ATTENTION PD! How The AI Should Work In Gran Turismo (OP updated 4th April)

[TurismoBad]

Ok so I asked PD on Facebook about AI and here's the answer. Really great stuff!

"The AI won't be updated on it's own but will utilize GPS data logger to recreate driving styles of fastest drivers or your friends. Some of those logs will be recorded and provided by PD. This AI driven cars won't be acting like ghost cars obviously - they will avoid other cars and do overtakes. We believe this is a much better solution than simply making AI faster by adjusting their braking points etc"

Source

 

[Squanto]

I think the value is in catering to multiple types of players thereby increasing the amount of people who want to buy it and also in concentrating on areas that are getting negative criticisms. If it's getting positive feedback then leave that bit be, we're happy with that. It(the AI) is indeed such a huge aspect of the game, which is why I think it needs looking at. The way the AI behaves currently is almost archaic as far as racing games go.

I don't think 2014 is going to be when GT7 is released (maybe a prologue at the end of the year but I doubt it) so I think they'll have plenty of time to rework it should they choose to. Perfecting it may be another thing and a longer process but teething issues are to be expected when introducing something new.

Herein lies the true challenge for PD ! (Bolded part)

(I suspect E3 14 will announce DC and E3 15 will announce GT7P)

Ok so I asked PD on Facebook about AI and here's the answer. Really great stuff!

"The AI won't be updated on it's own but will utilize GPS data logger to recreate driving styles of fastest drivers or your friends. Some of those logs will be recorded and provided by PD. This AI driven cars won't be acting like ghost cars obviously - they will avoid other cars and do overtakes. We believe this is a much better solution than simply making AI faster by adjusting their braking points etc"

Source

Bad Bad Boy

 

[VBR]

I've added the option to make cars a little slower to the OP to cater for the infinitesimally minute number of players who actually like driving around in 1st place all the time & winning every race! Not my cup of tea, but hey if they wanna do it, why not.

 

[bluecharger]

Never mind then.

 

[86Debris86]

Ok so I asked PD on Facebook about AI and here's the answer. Really great stuff!

"The AI won't be updated on it's own but will utilize GPS data logger to recreate driving styles of fastest drivers or your friends. Some of those logs will be recorded and provided by PD. This AI driven cars won't be acting like ghost cars obviously - they will avoid other cars and do overtakes. We believe this is a much better solution than simply making AI faster by adjusting their braking points etc"

Source

Promising. I'll believe it when I see it but this is still good to read.

Edit: Joke's on me LOL. Should have checked the source before posting

 

[bluecharger]

Promising. I'll believe it when I see it but this is still good to read.

Edit: Joke's on me LOL. Should have checked the source before posting

OK, thank you....was just about to ask

 

[86Debris86]

OK, thank you....was just about to ask

Opened it in a new window but swapped back to this one before it loaded

 

[JTB10000]

Or how about we have the option to choose if we want the A.I. to adjust to our driving styles or the difficulty slider?

 

[86Debris86]

Or how about we have the option to choose if we want the A.I. to adjust to our driving styles or the difficulty slider?

You say that like other people haven't already suggested it. We are all for options here.

 

[VBR]

Or how about we have the option to choose if we want the A.I. to adjust to our driving styles or the difficulty slider?

I think it would be boring if they adjusted to our own driving style, it would be like racing 16 clones of ourselves. It would be better if each driver had their own style, like what Turn 10 are doing with their Drivatar technology by capturing multiple driving styles & automatically moddeling the AI on them.

Just to be clear; I'm talking about the speed of the AI drivers, not the AI cars. And this idea is not intended to replace the PP system.

 

[bluecharger]

Never mind then.

 

[VBR]

I think I get that you're talking about adjusting lap times, not adapting driving style.

Yep, that's it. The lap times of the AI drivers would be adjusted to be similar to your own. Then they would get assigned cars according to the PP of the event, then you could further fine tune their speed up or down slightly with a slider option. This way, the races would be competitive yet still winnable. It's all in the OP. 👍

Maybe if they didn't make them go so slow, that would sort of self-correct. From that aspect, I see your way over the PP diff rule would be better overall.

Not really. If they "didn't make them go so slow" it wouldn't correct anything, because they would still need to be tailored to the individual speed of the player, which is the core of my idea. Again, this isn't better than the PP idea at all, as it's not meant to replace it, but to work in tandem with it.

But there's simply an unknown wall there waiting to be run into if you take that all the way to "competitive". This is PD's risk: would the game be more attractive if the races were actually competitive?

The AI drivers wouldn't be "too competitive" as they would be adjusted to a similar pace as the player, who could then further adjust the AI drivers speed to suit themselves. The game would then be as competitive as you personally wanted it to be according to your own preference.

I think most would say yes. But how many of us play well enough consistently enough to not get overwhelmed or frustrated? And does that answer lead to turning any substantial number of players off?

The beauty of not being able to consistently win will give the game replay value, a reason to play the event several times without feeling like you're grinding it. And if you really wanted to win, you could always turn on rubber banding. I've already explained all of this in the OP, have a very careful read through it again & see if it's becoming clearer now.


👍

 

[86Debris86]

This is PD's risk: would the game be more attractive if the races were actually competitive? I think most would say yes. But how many of us play well enough consistently enough to not get overwhelmed or frustrated? And does that answer lead to turning any substantial number of players off?

On the contrary, I think it would attract the sort of player who has given up on GT for being too easy for them. So long as the option remained for a more casual experience too, I think it would do the opposite.

As far as getting frustrated or overwhelmed, wouldn't that increase the replay value? The reason I'm not playing the career in GT6 right now is because I've already won everything. It's why I've recently gone back to the Sebastian Vettel challenges in GT5.

 

[bluecharger]

Never mind then.

 

[VBR]

In item number three of your potential problems you suggest the game disqualify the player if his qualifying lap is significantly better than practice. Take this, please, in the spirit it's intended:....disqualify me? in my own game?

If you didn't want to be disqualified, then you would have to refrain from trying to cheat the system by deliberately driving slower in Practice & then much faster in Qually. That's the only reason you'd be disqualified, so just put in your best effort in each mode. Or, you could just skip Practice & Qually altogether as they would be optional.

Another thing you don't address is that all these extra qualifying and practice laps certainly should count toward a vehicle's mileage. Which means they count against the day you have to pay that whopping million to rebuild a top-end racer or super car.

Obviously, that's something which would need to be addressed. Not exactly a big problem, nor would one need to be a rocket scientist to work out a solution.

But you've never quite answered MY question: do you actually object to the differential bonus program offered in GT5 in the latter seasonal races?

I never answered you because I could see no relevance at all to the subject being discussed. How is the "differential program offered in GT5" regarding Seasonal Races relevant to an idea for a future GT game which is to do with AI drivers speed?

 

[bluecharger]

Never mind then.

 

[VBR]

As to the extra mileage, test drive sessions in the garage area count, so I don't think this would change in your scenario. There is no solution.

A simple solution would be to tweak the code so that engines last longer. Another solution would be to tweak the payouts so that after completing a championship you had enough money to maintain your car & take home some winnings. Or maybe they could do a little bit of both. Problem solved.

Is all this about GT7 or 8? I thought you were suggesting this as an update for GT6 on PS3. I have no qualms about them trying something, anything different down the road.

The title of this thread just mentions Gran Turismo, not GT6 or GT7 or even GT8. I doubt they could get it up & running for GT6, but it is something for them to think about. Just an idea, another way of programming the AI, a new concept.


👍

 

[86Debris86]

by what lights do you have faith in PD to get it right? EVER?

My faith in them actually doing this is low, but that's not the point. It's simply what I think should be done. My purchase of GT7 hinges on some kind of change to the AI since I just can't be doing with how it behaves now anymore. Unfortunately, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised to see a complete lack of changes to the AI whatsoever in the next game, such is my cynicism regarding PD/Sony. I just hope someone working for or with them see threads like this.

 

[D_M]

VBR,

I think a scalable AI is a great idea. I would like to add my two cents. A cool idea would be to use real race drivers in our virtual world to set the top speeds. What I'm getting at, is having them actually drive GT. PD could use GT academy winners, if the price of racing superstars are to high. The AI system could be based on the license test times that are already part of GT. I'm thinking of the AI as being on three levels. After the first license test, the game could analyze the data and suggest whether you are a Level I, Level II, or Level III driver. PD would have the actually times that professional and novice drivers actually achieved in GT's virtual world. The user would be able to select which level they wanted to compete at. Each level would still permit each user to have access to all the cars in the game. Your online profile would show a I, II, or III next to your name. Online could be populated with random AI data taken from the online servers for each respective level when grids aren't full. This would only work in PD ran rooms, because the user room defined specs are endless. This would allow us to compete against drivers with similar talent levels.


The marketing could be endless. "Test your virtually skills against Gran Turismo's fleet of professional drivers X, Y, Z.....etc"

 

[bluecharger]

Never mind then.

 

[VBR]

First of all, VBR, I do hope you now see how you being a bit more specific in your OP could've saved a LOT of back-and-forth about this subject.

Not really, no. I was specific enough that this is just an idea, & everyone else seemed to grasp the basic concept of it. Seeing as there's no forum for future GT games, & that there are several threads on GT7 here, it is the right place to give feedback to PD regarding GT generally.

And I hope now that you (hopefully) understand where I was coming from you see the relevance of why I was saying the old differential rewards is a simple quick-fix to how the game plays right now.

I still have no idea what you mean. Perhaps it's because you haven't been specific about how the differential rewards in GT5 you mention would be applied to GT6's career mode. Anyway, this thread is about introducing an automatc speed adjustment feature for the AI, that's all. Please keep the thread on topic.

I don't mind constructive criticism, but having to wade through epic post after epic post that adds nothing useful to the idea is getting tiresome.

 

[eran0004]

Interesting idea. Another way to do it could be to simply track the pace continuously in every race you do. If the average difference in time per kilometer between you and the AI is more than, say 1/10th of a second, the AI pace will be adjusted. If the standard pace that they start with is 100%, then that value could perhaps be adjusted down to 75% or up to 150%. The adjustment would be gradual and for the next race it would remember what pace it ended up with from the last race and begin from there.

Maybe it could also track how many mistakes you're doing and add a mistake factor to the AI too, so that they do about as many mistakes as you do... For instance, how close you stay to the ideal line, if you brake too early or too late, if you lock up your brakes, if you spin out, etc.

Edit: Now that I think of it, this is pretty much how it's done already. Although it doesn't remember the pace to the next race, or aims to replicates your errors. Also, if you're faster than the AI they don't pick up the pace as much as they would need to.

And because the races are so short and the AI starts way ahead of you, they always slow down far too much in order to let you have a chance to catch up. So the biggest changes they need to do are probably:

• having standing starts (or closer rolling starts)
• increase the distance of each race (and payout, please )
• increase the maximum possible pace of the AI
• remember the pace from last race to the next race and have the AI start at that

 

[Squanto]

@bluecharger I think I know what you are hinting at, why not make your own thread for that ... You know perfectly well how to describe what you envision for GT... I think more people play like you do and will support you on that ... The OP from @VBR describes only AI ... so please put your effort in a separate post because I too think the "career model" needs work ... and a thread with your vision could be a good starting point.

 

[86Debris86]

...never mind then...

@bluecharger I think I know what you are hinting at, why not make your own thread for that ... You know perfectly well how to describe what you envision for GT... I think more people play like you do and will support you on that ... The OP from @VBR describes only AI ... so please put your effort in a separate post because I too think the "career model" needs work ... and a thread with your vision could be a good starting point.

This.

Never mind then.

Not this.

 

[VBR]

Edit: Now that I think of it, this is pretty much how it's done already.

Yeah, it is. My idea of adjusting the speed of the AI before the race starts, would be so that we could get rid of the rubber band effect whereby cars speed up & slow down during the race. That way, we would get an actual race, not just have the AI slowing down to let us past, & then speeding back up to create the illusion of close racing.

 

[eran0004]

Yeah, it is. My idea of adjusting the speed of the AI before the race starts, would be so that we could get rid of the rubber band effect whereby cars speed up & slow down during the race. That way, we would get an actual race, not just have the AI slowing down to let us past, & then speeding back up to create the illusion of close racing.

That's essentially what my version is about as well. Only during the first races it would "adjust the rubber" because at that point it doesn't know how you perform. But gradually it will learn what your pace is and start at that, and then it's just minor adjustments from there on.

One problem is if more than one person are playing on the same account. But for that purpose maybe you could create several profiles (each with a different name) and just share the same garage. Like creating more B-spec drivers, but in "A-spec", and the AI performance would be tied to a specific profile.

 

[VBR]

That's essentially what my version is about as well. Only during the first races it would "adjust the rubber" because at that point it doesn't know how you perform.

I did mention in the OP that if a player wanted to skip Practice & Qually, the game would then work out your average lap time from race 1. My idea is about getting rid of the necessity of rubber banding entirely, & relegating it to a mere option.

The problem of different people playing on the same account wouldn't be a problem, as the AI would be adjusted before each race in a Championship, & not remembered afterwards. This is because players are faster on some tracks & slower on others.

 

[eran0004]

I did mention in the OP that if a player wanted to skip Practice & Qually, the game would then work out your average lap time from race 1. My idea is about getting rid of the necessity of rubber banding entirely, & relegating it to a mere option.

The problem of different people playing on the same account wouldn't be a problem, as the AI would be adjusted before each race in a Championship, & not remembered afterwards. This is because players are faster on some tracks & slower on others.

At first it would probably go a bit rollercoaster while searching for your pace, but after a few race it would have learned where your pace is and from there on you wouldn't notice that there is a rubberband.

The problem with rubberbands is when they don't learn from experience and they go rollercoaster in every race. Coupled with the fact that the races are short and the start distance is huge, it leaves them with very little time to adjust. This is not an issue with a rubberband that do learn from experience.

The problem with having practice and qualify sessions before every race is that it would take longer time to start a race. For those who wants a more in-depth experience it would maybe be a welcome change, but for those who just wants a quick race once in a while it would be an obstacle.

 

[VBR]

The problem with having practice and qualify sessions before every race is that it would take longer time to start a race. For those who wants a more in-depth experience it would maybe be a welcome change, but for those who just wants a quick race once in a while it would be an obstacle.

Like I've already said TWICE, practice & qually would be optional. Coming up with another idea isn't exactly helping me with mine, & that's what I asked for in this thread.

 

[eran0004]

Like I've already said TWICE, practice & qually would be optional. Coming up with another idea isn't exactly helping me with mine, & that's what I asked for in this thread.

I thought the goal was more important than the means. I'm just offering another way to achieve the same result.

Even if the qually and practice is optional, it's a process that you'd have to go through every time you want to race, if you want the best possible AI. I think that it would be better with a method that allows the AI to get to know you and your driving style and remember it from race to race. That way you'd have a good AI even if you don't want to go through practice and qualification every time.