?!?!

[adam46]

If they told us what they were doing we would have been more paitent.

 

[BestCaliPlayer]

Well with 5-6 yrs of development & you get a product that's a 7.2/10 (My Rating BTW)? 2 more years is nothin much more I can assure.

 

[Rdp616]

It's very simple, Sony wanted them to put it out to get sales up. This has been known for awhile, i'm not surprised by the "2 more years". That's not including pressure from us, wich i sort of regret now (lesson learned for the next one)

I could care less about engine swaps or liveries to be honest. The whole engine swap thing is wayyyyy overrated. If you want Forza go play Forza. Simple as that. I'd rather not have everyone and there cousin running around in V-10 Skylines or V8 S15's.

As far as Liveries go, we will never see them, not in GT5 anyway. If anything give me more wheels. Let's be honest here, You don't have abunch of stickers and numbers on your daily driver do you? I know people want it for there "race cars" but at then end of the day it doesn't make you faster. And if you feel like you need to stand out that bad, paint your car hot pink.

I've said it time and time again, there are MUCH MORE important things that need to be addressed in this game, other than a livery editor and engine swaps...👎

 

[ItsHim]

shadows still the same, ask Digital Foundry.
G25 always worked
Vettel times lowered and licences lowered? Well it's just a small water drop on a hot stone, considering the fact that A-Spec is close to a disaster compared to GT3 and GT4. And honestly, Vettel times... I'm really more concerned about the strange damage model, lack of Premiums, lack of tracks, lack of events, mediocre online menu, lack of creativity throug out the whole presentation etc. etc. etc.

Shadows have most certainly improved since the original retail version, though they are not that pretty. To activate the clutch you had to press triangle before the race started with the G25. You'll find the G25 isn't oficially supported yet they improved support since GT5p.

PD is addressing feedback. Easier challenges, easier AI, huge CR payouts in the seasonals earlier this year. They experiment a lot with the seasonals in fact.

Now I don't like the way they make the game easier but if it's not because of consumer feedback, why should they change the original formula?

There's a virtual unlimmited number of tracks if you care to use the track creator. Lamborghini and Ferrari are all premiums - the total number of premiums is in fact higher than Shift2.

It's a shame you are not happy with the game but PD not listening to feedback is simply not true.

 

[DTS]

shadows still the same, ask Digital Foundry.
G25 always worked
Vettel times lowered and licences lowered? Well it's just a small water drop on a hot stone, considering the fact that A-Spec is close to a disaster compared to GT3 and GT4. And honestly, Vettel times... I'm really more concerned about the strange damage model, lack of Premiums, lack of tracks, lack of events, mediocre online menu, lack of creativity throug out the whole presentation etc. etc. etc.

You must be new to GT5. 👎

Do some research before you state what you believe to be facts.

 

[Devedander]

When I said that I was thinking in general about anything that consumers purchase. Every product made is not for everyone. For instance Shift 2 is not for everyone. Without playing it but reading about it, the game did pretty well but from what I have heard the AI sucks so that might not please you (hence everyone).

I know GT5 has some (lots) drawbacks but it is a great game and I love playing it but it might not be for you or the next guy or there might be a lot of shortcomings.



Sorry but that is not or no where near the same.

Actually it's pretty much exactly the same... you are taking a situation that could arguably be much better and excusing it entirely by pointing out that it couldn't ever be perfect.

The obivous flaw in the logic being that the most of the problems in GT5 make the majority of people unhappy. So fixing them, while not making everyone happy, would make most people happy while being broken does not make most people happy.

Making everyone happy is irrelevant, the relevant issue is, are these legit problems that would improve the experience for the many if fixed.

And the answer is almot always yes.

Yup. FIA GT championships and the GT1/3 cars are one of things that made me buy Shift 2.

Anyway, it does show that GT5 needed at least another two years, lack of events, premiums, etc. etc.

BTW, I noticed there is a Shift 2 rant thread but there is not a GT5 rant thread. I think that this is being slightly based towards GT5(we all know it has its niggles) and if there was it would stop people making a lot of complaint threads and therefore keeping the forums a bit...cleaner, I guess you could say?

When the first GT5 delay was announced (the unofficial one) the line was "We have waited years, I will gladly wait another for perfection" then the official delay "We waited this long, perfection can't be rushed".

Now we sit looking at a ludicrous suggestion of 2 more years and people still haven't learned... we see yet MORE people saying "it would be worth it to wait 2 more years". People... do you not get it? There is no such thing as enough years... the way Kaz works the world eveolves faster than he can accomplish things... in 2 years he would have what would be oustanding now but only par or sub par for then and he would need 2 more years...

A turtle will not win a marathon if you just make the marathon longer...

BTW there is very much a GT5 rant thread... not sure how you missed it... the Shift 2 rant thread was pretty much a play on the GT5 one named "who else is dissapointed in GT5".

The irony is that the GT5 fans demanded no one could judge GT5 until it was out and we had final code to play (which instantly became a rationlization that we can't judge now because patches could make it better so it's not really final code yet) but then started the shift rant before shift launched as a sort of spite towards shift.

The GT5 fanbase is often quick to point out the trolling of the opposing fanbases, but the house is glass and thin at that.

It's very simple, Sony wanted them to put it out to get sales up. This has been known for awhile, i'm not surprised by the "2 more years". That's not including pressure from us, wich i sort of regret now (lesson learned for the next one)

You are looking at the cause of the symtom, not the caues of the problem. Sure it's possible Sony got tired of waiting and demanded a release, but the real problem is how kaz works and the fact that it means he pretty much never completes a project.

My friend had his kitchen remodeled but fired the contractor half way through.

You could look at his kitchen and say "it's simple, it's in shambles becaue he fired the contractor" but in reality the contractor was over budget, behind schedule and was producing more excuses than results Ultimately it was obvious it was a losing situation...

So what's the real answer as to why the kitchen is in shambles... hint, it's not that he fired the conntractor...

As far as Liveries go, we will never see them, not in GT5 anyway. If anything give me more wheels. Let's be honest here, You don't have abunch of stickers and numbers on your daily driver do you?

Ummm... I believe if you ask the group of people who actually race their daily drivers or race their cars in general (you know, what you are doing in GT5) you will find the answer is a yes to a fairly large percentage...

And I don't take my cars to multiple countries and spend hours taking glamour shots of it either... are you going to argue photomode shouldn't be there?

 

[Hubble83]

Very well said Devedander.

 

[Claybird]

I'm happy, its better than GT4 and 3 for me.

 

[shurnster]

GT5 isn't built off of Gt4's engine. I guess that's what the community was expecting. The game has been developed from scratch from ground up. You cannot expect perfection with their first title being on the ps3 especially with a brand new engine. Of course there's going to be bugs, glitches, online lags etc. It's just really sad that PD has been only getting sometimes 3 hours of sleep to release this title.

The only reason they released GT5 was because of Sony and the community. It was over hyped. That's Sony and the community's fault. The community asked for damages, day/night, weather. We got what we asked for and there's still complaining. The community was complaining about the release. Sony wanted the game to be released to increase ps3 sales. So PD had no choice but to rush through the title. The only thing I think was wrong was the standard/premium issue. Previous articles were stating that there was going to be 1000 car with interior views. And I know people who bought this game wasn't expecting %70 cars with no interiors.

There were some features that was taken out of GT5 because they didn't have enough time. The FIA GT and DTM was one of the reasons why it had to be taken out. We all seen the Stig at the e3 video. That feature was also taken out. Remember GT psp was in development at the same time. Both games were being developed at the same time. Kaz apologized at the Tokyo Game Show stating there were so many features he wanted into the title but couldn't. That's why GT6 is already being developed. Everybody needs to stop blaming Kaz.

Kaz and his team achieved much with GT5. I've spent over 400 bucks for the title. I bought a steering wheel, wheel stand, and a collectors edition. That was the best experience for me. I am a proud customer.

 

[zqxwjv]

I've spent over 400 bucks for the title. I bought a steering wheel, wheel stand, and a collectors edition.

800 bucks here: PS3 + Collector's Edition + Steering Wheel + Pedals + etc.

I think ive gotten 800 bucks worth of fun out it, i.e., its been worth it.

 

[Devedander]

GT5 isn't built off of Gt4's engine. I guess that's what the community was expecting. The game has been developed from scratch from ground up. You cannot expect perfection with their first title being on the ps3 especially with a brand new engine. Of course there's going to be bugs, glitches, online lags etc. It's just really sad that PD has been only getting sometimes 3 hours of sleep to release this title.

Correction, GT5's game engine was reportedly built from the ground up but much of the assets are recycled/imported. It's not built fom the ground up.

That said, it's interesting you would use it as an excuse for it's flaws because usually the line is that you have to excuse a games flaws because those were in the engine from before and in order to fix them you would have to write the game from scratch...

Seems that it's conveniently a flip flop rationalization...

I personally see more logic in saying "that's just a refined (previous version) engine so suffers some of the same problems" than saying "these problems should be excused because they went back to the boards to do it right from scratch".

Kind of defeats the purpose of doing it from the ground up doesn't it?

And PD getting only 3 hours sleep? You say that as if PD is a raggedy puppy on the side of the road or something that deserves our pitty... PD is a company and in the game dev world EVERY team runs a few weeks/months of virtually no sleep coming up to launch. It's how it works in the industry, the reason being they need to make sure they put out a finished and reasonably sound product... seems PD needed to cut that back to 2 hours or less maybe?

The only reason they released GT5 was because of Sony and the community.

You say that as if Sony and the community didn't have a legit point somehow... this is the world of sales and products where you are expected to deliver a product in a reasonable time...

So when PD has 5-6 years since GT4 and Sony say "come on guys! 🤬 or get off the pot!" you blame that on Sony or the community?

Boy your boss must hate you... "Shurnster, I gave you 6 months to do a 3 month project, I am tired of your excuses, you better have something by next week"

Shurnster: Wow! What an unreasonable idiot! Making me do stuff like it's expected of me or something!

It was over hyped.

Considering Kaz is a VP at Sony and much of the hype came directly from his mouth I hope you aren't rationalizing that as someone elses fault too...

That's Sony and the community's fault.

Oh you are.

Can I ask, when you see a mugging going down, do you blame the guy getting mugged too?

The community asked for damages, day/night, weather.

The community asked for damage because it was embarassingly bad for a simluator to have such obviously implausible results from collisions (which are a very real and very large part of racing). That and it was pretty much the industry standard to have damage - some games even having noteably impresive damage models.

Weather and night/day were mentioned I am sure but that was more a PD hyped it and the hype worked thing than anything else

We got what we asked for and there's still complaining.

Really? We asked for weird melty plastic damage on most cars with the most damage coming in the form of having to ram a car into a wall longer than any non endurance race lasts to show significant damage? Because that's not what I asked for..

We asked for weather and time change on a small handful of tracks at a heavy hit to framerate?

You explain that away as if getting something broken isn't ok to complain about just because you asked for that general thing...

I feel like such an idiot for complaining about that burned steak at the restaraunt... I mean I ASKED for a steak! Who am I to complain when it comes (prepared all wrong).

The community was complaining about the release. Sony wanted the game to be released to increase ps3 sales. So PD had no choice but to rush through the title.

Sony wanted a launch title...

And PD had to rush through the relase 6 years after GT4? What?

And I know people who bought this game wasn't expecting %70 cars with no interiors.

Or damage, or paintable wheels, or phototravel option or swappable rims, or aero mods... yeah that list goes on and on.

There were some features that was taken out of GT5 because they didn't have enough time.

You know when you take 2-3 times longer than anyone else to make the next iteration of a game you have already made 4 of, I don't see how anyone can reasonably say they didn't have a enough time. Bad decisions that make a reasonable time table unachievable? Maybe... but that's not the same as not having enough time... that's bad decisions and squandering more than reasonable time.

The FIA GT and DTM was one of the reasons why it had to be taken out. We all seen the Stig at the e3 video. That feature was also taken out. Remember GT psp was in development at the same time. Both games were being developed at the same time. Kaz apologized at the Tokyo Game Show stating there were so many features he wanted into the title but couldn't. That's why GT6 is already being developed. Everybody needs to stop blaming Kaz.

Why exaclty does everyone need to stop blaming Kaz? Becuase he said there wasn't enough time? Here's a novel idea, when you own a company that creates a product for sale and there is an industry standard average time for such products and you take 3 times longer to crank one out... YOU ARE A BAD PROJECT MANAGER.

And when you own the company, it's no one's fault but yours.

If you order a steak at a restaraunt and 3 hours later the steak finally comes to your table half cooked with no sides and the chef/owner says "oh sorry man, I needed more time!" do you say "everyone needs to stop blaming the chef/owner!"

What? Seriously?

Hey can you hire me to do some work? I will take way too long and when you finally get on my butt to finish the job because it's taken so long I will give you a half done product and we will all be happy because you will tell everyone to stop blaming me, I just needed more time!

What people NEED to do is stop kissing PD's butt and trying to shelter them from all blame like they are your little sister or something... the reason we even got this far into this mess is the constant insistance from the fanbase that "perfection is worth waiting for!" which is ironcially followed up by the current line "you can't make everyone happy" - um... that's why perfection isn't worth waiting for, it won't/can't be perfect...

If the fans didn't constantly deny and rationlize away any wait as worth it no matter what maybe Kaz and PD would have realized the need to actually choose a reasonable set of goals and meet the rather than know their fans would gladly take it in the rear with a "thank you, may I please have another? when they chose an unrealistic set of goals and then fell short.

And now it goes on... it's like battered wife syndrome... it seems many fans think that if we just kiss enough butt things will magically get better... next time...

The idolizing is remarkable sometimes... literally can't do wrong... or at least can't be blamed for doing wrong...

Seriously it comes across a lot like this:

 

[Claybird]

How mature of you to use a grossly overused/outdated meme.

 

[Devedander]

How mature of you to use a grossly overused/outdated meme.

Exactly the point I was making... the "people need to stop blaming Kaz" is almost as uselessly played out and worthless.

 

[shurnster]

Correction, GT5's game engine was reportedly built from the ground up but much of the assets are recycled/imported. It's not built fom the ground up.

The thing about game engines is that to get the most of the hardware they have to be built from stratch for that hardware. Gran Turismo HD was basically the PS2 game engine ported to the PS3, and therefore it looked like the PS2 game only in HD, therefore to take it to the next level they needed a game engine designed for the PS3. And yes some code have been imported from the previous engine from preventing errors.

And PD getting only 3 hours sleep? You say that as if PD is a raggedy puppy on the side of the road or something that deserves our pitty...

So basically PD didn't try their best and wasted their time am i right?

So when PD has 5-6 years since GT4 and Sony say "come on guys! 🤬 or get off the pot!" you blame that on Sony or the community?

All sony cares about is increase ps3 sales for that year. Wasn't GT5 supposed to be planned for the next two years? If that's the case I guess Kaz wasn't expecting to release the title so soon. So that's a good reason to go against Polyphony. So that means Kaz should be removed from his own company. Right?

The community asked for damage because it was embarassingly bad for a simluator to have such obviously implausible results from collisions (which are a very real and very large part of racing). That and it was pretty much the industry standard to have damage - some games even having noteably impresive damage models.

Kaz loved his cars so much he hated to see the beauty of the cars to be totaled. PD could have had pre modeled damages like fm3, nfs, grid etc. But they wanted to experience something different such as real time damage deformation to see how it comes out instead.

Really? We asked for weird melty plastic damage on most cars with the most damage coming in the form of having to ram a car into a wall longer than any non endurance race lasts to show significant damage? Because that's not what I asked for..

It's their first time implementing damage on a title. So if it's not what you asked for right. Maybe you should email Kaz.

You explain that away as if getting something broken isn't ok to complain about just because you asked for that general thing...

My disc works well. Maybe you should replace/turn in your broken product to get your money back

Or damage, or paintable wheels, or phototravel option or swappable rims, or aero mods... yeah that list goes on and on.

That's a nice Christmas list for santa. We didn't receive what we wanted. I guess somebody was naughty last year lol

If you order a steak at a restaraunt and 3 hours later the steak finally comes to your table half cooked with no sides and the chef/owner says "oh sorry man, I needed more time!" do you say "everyone needs to stop blaming the chef/owner!"

I didn't know restaraunt cooks video games

What people NEED to do is stop kissing PD's butt and trying to shelter them from all blame like they are your little sister or something.

So you want everybody who bought GT5 even the ones that enjoy the title to go against PD. Honestly man I'm sorry if Kaz offended you and other people dude. And yes you have the right to criticize a game (in general) but never expect perfection even if a title that has been in development in 10 years or so. You should next time assume the worst. Just sell it on ebay. It can take the steam off your head

Reading comments like yours and asking for everybody to go against Kaz blaming him and his team, I would be really scared for him to go outside. Hope this helps. I really hope you feel better dude seriously

 

[Devedander]

So basically PD didn't try their best and wasted their time am i right?

This makes me think of a famous quote: "Do or do not, there is no try."

In the world of busienss and deliverables there is no such thing as a gold star for effort. You produce a product and it's good or it's not.

How PD ended up with what they ended up with is anohter story, but the fact that after this long, a studio with lots of experience in the area and huge backing from Sony produced an unfinished game (by Kaz's own statements).

It's not a pitty party, it's a business situation.

All sony cares about is increase ps3 sales for that year. Wasn't GT5 supposed to be planned for the next two years? If that's the case I guess Kaz wasn't expecting to release the title so soon. So that's a good reason to go against Polyphony. So that means Kaz should be removed from his own company. Right?

I am not sure what you are referring to with 2 more years, but you will notice over the history of GT5 Kaz presents the features and hype of the game usually with an hopeful release date. That date gets pushed back every year. Look back at the E3's and game cons, you will see multiple presentations with dates as early as 2008.

There was the unofficial release date of Xmas 09 and then the official release march 2010. When the March date got pushed back Kaz said:

“Actually, I think that March would’ve been too early. We could have produced the game in time to make that deadline, but the finished product wouldn’t have had everything that I wanted to include.”

Directly implying the delay would result in including everything he wanted to.

Then the Oct release date got delayed again and the official statement was:

We sincerely apologize to GT fans for the delay, however, creator Kazunori Yamauchi and the team at Polyphony Digital want to make certain they are creating the perfect racing experience, and we are confident that this ambitious game will exceed expectations when it launches.

Kaz has been extending the release date since as far as anyone can know and he knew WELL in advance of release what the expected release date was.

Seeing the timeline and what Kaz said, how can you really excuse him as 'it's not his fault" and "the release date was unexpected"?

Kaz loved his cars so much he hated to see the beauty of the cars to be totaled. PD could have had pre modeled damages like fm3, nfs, grid etc. But they wanted to experience something different such as real time damage deformation to see how it comes out instead.

Your statement is contradictory and makes no sense.

Kaz has stated himself that he personally just doesn't care about damage, however understands it's an important part of racing. It's not about not wanting to see their beauty damaged (that's the fanbase party line - kind of like "they hate our freedoms").

And I understand fully wanting to do it perfectly, but ultimately this is another example of poor project management - set the goals so high that instead of ending up with a well executed decent product, you end up with an unfinished product.

BTW you mention grid in your list of bad damage games... have you played grid? It's got some great damage effects, arguable some of the best in a modern racing game alongside Burnout.

Either way your statement about wanting to do it right doesn't even fit with the end result in which the few cars that DO have cosmetic damage modeled well have it set so high it's totally unrealistic and the really dramatic stuff - doors falling off and hatches popping open - don't matter whether they are canned or not, they happen the same way every time regardless.

It's their first time implementing damage on a title. So if it's not what you asked for right. Maybe you should email Kaz.

Or bring it up in a forum... you know the same place people say all the good stuff about the game.

And it's not like I have to say anything, on the off chance that PD are totally blind and can't see what a cockup they have made of damage (which they obviously did since they rolled back the previous photoshop smudge tool damage we saw before release) every review of the game directly pans the poor damage system.

This is not a case of needing to inform anyone - the word is absolutely out - but it's even less valuable to make excuses for it.

I don't buy the "first time" excuse for a game that was in developoment that long in a world where damage is the norm, not the exception.

And that's without even touching on the glass bending damage that happens on standard cars.

Can't have it both ways - worth waiting for perfection and it's their first try, excuse the major shortfall.

My disc works well. Maybe you should replace/turn in your broken product to get your money back

If you have to twist the obvious meaning so much to have a rebuttle, your rebuttle probably isn't worth much.

Clearly I wasn't talking about the functionality of the disc, I am talking about the product... and BTW in the US you usually can't return open software.

That's a nice Christmas list for santa. We didn't receive what we wanted. I guess somebody was naughty last year lol

Must be, because I have never known Santa to fail so hard at delievering... and Santa gets it right in only 365 days, not 5-6 years.

I didn't know restaraunt cooks video games

Ahhh behavior like this takes me back to my elementary school days... thanks for the nostalgia!

So you want everybody who bought GT5 even the ones that enjoy the title to go against PD. Honestly man I'm sorry if Kaz offended you and other people dude. And yes you have the right to criticize a game (in general) but never expect perfection even if a title that has been in development in 10 years or so. You should next time assume the worst. Just sell it on ebay. It can take the steam off your head

No, I want people to stop making excuses and blatently rationlizing things out of some kind of groupie love for Kaz and PD. They aren't your friends and they aren't kids who's feelings will get hurt... it's a business.

And expect perfection? Nice with the hyperbole... I didn't expect perfection (although where were you when the party line was all about how perfect GT was vs everything else and THAT'S why you don't do it like T10?) but I also didn't expect so many flaws and so many hyped features to be so half done.

Reading comments like yours and asking for everybody to go against Kaz blaming him and his team, I would be really scared for him to go outside. Hope this helps. I really hope you feel better dude seriously

Really? Have you ever seen amazon.com? How about resellerratings or netflix?

You see those ratings systems that are in place?

That's not people threatening to go injur the maker of the product, that's consumer feedback. And when it's honest (both positive and negative) it works to improve the products.

What doesn't have any positive value is ignoring legitimate issues, making excuses and differing blame as if the company is some personal friend of yours... there is a word for that kind of behavior and it doesn't imply a rational or valueable methodology.

BTW have you see this? http://feedback.gtplanet.net/forums/96709-gt5-feedback

Oh my... better talk to Jordan, apparently his site is supporting haterism! Look at all the things that are listed as broken, but nah, you are right, I am just unreasonable and should take it in the shorts reselling my game at a loss on ebay rather than actually, you know, pointing out the legitimate faults in the product... yeah that's the best way to do things

 

[kazuyam]

Long but good read. To put it in a nutshell: Overall, GT5 is not a good game.

In my opinion, from all those 6 million people who bought that game, only a minority is still playing only, and just only this game, because GT fans, fans of racing games, fans of cars and automotive stuff but also die hard fanboys, in other words the special fan base. I guess all those people still playing the game online. Not that much afterall.

From what I learned from games from the past, I really believe PD won't make GT5 any much better at all anymore. GT6 comes in mind

That's it, that's GT5, that's what we got after so much time. Not-a-good-game.

 

[freedomweasel]

Reading comments like yours and asking for everybody to go against Kaz blaming him and his team, I would be really scared for him to go outside. Hope this helps. I really hope you feel better dude seriously

Out of curiosity, do when you finish up a days work have you created something? What I mean is, are you a teacher or someone who provides a service of sorts, or do you design or manufacture something?

When we (people at my office) read reviews of our products we don't fear for our lives if the reviews are poor. If someone, or lots of people, send us feedback, good or bad, we take it into consideration.

I don't understand why Kaz and PD are put on some sort of soft pillow because they can't handle criticisms. I'm sure they're all big boys and girls and can handle someone saying they didn't enjoy the product as much as they hoped.

 

[kazuyam]

Out of curiosity, do when you finish up a days work have you created something? What I mean is, are you a teacher or someone who provides a service of sorts, or do you design or manufacture something?

When we (people at my office) read reviews of our products we don't fear for our lives if the reviews are poor. If someone, or lots of people, send us feedback, good or bad, we take it into consideration.

I don't understand why Kaz and PD are put on some sort of soft pillow because they can't handle criticisms. I'm sure they're all big boys and girls and can handle someone saying they didn't enjoy the product as much as they hoped.

Interesting. In my case, if my former boss says, ''wow, I like that and our ceo does like it too'', we didn't care any longer if someone who bought it claims afterwords, that he or she has some complains about our product. That's not our concern anymore, as long as the sales figures are OK and as long as marketing is taking all the feedback bashing. Really, no joke. And I'm talking about a big, second biggest company world wide.
Now, game industry is a bit closer to the fan base then my company because both are using the same platforms, the Internet as a tool(more or less).
I can imagine that this could be pritty much the case with PD and Kaz.

I mean, the game has some good sales figures, the critics are, for a GT game, not great but good, and Sony made some good profit. So it's all up to Kaz as the producer.:
Is he confident, that he did a good product? Is he pleased with his team? More over, is Sony happy with what Kaz did? It's really all up to him now.
His employees won't care/won't dare to try to complain.

One more aspect. Bosses are usually too busy/too old to listen to individual complains. Kaz is definitely one of those, one of those 'no longer down to earth' bosses.

 

[LVracerGT]

I'm mildly amused at shurnsters ignorance. He sounds like a republican

Also, besides all the shortcomings that have already been mentioned, Devedander's write-up made me realize something when he described the people still exclusively playing GT5. I still play GTR2 regularly, a title that was released in 2006. Why? Online features and community. They are incredible. The amount of control over the online features has had me involved with a league for the last 5 years.

If Kaz and PD want to keep people around, they've got to step up the online features as well.

 

[shurnster]

I'm mildly amused at shurnsters ignorance. He sounds like a republican

I just made an apology and you calling me ignorant and saying I sound like a republican? People will always have their agreements/disagreements. You're the one being ignorant. Cannot please people the days

 

[Custer85]

All the criticism shows two things:

1. The expectations were very high and it was merely impossible to please everyone, especially after hping the game for being in development for 5 years, which is not the case. The actual development took them 2 or 3 years, since they rebuild big parts of the engine after prologue and worked on other titles, like GT PSP. The expectations knew no limits, it was like wishing for the ultimate racingsim with all race tracks on this planet, all the cars on this planet in premium quality, mixed with a damage system like no other and perfect online. Limitations of the aging PS3 hardware left aside, many of these things were hard to accomplish from the beginning, since they only had so much time

2. All the complaints and wishes for improvement show that the fanbase is really interested in what GT should become in the future. The foundation laid with GT5 is superb in my eyes, but the additional features, like damage, trackeditor, carpainter and visual tuning still need to be improved. I think the Physics and the overall feel of the game is good and since we are getting improvements through patches nearly every month, or even more often, shows that PD cares about their fans and try to appease them until they can come up with something that makes GT5 the game that everyone wanted, or GT6, that finally brings everything to the table, that many were wishing for.

Critique is the right way to go, since it helps PD to improve on what allready is a good game. The way that GTPlanet collects all the wishes of the fans is a very good thing.

Excuse my English.

PS: I really like GT5, I played it for moths now and i have still found no other game, that could destract me from GT5. Even if it might be the worst game ever, I still like it. If iam stupid to love this game, so be it. I had really awesome races online and Its fun to collect all those different cars and race them on all those tracks and I especially love the physics. GT5 has its fair share of shortcomings, but in the end they are no cause for disappointment to me. Sure in some parts it might not be on par with certain other games out there, but i played many of those other games and in retrospective, they all seemed dull in comparison. Even after the 100000th km on the Nordschleife its still fun to drive there, while other games became boring after a few weeks. As long as the driving is good, Iam happy. Heck its even more fun to do timetrails in GT5 than actually racing in other games.

 

[Devedander]

From what I learned from games from the past, I really believe PD won't make GT5 any much better at all anymore. GT6 comes in mind

That's it, that's GT5, that's what we got after so much time. Not-a-good-game.

We all hope PD has some huge tricks up their sleeves still to be released, however ultimately I have to say I agree and am less and less inclined to believe anything truly big is coming, at least without a price tag attached.

It's interesting how the PD Defense Force is quick to point out that it's simple, Sony forced PD to release because it's business, they wanted to move PS3's...

Well do they suddenly think that that will change and they will become benevolent when business stares them right in the eye again?

They have already sold GT5 to us... giving us more content won't make them more money, but holding it back gives them more leverage to sell GT6.

For example if they give us all the GT4 tracks in GT5 as a download, then GT6 will have to have to work very hard to have a more impressive track list.

However hold tha back and GT6 can just import the tracks from GT4 at almost no real work and everyone will say "oh ok, I will buy that for all those tracks I so miss!".

Kaz himself said karting wasn't supposed to be in GT5, it was a GT6 feature that got leaked so he put it in. It shows they are already planning such a two pronged attack on the market... content that exists now planning to be witheld for the next game.

Interesting. In my case, if my former boss says, ''wow, I like that and our ceo does like it too'', we didn't care any longer if someone who bought it claims afterwords, that he or she has some complains about our product. That's not our concern anymore, as long as the sales figures are OK and as long as marketing is taking all the feedback bashing. Really, no joke. And I'm talking about a big, second biggest company world wide

Sounds like you work at EA.

Seriously though your response and freedomweasels seem to represent two opposite (but real) work environments/worker types.

The kind who care about what they do and want to make a great product, and those who want a paycheck and do what it takes to get that paycheck signed.

Honestly I think we would all appreciate more of the former and less of the latter, but that aside you have to remember, Kaz is the leader of PD. He is not you, he is not a worker who looks to his boss for approval regardless of what the customer says... he IS the boss and the hirearchy of who looks to who for approval goes like this:

Worker -> Manager -> Boss - > Consumer

If Kax ISN'T looking to the consumer response, that's just another strike on the list of how things are being run poorly.

I mean, the game has some good sales figures, the critics are, for a GT game, not great but good, and Sony made some good profit.

You have to look at this in perspective -

A huge amount of the sales figures were based on hype. Any day 1 sales (preorders included) were based in no way on the actual quality of the product, they were all hype. No one had anything solid to base their buying decision on up to that point other than hype, and so those purchases say nothing in the way of feedback as how the consumer feels about the product.

I would even go so far as to say most of the first couple of weeks sales were based on hype and expectation as the games shortcomings really didn't start to show until you were a few weeks in (for most). Level 1-20 promised lots of potential unlockables ahead, a decent progresssion and the hope that damage was just tucked away for later.

Not until several weeks in did people start seeing the real face of what GT5 had to offer... I would wager lots of GT sales are made on eye candy and hype until pretty late in the game.

One more aspect. Bosses are usually too busy/too old to listen to individual complains. Kaz is definitely one of those, one of those 'no longer down to earth' bosses.

I think this is a stereotype at best and hardly reflects the actuallity of the situation. Many successful leaders are very agile and attentive to how their product is being recieved. Sometimes their goals are more self serving than giving the consumer what they want (as long as it creates the highest profit) however in the case of Kaz, the product is so close to his chest, I tend to think he is paying attention... the question is does he want to make what we want to enjoy, or what he wants to enjoy?

I just made an apology and you calling me ignorant and saying I sound like a republican? People will always have their agreements/disagreements. You're the one being ignorant. Cannot please people the days

That was your apology?

Republican or not, you got a great future in politics!

 

[Seismica]

GT6 will be better

 

[Devedander]

GT6 will be better

It would be pretty embarassing if it wasn't!

 

[priesty_lfc]

All the criticism shows two things:

1. The expectations were very high and it was merely impossible to please everyone, especially after hping the game for being in development for 5 years, which is not the case. The actual development took them 2 or 3 years, since they rebuild big parts of the engine after prologue and worked on other titles, like GT PSP. The expectations knew no limits, it was like wishing for the ultimate racingsim with all race tracks on this planet, all the cars on this planet in premium quality, mixed with a damage system like no other and perfect online. Limitations of the aging PS3 hardware left aside, many of these things were hard to accomplish from the beginning, since they only had so much time

2. All the complaints and wishes for improvement show that the fanbase is really interested in what GT should become in the future. The foundation laid with GT5 is superb in my eyes, but the additional features, like damage, trackeditor, carpainter and visual tuning still need to be improved. I think the Physics and the overall feel of the game is good and since we are getting improvements through patches nearly every month, or even more often, shows that PD cares about their fans and try to appease them until they can come up with something that makes GT5 the game that everyone wanted, or GT6, that finally brings everything to the table, that many were wishing for.

Critique is the right way to go, since it helps PD to improve on what allready is a good game. The way that GTPlanet collects all the wishes of the fans is a very good thing.

Excuse my English.

PS: I really like GT5, I played it for moths now and i have still found no other game, that could destract me from GT5. Even if it might be the worst game ever, I still like it. If iam stupid to love this game, so be it. I had really awesome races online and Its fun to collect all those different cars and race them on all those tracks and I especially love the physics. GT5 has its fair share of shortcomings, but in the end they are no cause for disappointment to me. Sure in some parts it might not be on par with certain other games out there, but i played many of those other games and in retrospective, they all seemed dull in comparison. Even after the 100000th km on the Nordschleife its still fun to drive there, while other games became boring after a few weeks. As long as the driving is good, Iam happy. Heck its even more fun to do timetrails in GT5 than actually racing in other games.

+1 👍

 

[BarronGeddon]

All the criticism shows two things:

1. The expectations were very high and it was merely impossible to please everyone, especially after hping the game for being in development for 5 years, which is not the case. The actual development took them 2 or 3 years, since they rebuild big parts of the engine after prologue and worked on other titles, like GT PSP. The expectations knew no limits, it was like wishing for the ultimate racingsim with all race tracks on this planet, all the cars on this planet in premium quality, mixed with a damage system like no other and perfect online. Limitations of the aging PS3 hardware left aside, many of these things were hard to accomplish from the beginning, since they only had so much time

2. All the complaints and wishes for improvement show that the fanbase is really interested in what GT should become in the future. The foundation laid with GT5 is superb in my eyes, but the additional features, like damage, trackeditor, carpainter and visual tuning still need to be improved. I think the Physics and the overall feel of the game is good and since we are getting improvements through patches nearly every month, or even more often, shows that PD cares about their fans and try to appease them until they can come up with something that makes GT5 the game that everyone wanted, or GT6, that finally brings everything to the table, that many were wishing for.

Critique is the right way to go, since it helps PD to improve on what allready is a good game. The way that GTPlanet collects all the wishes of the fans is a very good thing.

Excuse my English.

PS: I really like GT5, I played it for moths now and i have still found no other game, that could destract me from GT5. Even if it might be the worst game ever, I still like it. If iam stupid to love this game, so be it. I had really awesome races online and Its fun to collect all those different cars and race them on all those tracks and I especially love the physics. GT5 has its fair share of shortcomings, but in the end they are no cause for disappointment to me. Sure in some parts it might not be on par with certain other games out there, but i played many of those other games and in retrospective, they all seemed dull in comparison. Even after the 100000th km on the Nordschleife its still fun to drive there, while other games became boring after a few weeks. As long as the driving is good, Iam happy. Heck its even more fun to do timetrails in GT5 than actually racing in other games.

👍👍👍

 

[shurnster]

@Devedander

GT5 prologue by itself was in development with about 120 people since 2004. Two years before the release of GT4. It seems like they had two different titles that they were working on their hands.

If you notice in his interview as of 2009 with the GTPSP, he wanted to promote his psp more than GT5.

Here is Kaz's statement about GT prologue at his interview:

Of course after this next update, we're going to have another update later on in the year. There's no plans in the works for GT5 yet - that might be 2009, or it might be 2010... But we're totally focused on getting the updates through for Gran Turismo 5 Prologue, and that's all we're focused on.

I'm guessing he didn't want to develop GT5. His primary focus wasn't on GT5. He was focusing on other titles.

I am not sure what you are referring to with 2 more years

He was unsatisfied with the product which was obvious at the TGS. As I've mentioned earlier if you remember at the TGS he made a statement about he was sorry that he didn't have enough time to put the features that he wanted for GT5.

Seeing the timeline and what Kaz said, how can you really excuse him as 'it's not his fault" and "the release date was unexpected"?

The only reason the title

Your statement is contradictory and makes no sense.

Kaz has stated himself that he personally just doesn't care about damage, however understands it's an important part of racing. It's not about not wanting to see their beauty damaged

His statement relating to damages was in GTprologue that i've mentioned. In his own words he mentioned the reason why damages were taken out of prologue was because of beaty of the cars.

BTW you mention grid in your list of bad damage games... have you played grid? It's got some great damage effects, arguable some of the best in a modern racing game alongside Burnout.

I never stated bad damages in other games. And yes I have grid. PD goal in damages were different from the other titles. They wanted a calculations model of real time deformation. Other games like grid, burnout, nfs etc already modeled what the damages would be like. Not real time deformation.

Either way your statement about wanting to do it right doesn't even fit with the end result in which the few cars that DO have cosmetic damage modeled well have it set so high it's totally unrealistic and the really dramatic stuff - doors falling off and hatches popping open - don't matter whether they are canned or not, they happen the same way every time regardless.

I never said about their damages were right or not.

Or bring it up in a forum... you know the same place people say all the good stuff about the game.

There will always be positive/negative in forums.

And it's not like I have to say anything, on the off chance that PD are totally blind and can't see what a cockup they have made of damage (which they obviously did since they rolled back the previous photoshop smudge tool damage we saw before release) every review of the game directly pans the poor damage system.

Wasn't you already expecting this in GT5?

No, I want people to stop making excuses and blatently rationlizing things out of some kind of groupie love for Kaz and PD. They aren't your friends and they aren't kids who's feelings will get hurt... it's a business.

And expect perfection? Nice with the hyperbole... I didn't expect perfection (although where were you when the party line was all about how perfect GT was vs everything else and THAT'S why you don't do it like T10?) but I also didn't expect so many flaws and so many hyped features to be so half done.

Yea I remembered those times. If you critisize GT5 last year and before last. People would critisize you (in general). I guess it's the other way now lol

Really? Have you ever seen amazon.com? How about resellerratings or netflix?

You see those ratings systems that are in place?

That's not people threatening to go injur the maker of the product, that's consumer feedback. And when it's honest (both positive and negative) it works to improve the products.

Yea on my first impressions with other comments I've never seen so much heated people pissed like that on this forum before. And when you was making alot of meme's, that really freaked me out. I was wondering is other's going to take it to the next level and start threatening and injuring the creator?

I'm glad you made it clear on that statement. My bad dude.

BTW have you see this? http://feedback.gtplanet.net/forums/96709-gt5-feedback

Oh my... better talk to Jordan, apparently his site is supporting haterism!

I'm sure Jordan probably is thinking the same way as you seriously.

Look at all the things that are listed as broken, but nah, you are right, I am just unreasonable and should take it in the shorts reselling my game at a loss on ebay rather than actually, you know, pointing out the legitimate faults in the product... yeah that's the best way to do things

I'm sure you are saying all this to help PD. But honestly if the game doesn't satisfy you just resell it. I'm not stoping you to point out things on GT5.

Before I bought the title I was already knowing what to expect out of GT5. In my own opinion I enjoy the game. There will always be improvements from a title. The game isn't perfect. It still needs improvement in different areas. I only got it because of the graphics on the ps3 and the physics. It's an awesome experience for me.

 

[shurnster]

That was your apology?

Republican or not, you got a great future in politics!

Thanks for the compliment!

 

[Devedander]

GT5 prologue by itself was in development with about 120 people since 2004. Two years before the release of GT4. It seems like they had two different titles that they were working on their hands.

I don't think that's accurate... GTHD and GTVision were what they were working on since GT4 for PS3, GT5P is what they created when they scrapped GTVision/GTHD.

If you notice in his interview as of 2009 with the GTPSP, he wanted to promote his psp more than GT5.

Here is Kaz's statement about GT prologue at his interview:

I'm guessing he didn't want to develop GT5. His primary focus wasn't on GT5. He was focusing on other titles.

While PD considers GT5P and GT5 to be seperate games, in reality GT5P is more or less GT5 Beta or GT5 v0.8 or some such... they have significant differences but GT5P is really little more than a tech build of where they were with GT5.

Basically in this timeline you could replace the world "Prologue" with Beta and it would be all the same other than numeclature.

He was unsatisfied with the product which was obvious at the TGS. As I've mentioned earlier if you remember at the TGS he made a statement about he was sorry that he didn't have enough time to put the features that he wanted for GT5.

He makes all kinds of (often contradictory) statements. He has also said he didn't put everything he wanted into GT4 or GT3 or any GT really, he says he always runs out of time and has things he wishes he could have added.

The problem is GT5 represents an astonishing jump in the amount of things that have made some kind of apperance or been implied and then not made it as well as things that weren't cut but weren't finished either.

At least in previous games things may not have made it, but what did was usually reasonably finished and polished... it seems one of Kaz's major faults (kid in a candy shop) is getting worse.

The only reason the title

What?

His statement relating to damages was in GTprologue that i've mentioned. In his own words he mentioned the reason why damages were taken out of prologue was because of beaty of the cars.

I don't recall that but I do recall him talking about damage in GT5 and how he didn't care for it personally but understood it was an important part of racing.

I never stated bad damages in other games. And yes I have grid. PD goal in damages were different from the other titles. They wanted a calculations model of real time deformation. Other games like grid, burnout, nfs etc already modeled what the damages would be like. Not real time deformation.

I don't know about what you were seeing but I was seeing pretty dynamic damage in Grid... if anything GT5's damage looks more canned in some circumstances, although that's also probably largely due to how fake it often looks with the melty plastic efect.

There will always be positive/negative in forums.

Well you were telling me to email him inferring what I was already doing (posting in a forum) was incorrect.

Wasn't you already expecting this in GT5?

Expecting what? And from how long back are we talking?

I did have a gut drop feeling close to launch that they had totally fudged the damage and were trying to get it right before launch but it just wasn't happening... that's hardly expecting it though... and I never expected that you would have to ram cars into walls for 20 minutes on end to get a door to swing open.

So no... I don't think I (or most people) were expecting anything close to what we ended up getting.

In fact the vast majority of people were posting how they expected damage to outshine Grid and Burnout in terms of detail and realism and how they expected damage would be equally great on all cars (since once you make a dynamic deformation engine, it's easy to apply to all assets).

Yea I remembered those times. If you critisize GT5 last year and before last. People would critisize you (in general). I guess it's the other way now lol

Oh it's still happening plenty, although the ciriticism now is less "your an idiot GT5 will be perfect" and more "Your an idiot you shouldn't have believed them when they told you these things would be in the game and you shoudln't have believed me when I told you perfection was worth waiting for because nothigns perfect!"

Yea on my first impressions with other comments I've never seen so much heated people pissed like that on this forum before. And when you was making alot of meme's, that really freaked me out. I was wondering is other's going to take it to the next level and start threatening and injuring the creator?

I linked to one meme... of the britney guy... and it was directed at your behavior, nothing about PD or Kaz at all... what makes you think that is going to lead to injuring anyone let alone Kaz?

I'm glad you made it clear on that statement. My bad dude.

What?

I'm sure Jordan probably is thinking the same way as you seriously.

I actually think Jordan has other things to worry about than GT5... if I recall he didn't even play his copy until weeks after release and my gut feeling is he is more concerned with the business side of growing this site. Can't blame him on that one...

I'm sure you are saying all this to help PD. But honestly if the game doesn't satisfy you just resell it. I'm not stoping you to point out things on GT5.

But you are telling me what to do (resell the game) and you are the one who told me to email PD... that's a direct implication to stop doing what I am doing and do something else.

Either way, reselling the game doesn't help change anything... that's running from the problem.

I loved GT and the GT series and I am as intrested as anyone in it becoming better... the way to that is not to pretend nothings wrong, sell my copy and quietly hope the next version is better... if you recall silent hopes were what filled the years leading up to GT5 (although arguably they were more reasonable considering GT's history at that point).

And reselling the game is a financial hit to me... that's essentially money from my pocket so your solution is really just to bend over and take it, which isn't really a solution in my book at all.

Can I ask, if I don't like how the country is being run, should I vote or should I move to a new country? It seems like your advice would be just move...

Before I bought the title I was already knowing what to expect out of GT5.

You must be psychic or work for PD then...

You knew how the damage system would be implimented and how light the implimentation would be?

You knew 80% of the cars would be straight ports from previous GT games?

You knew you wouldn't be able to swap/paint wheels on 80% of the cars?

You knew the career progression would be level locked and have a built in grind wall?

You knew there would be no online hoppers and you knew that despite saying you can invite people directly from in game on the box, you wouldn't actually be able to?

I am gonna call BS on that claim... you may have known about what interested you and been right on those fronts, but there is no way you knew overall what to expect.

In my own opinion I enjoy the game. There will always be improvements from a title. The game isn't perfect. It still needs improvement in different areas. I only got it because of the graphics on the ps3 and the physics. It's an awesome experience for me.

Well there you go then... eye candy and physics... if that's all you are looking for, then indeed GT5 might well satisfy. Those are, after all, the meat and potatoes of what has sold the GT series thus far.

But that doesn't excuse or remove the importance of the rest of the features and only cements more in my mind why your claims that Kaz should be not to blame are not helping the situation... you don't care as much about the main issues....

If you only care about taking gorgeous pictures of a 370z then photomode is pretty much perfect and you have nothing to complain about... but it also means you are a pretty biased person to go measuring who others should be holding accountable for short falls.

BTW... there will always bee improvement and the game isn't perfect... there you go again... a slightly over done steak and a burnt crisp one both "aren't perfect" and both "could use improvement" but it's pretty clear they aren't the same thing at all... trying to dismiss the difference like that really makes your position look weak.

 

[Duman079]

Lol. If you dont like it, dont play it 👍.

Love gt5. I do agree, the challenges are boring. Should be way more challenges. But its the first GT on PS3. Just like GT3 => GT4 will be better. So hope gt6 will be better. You cant see me complaing about gt5 though. People expect way to much from a console.....