Are the penalties too extreme at Le Mans?

[Tentafool]

I'm assuming this is running pretty much according to the rules imposed by the ACO.

Tertre Rouge is particularly unforgiving, as you can understeer off the kerb on the left and incur a penalty, or you can slightly cut the corner entry and incur a penalty that way. You have to be precise with that corner.

 

[iFerrari]

There isn't a single point in that lap where Kobayashi has two wheels (maybe there's a misunderstanding here, 2 wheels meaning wheels on either side of the car) on the kerb. Not sure why people keep pointing to the lap like its breaking GTS's rules.

Not sure we watched same lap, besides Porsches, 2nd Hunaudieres and Arnage he’s always either touching the kerbs on entrance/exit or he has half the car inside/outside like on the Corvette virage or Ford chicanes.

 

[GT6mebe]

Not sure we watched same lap, besides Porsches, 2nd Hunaudieres and Arnage he’s always either touching the kerbs on entrance/exit or he has half the car inside/outside like on the Corvette virage or Ford chicanes.

I mean having both front wheels or both rear wheels. Having half the car on the kerb is perfectly fine.

 

[OutlawQuadrnt]

One thing I've learned in league races is that even with written rules on track limits, organizers must clearly define boundaries with additional aids anywhere on the track where clarification is needed for whatever reason.

This is where GT Sport falls short. Whatever boundaries we need to follow should be clearly defined before we even drive on the track rather than by trial and error. On record, I'd rather have the older version of Le Mans since that one was less prone to cutting.

 

[KK78]

There isn't a single point in that lap where Kobayashi has two wheels (maybe there's a misunderstanding here, 2 wheels meaning wheels on either side of the car) on the kerb. Not sure why people keep pointing to the lap like its breaking GTS's rules.

We did have a misunderstanding, I was talking about 2 wheels on the same side been on the kerb, which the professional in the video does often but in GT Sport it can land you a penalty

 

[kjeldsen]

That's due to the misleading view making you think he's cutting, he takes the chicane on the very limits of what would be acceptable in GTS.

Yeah, and misleading sound of the rumble from hitting the curbs not to mention the visible shaking..

Umm no. He never places two wheels on any kerb.

How many wheels is it then, 1.99999?

 

[GT6mebe]

We did have a misunderstanding, I was talking about 2 wheels on the same side been on the kerb, which the professional in the video does often but in GT Sport it can land you a penalty

2 Wheels on the same side....never seen a penalty being handed out on Le Mans for that.

 

[Baldydom]

I agree with a lot of the previous comments about needing strict track track limits but the penalties are imo too harsh. I completely understand large penalties for completely failing to brake for a chicane but 10s for a slight cut? I think penalties should reflect the offence: there's no way cutting a kerb is going to gain 10s

 

[Sven Jurgens]

I still don’t understand why every single corner cut needs to be a penalty, irl drivers get punished when they do multiple times during multiple laps the same corner cuts/track extensions. I’m not against harsh track limits I’m against ridicolous penalties that just transform races in cars slowing left and right and you have to do weird slaloms on straights to avoid them, would really like them to rethink the whole system.

That's another problem, penalties should not be served on track, either in the pit or tacked on at the end.

I agree with a lot of the previous comments about needing strict track track limits but the penalties are imo too harsh. I completely understand large penalties for completely failing to brake for a chicane but 10s for a slight cut? I think penalties should reflect the offence: there's no way cutting a kerb is going to gain 10s

That's a result of serving penalties in the race. It also doesn't take 10 seconds to get rid of a 10 second penalty. At the finish you can lose the penalty time almost 3 times as fast as the time loss, and during the race you can get rid of it without losing any time in the right place while staying in draft range of the car in front.

Serving penalties in the race is the problem. Fix that, then the shortcut penalties can more accurately reflect the time gained.

 

[K32]

Yeah, and misleading sound of the rumble from hitting the curbs not to mention the visible shaking..

Note my previous comment: "...on the very limits of what would be acceptable..." He is going on the rumble strips and kerbs, but just enough. I didn't say he wasn't.

Take a look at this video of the lap with some external views:



In the first part of the chicane he's all over the kerb:

View attachment 739908

And that's not the only bit of kerb use in that video. I don't know the GTS track limits from personal experience, but Kobi's lap is no paragon of kerb avoiding virtue...

Again, he is pushing the car to the very limit of what is allowed, this is what drivers do. His 2 inside tyres are still within (or on) the white line.

 

[Baldydom]

That's another problem, penalties should not be served on track, either in the pit or tacked on at the end.



That's a result of serving penalties in the race. It also doesn't take 10 seconds to get rid of a 10 second penalty. At the finish you can lose the penalty time almost 3 times as fast as the time loss, and during the race you can get rid of it without losing any time in the right place while staying in draft range of the car in front.

Serving penalties in the race is the problem. Fix that, then the shortcut penalties can more accurately reflect the time gained.

yup... I play gt sport to race people, not to cruise past them while they are serving penalties. you must be better than me at serving penalties though as I don't know how a 10s pen can be served without ruining a race, and that's assuming no more penalties are applied. accrue enough and you have to serve them immediately

 

[cleanLX]

Sometimes it plain hurts.
Forget there are curbs for a second, and focus on the white lines, you know, the track limits lines.
The racing surface is the area between the two white lines that circumnavigate the perimeter and interior of the asphalt circuit.
More than 2 wheels over those lines is a penalty... the curbs have nothing to do with track limits...
So, if you can keep 2 wheels on track and still hit the curb, good for you, if not, then obviously the curb itself is off limits.
Just because certain series, drivers, circumstances discard this does not change the actual track limits.
Curbs were initially put in place to keep cars from using that piece of real estate (throwing gravel and grass onto the racing surface, and offering unfair advantage, and unsafe/unpredictable track conditions), those curbs would throw the car off line, or, ruin wheels/suspensions, they were meant o be avoided.
Then, everyone started crying that they were unsafe, so, the curbs got re-profiled, and, are now taken advantage of.
We are starting to see the big yellow "log" on edges of curbs to encourage adherence to track limits... all things old become new again...

The fact that series organizers tell the racers "hey guys, we're really going to enforce track limits on turns 4 and 11..." is a disservice.
They ought to be enforcing track limits around the full circuit.

Since we do not have pre-race drivers meetings, PD has decided to make the track limits actually be... the track limits.

And no one needs to "relearn" tracks...
If you've been cutting corners and running wide all along, then, you never did really learn the track.

yup... I play gt sport to race people, not to cruise past them while they are serving penalties. you must be better than me at serving penalties though as I don't know how a 10s pen can be served without ruining a race, and that's assuming no more penalties are applied. accrue enough and you have to serve them immediately

I don't know... maybe "penalties" are now being used in such a manner they are no longer able to be scrubbed...
The whole scrubbing penalties thing never sat right with me anyways.
If so, I think the penalties should be a little more realistic, yet, unable to be scrubbed in any manner, other than "real time" pit stoppage beyond the fuel tires service.
I don't particularly enjoy watching folks serve penalties either, but, I am also not a fan of cars racing outside of track limits and incurring no penalty, or, one so small it can simply be gamed away.

Yes, it's a game, and learn to take advantage of the games "loopholes" or you're just stupid...
I'd just prefer the loopholes be closed and we all adhere to the white lines.

 

[Auditore]

I think GT Sport needs a warning system.4 wheels over the curb gets you a penalty but if you put 2 wheels over the curb you get a warning for corner cutting,if the player is a good driver he will learn where the limit of the track is next time,if the player wants to troll the race he gets a 10 second penalty after 5 warnings.5 warnings for 20 lap races, 4 warnings for 10 lap races and 3 warnings for 5 lap races

That's another problem, penalties should not be served on track, either in the pit or tacked on at the end.

Never tacked on at the end,going to the pits is the best option and it's something possible because PD used that rule in the GT World Tour.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

I think GT Sport needs a warning system.4 wheels over the curb gets you a penalty but if you put 2 wheels over the curb you get a warning for corner cutting,if the player is a good driver he will learn where the limit of the track is next time,if the player wants to troll the race he gets a 10 second penalty after 5 warnings.5 warnings for 20 lap races, 4 warnings for 10 lap races and 3 warnings for 5 lap races

Never tacked on at the end,going to the pits is the best option and it's something possible because PD used that rule in the GT World Tour.

What about the last lap, bit odd to force a pit stop at the finish. A warning system will be gamed again like every other little loophole. The big pool of SR points to be gained on daily C races is already being gamed as the first lap in a daily C is usually more dirty than a whole daily B race. Give people a free pass to cut a corner every race and it will be used to overtake, catch up into draft range or escape out of range.

Visual aids where the real track limits are with a real time distance counter how far you are from the edge would be a nice assist to have for learning a track. Yet going over should be as bad as if there was a wall right there, got to draw the line somewhere.

 

[Nielsen]

I haven't checked the penalties, but reset to track detection is ridiculous. At one point I barely entered the gravel outside Mulsanne corner and was already making my way back on track. Next thing that happened was the car resetting to track relatively far away from where I was. So pointless.

 

[Baldydom]

I don't think 10s pens for minor infringements is going to make sport mode more enjoyable for the majority of players. this isn't iRacing. if all the tracks had limits and pens as severe as this there'd be a lot fewer casual players bothering with sport mode. I play it for fun and right now, this track isn't much fun

 

[kjeldsen]

Note my previous comment: "...on the very limits of what would be acceptable..." He is going on the rumble strips and kerbs, but just enough. I didn't say he wasn't.

Again, he is pushing the car to the very limit of what is allowed, this is what drivers do. His 2 inside tyres are still within (or on) the white line.

I messed up my post, sorry.

 

[Tou2istTrophy]

Can we have a track limit assist? Like driving line and corner indicator but it just highlights the track limits?


Here’s how I would like:

Qualifying: Lap invalidated

Racing: I can’t say for sure but right now it feels too harsh.

But the one thing I would really love:

To actually know what the track limits are. PD please, be consistent and clear across all tracks.

 

[graveltrap]

Question, Did the penalty work, did it change driving behaviour to stop repeat offences because it was harsh? That is surely the goal of enforcing track limits, no matter where they are located?

 

[Baldydom]

well it worked for me as I got bored of all the pens and stopped playing... no reoffending occurred after that

 

[TheGeologist]

Question, Did the penalty work, did it change driving behaviour to stop repeat offences because it was harsh? That is surely the goal of enforcing track limits, no matter where they are located?

Well I had done several races before, and the penalty annoyed me enough that I decided to stop racing for the night..

 

[cleanLX]

I think GT Sport needs a warning system.4 wheels over the curb gets you a penalty but if you put 2 wheels over the curb you get a warning for corner cutting

Curbs have nothing to do with it, forget they exist, the white lines define the track limits, more than 2 wheels outside the white lines... you're off track.
The racing surface is the area between the two white lines that circumnavigate the perimeter and interior of the asphalt circuit.
If the curbs are located in such a manner that you can put wheels on them while still keeping 2 wheels inside the white lines so be it.

if the player wants to troll the race he gets a 10 second penalty after 5 warnings.5 warnings for 20 lap races, 4 warnings for 10 lap races and 3 warnings for 5 lap races

So, 3 to 5 times a race it's ok to cheat your opponents and gain advantage... ??
Tell me that will not be gamed.

 

[graveltrap]

Well I had done several races before, and the penalty annoyed me enough that I decided to stop racing for the night..

It is clear that you felt hard done by, you even made a thread about it Did you run the same line in the other races and not get a penalty, should the race appear again, would you run the same line now that you know it results in a 10 second penalty?

 

[Veinz]

As long as you have two wheels on the inside of the white line then their should be no penalty. Putting the other two wheels on a curb is perfectly fine.

Tetre Rouge was the only corner I had problems with, even If I keep two wheels on the track I still seem to get a penalty.

 

[VeeDoubleU]

Sorry for the poor quality of these gifs, but lets analyse them together.

So in the first gif, I get a 1.5s penalty at the exit of the chicane.

In the second gif, I run out just as wide near the exit and gain no extra penalty. If there is any difference, it is absolutely milimetres. But at that chicane, the white lines don't always represent the track limits, due to the width away from the kerbs, and how you can have wheels inside the white line and receive no penalty, but then on the exit it seems a bit variable. What I'm saying is the track limits are very poorly defined at that (and the other) chicane. I don't even get a penalty for running wide on the right side near the end of the gif, even though doing so did gain me an advantage! Inconsistancy!

Third gif, just to show you that my original 1.5s penalty had to come from the exit of the chicane, and not the entry. As in this gif, I take the left part way tighter than in the original 2 gifs and receive no penalty. Hence, the penalty in 1st gif was an instant penalty for the exit.
In this third gif, if the track limits are '4 wheels on inside of that white line is a penalty', then surely I should be penalised there too considering the penalty in the 1st gif?

https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-01-2018/aLQYjT.mp4

(Struggling to embed the third gif but the link works)

Even if you think 'well you were out of the track limits in the 1st gif', you have to agree that the penalties are inconsistent and poorly defined at circuit places.

EDIT: Here's a bonus gif! Where the hell are the track limits here? There is a solid white line on the exit, which later becomes dotted. I have all 4 wheels outside of the solid white line, but not past the kerb, yet no penalty. More inconsistency, even if you think the penalties are fair, as by your same logic, this should also be a penalty.

In addition, on the right kink after the 2nd chicane, you can have all 4 wheels on the inside of the white lines and receive no penalty. (No gif, sorry)
The track limits simply are not well defined.

 

[Tou2istTrophy]

Curbs have nothing to do with it, forget they exist, the white lines define the track limits, more than 2 wheels outside the white lines... you're off track.
The racing surface is the area between the two white lines that circumnavigate the perimeter and interior of the asphalt circuit.
If the curbs are located in such a manner that you can put wheels on them while still keeping 2 wheels inside the white lines so be it.

So, 3 to 5 times a race it's ok to cheat your opponents and gain advantage... ??
Tell me that will not be gamed.

RemindMe! 365 days “no more curb mastery needed!”

 

[Rinsky]

I feel Consistency across all tracks in GTS is what PD needs to address. If penalty are going to be handed out so easily like at LaMans it needs to be that way for all tracks. I shouldn't be able to take my car completely off the racing surface at one track but then at another track if I barely touch the rumble strip I get penalty.

Now I'm all for strict track cutting penalties and have always tried to drive this way no matter the track. Penalties for running wide I don't always agree with especially when you lose time doing so.
LaMans has that one hairpin corner about 3/4 the way through the course. I don't know the name of it but there is a house in that turn.
If you over shoot that corner and run wide you will lose time but yet we get a harsh penalty for doing so. It's definitely not a short cut so why penalize us for it. But then a few corners later I can run wide as it will allow before hitting the sand and not lose any time doing so yet no penalty is handed out.

Consistency, Consistency, Consistency

 

[anthonyfa18]

yess it really bad here yesterday was the first time i race at this track in the lobby and i stayed on the race line keep getting penalty

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Sorry for the poor quality of these gifs, but lets analyse them together.

So in the first gif, I get a 1.5s penalty at the exit of the chicane.

In the second gif, I run out just as wide near the exit and gain no extra penalty. If there is any difference, it is absolutely milimetres. But at that chicane, the white lines don't always represent the track limits, due to the width away from the kerbs, and how you can have wheels inside the white line and receive no penalty, but then on the exit it seems a bit variable. What I'm saying is the track limits are very poorly defined at that (and the other) chicane. I don't even get a penalty for running wide on the right side near the end of the gif, even though doing so did gain me an advantage! Inconsistancy!

Third gif, just to show you that my original 1.5s penalty had to come from the exit of the chicane, and not the entry. As in this gif, I take the left part way tighter than in the original 2 gifs and receive no penalty. Hence, the penalty in 1st gif was an instant penalty for the exit.
In this third gif, if the track limits are '4 wheels on inside of that white line is a penalty', then surely I should be penalised there too considering the penalty in the 1st gif?

https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-01-2018/aLQYjT.mp4

(Struggling to embed the third gif but the link works)

Even if you think 'well you were out of the track limits in the 1st gif', you have to agree that the penalties are inconsistent and poorly defined at circuit places.

EDIT: Here's a bonus gif! Where the hell are the track limits here? There is a solid white line on the exit, which later becomes dotted. I have all 4 wheels outside of the solid white line, but not past the kerb, yet no penalty. More inconsistency, even if you think the penalties are fair, as by your same logic, this should also be a penalty.

In addition, on the right kink after the 2nd chicane, you can have all 4 wheels on the inside of the white lines and receive no penalty. (No gif, sorry)
The track limits simply are not well defined.

Whether you get a penalty or not also heavily depends on your speed. You can cut the corner a bit at lower speeds, the faster you go the higher the penalty gets. I can't really see your speed in the gifs, yet of course it also comes down to millimeters when you insist on driving on the absolute edge. Would you take it this close to the edge in the DT bus stop chicane knowing you instantly crash if you go a millimeter too close to the wall?

In the last one you can overshoot all the way and not get any penalty as it's not any faster. Same a few corners later where you can go very wide over the rumble strips.

I agree that there should be an assist to show the actual track limits, either cones along the edge or a thin red line together with a real time distance indication of how close you are. I suspect there are multiple track limits though. There's the white line edge where you need to keep your inside wheels in or on, yet getting a penalty depends on your speed. Then you have more absolute limits that will always get you a penalty regardless of speed and in some places even an instant reset. And then there is a countdown timer that resets you after going wide and not getting back on the track fast enough.

However if you want to avoid penalties, or not crash on Tokyo or in the DT bus stop, don't take it so close!

I feel Consistency across all tracks in GTS is what PD needs to address. If penalty are going to be handed out so easily like at LaMans it needs to be that way for all tracks. I shouldn't be able to take my car completely off the racing surface at one track but then at another track if I barely touch the rumble strip I get penalty.

Now I'm all for strict track cutting penalties and have always tried to drive this way no matter the track. Penalties for running wide I don't always agree with especially when you lose time doing so.
LaMans has that one hairpin corner about 3/4 the way through the course. I don't know the name of it but there is a house in that turn.
If you over shoot that corner and run wide you will lose time but yet we get a harsh penalty for doing so. It's definitely not a short cut so why penalize us for it. But then a few corners later I can run wide as it will allow before hitting the sand and not lose any time doing so yet no penalty is handed out.

Consistency, Consistency, Consistency

Perhaps it has also to do with danger level. Last night someone overshoots the final hairpin on Tokyo for which you don't get a penalty. While I leave plenty of room sticking to the inside he pit manoevers me coming back in. Same could happen on Le Mans, it even resets you there if you go too wide. Penalties do alter behavior and will lead to less merging accidents. In the other corner there is a lot less danger of causing a collision after running wide.

 

[VeeDoubleU]

Would you take it this close to the edge in the DT bus stop chicane knowing you instantly crash if you go a millimeter too close to the wall?

Yes. It's why Dragon Trail is where so many of my wins have came from.

Anyway, at least with walls, it is obvious what the limits are.