Audi Confirms Electric GT Coupe for 2020 (But it Doesn't Look Good for the R8)

Discussion in 'Auto News' started by GTPNewsWire, Mar 15, 2018.

  1. TexRex

    TexRex

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    I would. I have no particular allegiance to VAG, any appreciation I do have is for products very far removed from the entity's current, or even going back 40 years, product range. That said, I don't have anything against their products either. I simply have yet to be wooed.

    I'm over "Dieselgate." They got caught and, from what I understand, a significant penalty was levied upon them.

    However, "new product offerings as penance" is, for me, a ship that just doesn't leave port.
     
  2. Matty28

    Matty28

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    So I posted a comment about sporty/super electric cars and you responded about comfort oriented luxury electric cars...
    Yeah I think there is and will be. My mum has a 2006 Lexus IS250 worth about £5k now and I have ridden in a 2012 Mercedes E-Class worth about £25k and the experience was the same except the van engine in the Mercedes.
    The differences are very slight and don't drastically change the driving experience. It's the same with anything - diminishing returns. You go from a Corsa to a Lexus and it's night and day. Go from a S-Class to a Rolls Royce and it isn't so massive.
    I was trying to work out why you were telling me all that. Clearly because we're talking about different things.

    I posted my opinion. You started arguing against it. And then out of the blue, you accuse me of this? Bit hypocritical?

    You don't have to think like me, but you should :tup:.


    I'll just copy and paste this again
    "But I suppose I have no idea about this one, if it does have A8 quality then whoohoo, buy an A8 instead."
    "For this model, we do not plan an electric A8. But in future [A8 models], yes." - Peter Fromm

    This is a reason to not buy a sports car, not a reason to buy an electric sports car.

    "The biggest difference between an A3 2.0 TDI and an R8 is the V10 sound and the straight line performance"
    As you can see, we're not talking about bargain basement city cars versus top end luxury. We're talking about sports/super versus entry/mid-level luxury. I would say there isn't a night and day difference even between an A3 and an Aston Martin sitting at 70mph. The biggest differences are the throttle response, power curve, turbolag, sheer power, traction, driven wheels, engine smoothness, gearchanges, how many gears and so on none of which matter on a motorway. You take all of that away the only difference is the Aston is 5 decibels quieter. Or is it with those wide tyres? So the point remains - what's the point in an electric sports car over an electric motorway car?



    They do matter if you're in the market for a sports car. If what I'm saying does matter, but the amount of seats etc do matter again why on earth are you looking for a sports car? The point remains - why would you choose this car over an A6 estate if you are motorway driving with a family? Why would you bother buying a second car that offers almost the exact same driving experience minus the practicality for a lot more money ESPECIALLY if you only sit on the motorway?

    Yes there is. The constant V8 growl both inside & outside, the ability to stamp on the throttle and take off, the ability to do burnouts with ease, the gearbox, the power curve, the look of the engine, the modifications and however they've affected it, the turbolag, the throttle response and more. All of which make it feel like a completely different animal. If you sit in a C200e and a C63e THEN there's no difference because every single one of those things is removed from the equation. The only remaining factor is the acceleration speed.

    There really aren't though. The experience is exactly the same, just the S is slightly better at that same experience.

    As I said, we're not doing that. We're comparing how a super expensive sports car has no unique feel compared to your average saloon for road driving. They are all AWD, they all have the batteries spread out across the bottom, they all have the same throttle response, they all have the same lack of a power curve, same lack of a sound, same character.



    So as we can see, even amongst the 4 cylinder diesel offerings of all sorts of Mercedes models, there's STILL way more variation in driving experience than electric cars. You've done it again lol.

    YES! The experience changes drastically from a Porsche Cayman to a Ford Mustang! It's completely unrecognisable! The difference between an electric version of the two??? In driving experience! Not build quality, not specifically sitting at 70mph!

    As I said "There's no gear ratios, amount of gears, type of gearbox, engine sound, exhaust sound, engine layout, type of engine, driven wheels, forced induction type, forced induction pressure, power curve, torque curve, rev limit and so on" so where is this massive difference coming from??? It can look different, it can have a brand on it, but it's all meaningless because the propulsion and driving is the same. Why have you glossed over this and accused me of saying "sound and speed"?

    Hybrid fine - go for it! It doesn't remove anything only adds power and reduces fuel consumption.
    Hell, even electric go for it - it is its own characteristic, it's just so hard to justify paying huge amounts more when it doesn't offer a unique feel at any speed or situation compared to an A6. And then when every car is electric then nothing separates your LaFerrari from your McLaren P1, and hardly anything separates it from your average mid-level luxury car. The LaFerrari has a naturally aspriated V12 with an electric motor, the P1 has a 3.8 tt flatplane V8 with an electric motor. Just think about how that changes the whole feel as you drive around even at low speed. I could justify owning both.

    And no I don't think there's much that separates an A4 2.0 TDI auto and a C200d auto which is why I am not remotely interested in them and would never pay £100k for a 2.0 TDI auto R8 just because it has more power.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2018
  3. TexRex

    TexRex

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    Lordy...
     
  4. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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    All I'm getting from that... mess is that someone hasn't driven any of the cars we're talking about, and I'm getting the sneaking feeling that they don't drive anything.
     
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  5. Sage Ages

    Sage Ages

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    What does the A3 have to do with any of this? :odd:
     
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  6. Matty28

    Matty28

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    I was getting the exact same feeling about you & your mess.

    Go on, post the pictures of you driving a Tesla, A3 2.0, A8, R8, new Audi electric sports car, Rolls Royce, Bentley Flying Spur and whatever else if I've forgotten something.

    I can tell you the engines and gearboxes make such a difference to the experience of driving my dad's Jeep Grand Cherokee, mum's Lexus IS250, and my Alfa 159. There's other differences but if you give them all 500bhp electric motors the difference is not very big and they lose a lot of their characters. And they're not even cars with such character as a Mustang...

    Yeah I have no idea what the A3 has to do with anything. It's not like it's an example car to get across the point that the biggest difference between your daily driver and your weekend car is the engine.

    No one has convinced me a 500bhp electric Aston Martin is worth paying £150k for over a 500bhp electric A6 estate for half that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2018
  7. TS050

    TS050 Premium

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    i hope you’re aware that you’re not making much sense at all right now
     
  8. Sage Ages

    Sage Ages

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    Ah yes, because all electric cars share the exact same configurations and motor/transmission setups.
     
  9. Matty28

    Matty28

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    I hope you're aware you can't just make statements like that without any explanation.

    Ah yes, because you can find electric cars with manual transmissions, sequential transmissions, automatic transmissions, single clutch semi-autos, dual-clutch semi autos, CVTs and "configurations" is specific and means something on planet zarg. Oh wait that's not quite right is it? Who wasn't making sense now?

    If you lot want to gloss over what I keep saying then maybe you'll listen to this guy? You cannot accuse him of not driving cars nor not making sense.


    None of that exists in electric cars. They all have instant throttle response. None of them have clutches. None of them have more than 1 gear. None of them have turbos. None of them have anything to differentiate between them.

    You can then compare with this section of this video and see just from a video how different it is. At least half of that difference is down to the engine and gearbox.


    Please for the love of god give a real answer not some meaningless dismissive "I am superior to you" nonsense. Tell me what gives a Porsche 911e a truly unique feel over a Mercedes AMG GTe. You can't say anything related to engines or gearboxes because there's no difference. I assume the only thing you can offer is styling, maybe there could be a slight difference in brakes and suspension.

    As a comparison I'll tell you what gives a 911 a truly unique feel compared with an AMG GT.
    The flat 6 gives
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2018
  10. Northstar

    Northstar Premium

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    Transmissions for electric cars are currently in development. They just haven’t been in any current cars because there hasn’t been a need for them up until now.

    http://www.thedrive.com/sheetmetal/...a-lot-faster-and-go-a-lot-further-on-a-charge

    There is also the fact that not all electric motors are the same.

    I highly suggest taking a break and doing some research on electric cars and how they work. It’s actually quite interesting.
     
  11. Matty28

    Matty28

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    If the technology changes to a point where there are significant differences like gearbox then I won't have this opinion anymore. I'm not sure why a different type of gearbox could ever be needed though. They usually suit different purposes at the moment and are better for different things, but with an electric motor it is already a jack of all trades as far as I can see in relation to gearboxes as there's no power curve, .

    Could you tell me how an electric motor in a Tesla feels different to an electric motor of the same power output in say, an Audi? I know there are different types and ways you can implement electric motors, but I'm not sure how they can feel drastically different. I think we have some experience with them with sim wheels. They don't really feel much different. I've had a CSR, TX, G29, TGT and TS-PC. Minor differences in smoothness perhaps. No question by a long margin the biggest difference is strength (compared to cars that's power output of course). Direct drive I haven't used so can't really compare but I assume they're slightly quicker and stronger again. I'm not sure how much difference that could make to the actual feel of operating them. Perhaps a direct drive would get to full power slightly quicker? I don't know but I'd expect all sports cars to have direct drive anyway, so it won't make any difference there.

    Absolutely, all technology is fascinating.
     
  12. Sage Ages

    Sage Ages

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    There's no reason why any of those couldn't be done. Obviously they're not exactly common (at least in production cars), but I'm sure when electric cars eventually become the majority, there will be a bit more choice in that matter, assuming that there is a demand for it.
     
  13. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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    My Tesla (Model X) and R8 (V10 Plus coupe) reviews are actually on this site... I never said Rolls Royce, but that's on AOL cars (it was the Dawn) - not sure it's got my byline, as it was a group test (or our "RTOTY") with several reviewers and several cars. I also never said A8, or "new Audi electric sports car" - which no-one has driven outside of Audi, as it doesn't exist yet.

    I've been an automotive writer and reviewer for six years. This week I have a Nissan 370Z and a Suzuki Ignis (delayed from last week due to the snow).
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2018
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  14. TexRex

    TexRex

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    Are they louder than a 500bhp sim steering wheel?

    :p
     
  15. Matty28

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    Famine: "someone hasn't driven any of the cars we're talking about"
    Famine: "More like an A8"
    Famine: "I also never said A8"
    Who was it writing the mess again?

    And you would genuinely buy that R8 Plus for £100k+ or whatever it is if it had the same propulsion method as the Tesla? What would it offer you for road driving? How would it differ driving to the shops? How would it differ on the motorway? Is a slight improvement in handling in twisty corners which represent let's say 5% of your driving worth £120k? Does it trump all of the characteristics it has now?

    You've still not talked about this which I have said twice:
    "gear ratios, amount of gears, type of gearbox, engine sound, exhaust sound, engine layout, type of engine, driven wheels, forced induction type, forced induction pressure, power curve, torque curve, rev limit". Let's add clutch feel, gearbox feel, gearbox speed, pops n bangs, gearbox sound, flames.
    Do you deny that these things make a car unique and characterful and represent different technical visions and are an art of engineering and are all the same or almost the same with electric cars?

    How has taking away the experience become the reason to buy a supercar? Why do people want to take the characteristics of a daily driver and apply them to supercars? Going to McDonalds for a salad comes to mind. Or paying £40 for gallery seats at a cinema to watch a subtitled movie.

    Two reasons would be inefficiency and technical pointlessness. I could maybe see someone like Caterham doing that because their brand is about making cars as raw and fun as possible, but I highly highly doubt any "normal" manufacturer would be doing that in a road car. Current gearbox selections have benefits and drawbacks making them suitable for different situations and not having one is not an option as far as I'm aware and that's the only reason we don't see them.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2018
  16. Famine

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    Still you:
    Indeed I specifically named the A8 as a car I hadn't driven. And quite where you got Rolls-Royce from escapes me entirely.

    "More like an A8" referred to the e-tron GT being more like an A8 than an A3, what with being a four-door, four-seat luxury car, rather than a five-door hatchback. Look:

    But the most important comparison here is the C200d and the C63 (which I've driven as the Edition One coupe and the C63S coupe; the latter is also on AOL cars, and I'm in the photos for that one but it's not my byline). In almost every single driving situation on the public roads, the two cars are identical. The major difference between the two is that the C63 is less comfortable - due to the larger wheels and smaller profile tyres - and thirstier. On a more minor point the C63 has a slightly more enticing interior, but the layout is broadly the same.

    If you're driving around town in stop-start traffic, or just ambling along a dual carriageway (or other part of the arterial road network), you may as well be in one as the other. There's a handful of occasions where there's any actual difference between the two: accelerating from one speed limit to a higher speed limit, a good fun road, braking heavily, poor weather and the traffic light grand prix.

    Now, I've only been driving for 22 years and I only cover about 30,000 miles a year recently, due to having to drive all these cars I test, but three of those situations are rather rare. Accelerating from 30mph to 70mph is unusual, but the C63 will do it in a couple of seconds (traction permitting) and the C200d in around six; that's rather a small proportion of your total driving time and not really enough to get excited about. Poor weather is a lot more common, and the C200d - partly down to the same tyre issue and partly due to the fact it has 400hp less - is much better. The C63 will spin its tyres in the wet in 4th with little provocation. I found the same in the S65 coupe too, only that did it in the dry.

    Most driving is sitting at a fairly constant speed, or slowing down for or speeding up from a junction, crossing, or traffic. For most driving, two cars that are from the same model range will be not meaningfully different.

    By comparison, two cars that are from different model ranges - even from the same manufacturer - are more meaningfully different. I've not driven the Model 3 yet, but it is quite clearly different from the Model S and Model X. The S and X are very similar, but the X's extra height makes for slightly different environments, and a bit more consideration at, for example, roundabouts.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2018
  17. Dave A

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    It's all relative isn't it. You have to consider so much more than just raw data when buying, driving, choosing a car. Obviousely something like an R8 isn't a car for the masses, it's expensive, but if I was super rich I'd probably have one in my collection. If it was electric it'd probably be a faster car than it is currently, which would probably appeal to a lot of people. If I was super rich I don't think I'd care about the £100k though. At the moment I'm looking for cars and £5k difference between models is a big consideration, so like I said it's relative. Each person will determine for themselves what they want from a car and if car a or car b is a better option for them.

    Of course all of that give a car character, but that doesn't mean an electric car can't have character becuase it doesn't have those things. Let's just imagine for a moment that the internalt combusion engine wasn't invented when it was and cars we're first made as electric cars. Then over 100 years later, someone comes up with internal combustion engine powered cars, do you think the reaction would be positive? It probably wouldn't and not just because of health and safety but because people in general hate change. I hated the idea of a car that you plug in and can only do a couple of hundred miles on a single charge but although I don't expect my next car to be electric, I do see myself buying on sooner rather than later.

    An electric car still has a steering mechanism, it still has suspension, acceleration, brakes, different drive trains and power distributions. Sure the lack of a throaty growl might be missed, but that's only because that's what we're used to and the images we associate with the sounds of what we might consider a nice car engine. If petrol cars had just come out recently into a market dominated by electric cars which had been the staple for 100 and odd years, I imagine people would be complaining about the engine noise rathe than liking it.

    Where I live I see a lot of Tesla's, there's a showroom in Knutsford which is about 15-20 min drive outside of rush hour. There are also McLaren, Lamborghni, Aston Martin and Ferrari dealerships within similar distances. I probably see more Tesla's than any of the others though.

    What puts me off the most about electric cars isn't the characteristics of them, it's the cost of having to replace the batteries, though those costs are reducing.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2018
  18. Matty28

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    So you're not in a position to comment on electric supercars/GT cars/sports cars either then by your logic. Got it.

    Yeah, so you're still not understanding what I said there for some reason. I can't be bothered explaining it again. You probably didn't even read it last time suggested by your lack of a response.

    And you're still not letting me know how the following differences can be found between electric vehicles or what replaces them to give a unique character to the way a vehicle feels to the driver:
    "gear ratios, amount of gears, type of gearbox, engine sound, exhaust sound, engine layout, type of engine, driven wheels, forced induction type, forced induction pressure, power curve, torque curve, rev limit". Let's add clutch feel, gearbox feel, gearbox speed, pops n bangs, gearbox sound, flames."
    What makes the feeling and experience of an electric M3 so different to an electric C63???

    That's what I'm doing. I'm looking at the feeling and the way you interact with the car and the experience of driving it, not the power output or the top speed.

    If people are totally obsessed with the way a car looks but not too fussed about another, that might make it worth it if they're minted. I mean, people pay £200 for a t-shirt. But one cannot deny a huge portion of what differentiates cars is lost with electric power. Would you really get collectors with 20 cars? I'm not saying they won't have anything to differentiate them at all - the suspension setups can still be completely different and chassis stiffness and steering feel (sort of, it is reported that most cars have dead steering now) , just that there aren't that many things left. And I'm not saying they don't have a unique feel - electric is unique itself - just not very unique between each electric car. They may have different drivetrains, but how can you tell while driving? They don't really have different power distributions - they're all AWD unless they're bargain basement cars or race cars. Of course like with the gearbox, a manufacturer like Lotus could deliberately put that inefficiency in purely for fun.

    Yep I'm sure the majority would hate the sound, but that's the same as today except the car community really. I suspect we wouldn't have a car community that looks anything like it does today. I think it would be more like the tech and fashion community combined. The whole enthusiasm about its workings and how it feels wouldn't really exist. I would expect we would have fans of racing but not fans of the cars themselves in the same way. I'm not sure anyone would go to watch cars go past or have so many YouTube channels about cars. I don't think there would be weekly car meets where people rev their cars, look at each others mods, do burnouts, talk about their cars etc. Who is enthusiastic about the circuit board inside a phone? I don't see any tech people commenting on that or any channels about that. It's amazing but not as enjoyable somehow? Nothing moves, nothing makes a sound, it just sits there. I think if petrol cars were released today, some would still be into that idea of moving parts all working in tandem with sounds and sights you can hear and feel. That's how humans interact after all. Sex isn't about sitting still in silence.

    I'm sure associations influence what we think to an extent - do I really like V12s more than 4 cylinders or is it just my association with the Honda Jazz versus the Lamborghini Murcielago? But I also recognise that I don't associate the electric sound (or lack of a sound) with the Nissan Leaf any more than I do the 700bhp Tesla or some of the race cars that exist. They are cool, but I'm still not interested in interacting with them anywhere near as much. I mean, it's like watching a film with the sound off or reading the lyrics to a song instead of listening. An average speed car can be great if the sound blows you away but you really need F1 speeds for an electric car to do anything as it goes past. Anyone seeing video #2 is either going to go "OMG WOW" or "OMG HORRIBLE" while anyone seeing video #1 is likely going to not have a reaction whether they associate them with anything or not. It's a roller coaster versus a golf cart in terms of experience.


    When I search "formula e flyby", that's the first video. 325 views...
    When I search "murcielago gt1", there are more videos most with over 100k.
    Or better yet - search "Z4 GT3" and compare views and number of results. No one actually wants to watch the FE cars, they just want the racing or the tech. (btw, flyby because otherwise you just get race videos not car videos)

    I think Tesla does battery replacements for free within a long warranty but once that warranty is up, I think most electric cars will be worthless once people realise they've got a guaranteed £5-20k bill coming up at any time in the near future. So 1st owner for a few years then sell it with plenty of life left or keep it longer and then it goes in the bin or someone buys it for 90% less like a phone.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018
  19. Famine

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    Depending on what you class as an electric supercar, there's none. Depending on what you class as an electric sports car, there's one - which I haven't driven. Depending on what you class as an electric GT car, there's two - and I've driven both.

    And at the risk of reiterating myself, there's more of a difference in regular, everyday driving between the Tesla Model S and the Tesla Model X than there is between the Mercedes-Benz C200d and the Mercedes-AMG C63S. If you extend that to the Model S 75 (now discontinued) and any Model X, you even get the difference of RWD vs AWD...


    There's been two very limited production electric supercars to date. They are - with some irony given the start of this weird conversation - the Audi R8 e-tron and the Rimac Concept_One.

    Audi made 100 of the R8 e-tron. These used a pair of motors, one driving each rear wheel - yes, it was rear-wheel drive - through a single speed planetary reduction gearboxes. Combined they were worth 456hp and 679lbft, with 0-60mph coming up in just under four seconds and 140mph flat out.

    Rimac made eight of the Concept_One - seven survive. These used four motors, one to drive each wheel, allowing for four-wheel drive with active torque vectoring and replacing traction control, stability control and ABS, along with four-wheel regenerative braking. The front motors drove the front wheels through single speed planetary reduction gearboxes, but the rear motors each drive a two-speed double-clutch gearbox, with F1-grade carbon-fibre clutchs. The motors all add up to 1,088hp, with 0-60mph in 2.4 seconds and a claimed 221mph top speed.

    Despite the fact that these are the only two vehicles ever to come close to production electric supercars, I think they probably have enough differences in gear ratios, amount of gears, type of gearbox, driven wheels, power curve, torque curve, rev limit, clutch feel, gearbox feel, gearbox speed and gearbox sound for anyone to say "they're different". But I'm sure they're all the same really.

    As neither car exists, I'm not sure anyone can say.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018
  20. homeforsummer

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  21. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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    Ah, the first gen! I don't think that we ever got to - not a very dealer-relevant car :lol:
     
  22. Sage Ages

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  23. TexRex

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    All this emphasis on differences in experience...

    In the United States, two of the best selling vehicles of the last...I mean...30 years?...are the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord. When you look at each generation, there isn't a whole lot of difference between the two from an experiential perspective, and yet scores of buyers choose the Camry over the Accord and scores of buyers choose the Accord over the Camry.

    I think I have a grasp on why, but to the one pushing the importance of experience...why? Why do people choose one over the other?
     
  24. Matty28

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    Exactly, so your opinion is not based on any experience and thus is not worth any more than mine when predicted whether an electric GT is worth buying as well as/instead of an electric sports luxury car.

    I highly doubt that. But if you'd like, you can finally note down all the differences in driving experience between the Tesla Model S and the Tesla Model X. Or maybe the Model 3 and the Model S. Does it sound different? Is one smoother than the other? Are you able to powerslide out of a slow corner? Are you able to change gears in one of them? Does one respond to your throttle input faster? What feels different about the powertrains between the slowest Tesla and the fastest apart from the power?

    You've got to recognise that everything you just stated with the Rimac and e-R8 are also true with petrol cars and more. I would also say the technology is in its infancy and most of the cars we see now are testing different things out to see what is most efficient. Think about how varied petrol cars were in the early 1900s.

    "The front motors drove the front wheels through single speed planetary reduction gearboxes, but the rear motors each drive a two-speed double-clutch gearbox, with F1-grade carbon-fibre clutchs"
    How can you feel this while driving?

    They don't have different gear ratios, certainly not ones you can feel. They don't have amount of gears - they mostly have 1. They are mostly AWD and I'm pretty confident that we will hardly ever seen RWD or FWD electric cars since that is less efficient (excluding cheap city cars). The batteries are spread across the floor of the cars - you can connect them straight to the wheels. There is no need for weight distribution and power loss with a conventional transmission system.

    They don't have a power or torque curve or rev limit - they are on or off. This is because they don't have revolutions, they are solid state. The only potential difference is how quick the electric motor speeds up from nothing, but this looks to be microscopic if you watch Tesla 0-60s. There is no clutch dump at the right moment with the right revs minimising wheelspin and changing at the right moment, there is just press the accelerator.

    They don't have a clutch or gearbox feel or speed because they don't have user controlled clutches and most don't have clutches at all and most don't have more than 1 speed. They may have a gearbox sound, but I can't really hear much difference and I'm not sure which is electric motor and which is gearbox e.g. in FE their noise sounds like it could be either or both.

    I literally just said there are still reasons to choose between them, but not as many.

    You're talking about people who couldn't care less about cars. People who go "ooh that's a nice colour and it's got bluetooth" not people who go "well I love the way it revs so high and fast and it sounds thunderous, it gives a real race car feel". There is no enthusiasm here. They're not interested in cars. If teleportation existed they wouldn't own a car. How many of those Camry owners own both a Camry AND an Accord? Zero? How many own both a Ford Mustang AND a Honda S2000? Probably quite a few. Of course there is still a reason to pick an R8 Etron over a 488 electric but why would you own both??
     
  25. TexRex

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    So why would a buyer choose one over the other? You explained why someone would buy one of the two instead of something else entirely, and this decision isn't the least bit lost on me, but you didn't explain why a buyer would choose "cottage cheese A" over "cottage cheese B."

    And why would anyone bother having both in the refrigerator? I can understand why one might have both cottage cheese and a pitcher of orange juice--that's not what I'm talking about here.
    If both offer the same thing on paper, why does an individual choose one over the other?

    Say the refrigerator at work only offers a set amount of space to each employee, and I've decided I want to take a tub of cottage cheese. Only that one tub will fit the space. Now there are two brands on the same shelf, right next to one another in the store cooler...both have the same ingredients, have the same nutritional value and cost the same. There's blueberry yogurt in the next compartment; sure it's more expensive but it probably tastes better and it occupies the same space in the company fridge...but I've decided on cottage cheese. How do I decide which cottage cheese to get?

    Edit: Isn't that what you're getting at here? If all electric cars are the same (they're not), why would someone pick a proposed Audi over a Tesla?

    Edit: No, nevermind. You know, I thought it was unnecessarily argumentative when @Famine suggested you don't actually drive, but I now think he was onto something. You're talking about video games, aren't you? That's why you have so much room in your garage. It explains the mention of sim racing wheels as well. You got a Tesla by completing a license challenge and you can use that for EV races, so why bother spending credits on an electric Audi? You need a Mustang for races limited to cars with a V8 and an S2000 for those similarly restricted to 4-cylinder cars. Plus they send different noises out through the speakers. With EVs you only hear the squealing of the tires regardless of how much power it has.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018
  26. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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    So... nope.
    So... nope.
    So... nope.
    So... nope. And all of that was in the post you quoted - you literally quoted the evidence that denied the points you then tried to make...
    Why is it relevant? Just like your comment about flames, you're talking about things so far outside of normal driving that it's absurd. And again, at the risk of repetition:
    You're talking about driving on the public roads in a manner that's more akin to track driving, wringing every ounce of performance out all the time, sliding it about, getting flames licking out of the exhaust. That's not normal driving, that's convictions and accidents waiting to happen.

    Normal driving is sitting at a fairly constant speed around (but not necessarily below; usually about 10% +2mph faster) the local limit, changing speeds around junctions or crossings, or creeping along in stop-start traffic.

    When you're doing that, the only difference between a C200d and a C63 is the firmer ride, worse fuel economy, marginally improved 40-60mph acceleration time and slightly smarter interior of the AMG. The difference between a Model S and a Model X is the difference between sitting in a 2-ton saloon car and a 2.2-ton SUV - although the layout is as similar as the layouts of the C200d and C63 are. A very close comparison would be the difference between the C and the GLC of the same grade and engine.

    And with all three cars and their three alternatives (all of which I have driven; the GLC has a horrible lane keeping assist I could never work out how to fully turn off), you may as well be in one as the other, although the two SUVs certainly do feel different to the two saloons - thanks alone to the ride height and brake and suspension differences required to manage the higher roll centre.
     
    Quakebass, VXR and TexRex like this.
  27. TexRex

    TexRex

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    Of course if these experiences are indeed so missed, I can almost imagine a cottage industry forming around products that reproduce them.

    On the low end, you've got vent clips that, instead of smelling like banana-nut bread, smell like glowing-hot ceramic clutches.

    Mid-range? How about a subwoofer under the seat triggered to produce a "poompf" when you lift off the throttle after sustained heavy engagement...to simulate the aforementioned burning of unspent fuel in the exhaust.

    And for those with money to burn, I'll sell you a wireless "shifter" that sits in your console cupholder and talks to a clever bit of programming in the motor's control module, telling it to interrupt power delivery until the next lever position is triggered.

    Now there may also be those who long for an ICE car that has been poorly maintained, if at all, so you've got vent clips that smell like unspent fuel, reservoirs that leak fluids onto your driveway so that you have to break out the kitty litter and gasoline to draw them out of the concrete, and nifty computers that tell your car to sputter and lurch down the road.

    This industry isn't limited to products, though. No, I envision boutique establishments where you pay a few thousand dollars to rent space on a hydraulic lift while you wait inside and staff do absolutely nothing to your car because it was fine. You have to go next door to use a restroom, though.
     
  28. Matty28

    Matty28

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    So... Yes.

    This car is silver and it goes 0-60 in 34 seconds. This other car is silver and goes 0-60 in 20 seconds. SEE! Different colours!

    The rest are worthless unrealistic technicalities. Most hybrids and electric cars are AWD.
    You can't tell the difference either proven by your repeated refusal to describe how it feels equally different when you plant the throttle in a car with 1 or 2 speeds compared to a car with a 9 speed auto and a 6 speed manual.
    A little powerslide out of a car show is not taking a car to its limit on a twisty road lol. Sorry you think your engine knows it's on a public road and doesn't produce flames?
    No, normal driving is speeding up and slowing down constantly with the flow of traffic, lights, corners, overtaking, tractors and so on.

    Yeah I guess the rumbling V8 doesn't exist in Famine's world, nor does the throttle response, smoothness or lack thereof, pops and bangs. He glosses over those part. The difference between the Tesla is you sit a bit higher. And yet again - MODEL S VS MODEL 3 NOT MODEL X. So as I said, more differences, more special experience, getting your moneys worth even in traffic with a C63. You go from a C63 to a LaFerrari and you are transported into another world even in traffic. You go from a Tesla S to a Rimac and you're not. You go from a C200 to a C63 and you get a different experience. You go from a slow S to a fast S and you don't. Simple.
    Sure but that's independent from engines. I am seeking how electric propulsion methods feel different from each car. You've still not given me anything. You've told me of technical differences e.g. a 1 speed and a 2 speed dct but not how you can feel that while driving.

    I can tell you my Alfa Romeo 159's manual gearbox is notchy, medium throw, precise, sometimes difficult when cold. The clutch doesn't have that much feel so starts can be a bit jerky. It's not too difficult to heel + toe either, although the engine could be a little more responsive from a light tap (at the expense of smooth driving). All of that is quite rewarding to get right. 1.4 tdci Fiesta is incredibly easy and imprecise by comparison and the clutch has more feel. The Fiesta dumps quite a bit of torque early in the rev range and then has absolutely nothing towards the top end. It was the same with my dad's Jeep - 3/4 throttle was hardly any different to full throttle, a characteristic of diesel. The Alfa has absolutely nothing until about 1200rpm when suddenly it starts moving at a reasonable pace and the power builds towards 6k. My mum' Lexus has power from the get-go but the gearbox is obsessed with shortshifting unless you really put your foot down. My Alfa makes noise at any RPM as well as a few other noises which gives it a more sporty raw feel and makes you more aware of the machine you are operating and the engine gives a raw angry noise towards the mid part of the rev range. I find that really fun. But I also appreciate how the Lexus is completely silent and totally smooth at low-rpm, it's quite an amazing achievement for a 12 year old entry level luxury car, while still being able to give a glorious V6 note towards the second half of the RPM band. That gives it a more luxurious and quality feel but also can make it feel a bit dull around town while the Alfa is still enjoyable. It would sound awesome with an exhaust mod, but not in the car's character. The Jeep's V6 diesel was always audible and it almost gave me a V12 feel, it had a smooth burbly yet also agricultural sound. It was fun when you just take off from a standstill, the front rises up, you get this noise and this surge of torque. Plus. you could hear this turbo whoosh echoing off the walls. It felt lazy, agricultural yet powerful. Very fitting for a 4x4. The throttle response was best from the Alfa - pretty much instant. The Lexus was fairly instant but didn't give you anything due to the gearbox and the Jeep was a bit slow being turbocharged.

    Now it's your turn to write that about the Tesla Model 3 and the Tesla Model S. And don't come up with some nonsense that isn't true.
     
  29. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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    Crikey.
    You rather missed the point there that these excerpts about literally the only two electric supercars even close to production show they have radically different gearing, disproving your claim that electric supercars don't have different gearing.

    (just in case you're thinking the R8 e-tron is aero limited and it's just the Rimac's extra power that gives it the extra speed, you'd be out by around 65%. Just to save you the math).

    Which also happen to prove you wrong. Despite your claim otherwise, performance electric cars have been RWD and 4WD, and have used both multi-speed gearboxes and single-speed.

    Most electric cars are FWD, but that's because they're city cars that you don't want to talk about (although the smart electric was RWD, as was the Mitsubishi/Peugeot/Citroen MiEV/iOn/C-Zero). The fast stuff is literally:
    Tesla Model S - RWD, AWD
    Tesla Model X - AWD
    Tesla Roadster - RWD

    Plus the non-production:
    Audi R8 e-tron - RWD
    Detroit Electric SP01 - RWD
    Lightning GT - RWD
    NIO EP9 - AWD
    Rimac Concept_One - AWD
    Rimac C_Two - AWD
    Venturi Fetish - RWD

    Whether you count non-production cars or not, it's pretty much a 50:50 mix of RWD and AWD. You are demonstrably wrong to claim otherwise.

    Oh there's a whole load of wrecked Ford Mustangs who'll tell you different. And every organiser of every car show ever, who don't want people powersliding as they leave because it's rude, annoys the neighbours, gives them a bad reputation and, in the UK, is actually illegal. It's also not normal driving. Whether your car can powerslide for a few yards as you leave a car show is not relevant to the overwhelming majority of the average 10,000 miles a year.
    All ICE produce flames, they just tend to stay within the cylinder (hence "internal combustion"). To get flames out of the exhaust you need a car that is running very badly rich, a significant full-throttle run and hard shift up in a very powerful car (I've managed it, at a private venue, in a McLaren 650S), or an illegal flamer kit. That'd be bad maintenance, an unroadworthy car or behaviour well beyond normal driving. Whether your car produces flames or not in the single situation of blasting it through first gear for two seconds is not relevant to the overwhelming majority of the average 10,000 miles a year.
    Agrees, but starts with "No,". Good work.
    Corners do indeed happen quite often, but if you're going round an NSL bend at 60mph in Car A, it's not likely to be significantly different if you do it in Car A Sport. Overtaking happens occasionally too - I do it quite a bit for practice - but I'm more than happy to tell you that the majority of the space you need for any overtake is visual space and almost entirely independent of the amount of power your car can produce. And of course since you should never exceed the speed limit, even in an overtake (or +10% +2mph if you're outside North Wales) you only need enough power to safely reach the limit in the process. With the right sight lines and good observation, a 1995 Mazda MX-5 needs very little more space to pull off a pass as a McLaren 570S does - and yes, I've picked those two cars for a very good reason. The quicker a car is, the less your Time Exposed To Danger is up to the speed limit, but you still need the sight lines; the Vanishing Point is key. If you're relying on the performance of a car to get you through an overtake and over the limit, it wasn't a safe overtake in the first place.

    Ironically, an electric performance car is very good at minimising Time Exposed To Danger, thanks to that electric motor torque and lack of decision making about gearing. In fact I think that other than the Model X, the quickest car for a cheeky pass I've been in is an Ariel Atom 300 - though I didn't drive it.

    I'm not sure what "tractors" means. Presumably you mean overtaking them, but then much of what's above about overtaking in general applies. On most occasions, the tractor driver will use his elevated position of the road and signal when it's safe to pass. Again though, encountering tractors is surprisingly rare. I've lived in East Anglia, where there's a lot of them, and Kent where there's quite a few but less, and on the edge of both the Yorkshire Dales and the North York Moors. I've spent a significant amount of time actually in farms, most recently at several riding stables attached to farms because my eldest child likes horse riding. I'd guess that I've been behind tractors no more than four times this year, for no more than a mile in total of the 7,000 I've driven so far - so "tractors" is relevant to 0.014% of my normal driving.


    As I said, you're talking about situations so far beyond normal driving that it's hard to imagine you actually think that's what driving is. I earlier suspected that you don't drive and have a teenager's imagination of what regular driving on public roads is, but as you say you have an Alfa Romeo 159 and I have no reason to cast any doubt on that, if you actually drive like that you must have the most incredible luck to have escaped points, convictions or accidents so far.

    Exists, but not relevant. In normal driving, what noises your V8 makes compared to a six-pot diesel doesn't come into it. Sat at 1,500rpm, you may as well have a lawnmower engine under the nose given all of the sound deadening in modern cars. When it comes to smoothness and throttle response, the engines (if we're talking about the C200d and C63 again) are hiding away behind an advanced dual-clutch automatic gearbox - you stamp on the pedal and everything is taken care of, then you accelerate.

    As for pops and bangs, I'm afraid we're back at flames. I drove an i30N recently, and that had a pops and bangs setting in the N-Mode. It made the exact same pops and bangs every time. I rather liked it, but N-Mode also produced a rather hard ride (one bump bounced my foot off the clutch) and a terrible fuel economy, so it wasn't used that much. I think other than picking the kids up from school, but I wouldn't recommend choosing a car for how it sounds because it attracts children.

    That's a lot more difference than you get between sitting still in traffic in a C-Class and then sitting still in traffic in another C-Class with carbon-fibre air vents.
    And yet again, I've not driven the Model 3. Look:
    Although I can tell you that the interior environment of the Model 3 is significantly different from the Model S and Model X. As you'd expect at 40% of the price.
    On what basis do you think this? I mean, I agree with you, but I suspect not for the reasons you're thinking. I'm thinking "Well, the LaFerrari has a full EV mode you can use in traffic, but a tiny glass house and terrible over-the-shoulder visibility...".

    I drove a couple hundred miles in a Ferrari 488 GTB last year (not a La Ferrari, but at least we're ball park). I did a good chunk of it down the M3 and, at a constant 70mph (+10%, +2mph) cruise it wasn't really much different than the Mondeo TDCI estate I'd driven the opposite direction in a few hours earlier. The Mondeo had a nice infotainment system and the DAB didn't keep cutting out, and it wasn't as petrifying in the wet, but the 488 had a nicer general interior ambiance. And no back seats or boot, obviously. And I had to pay a bit more attention to the cats' eyes when changing lanes, although I tend to do that anyway. I later drove a few of the same roads in the 488 that I did in the C63 and, guess what, in normal driving it was much of a muchness. From my recollection, neither had much steering lock, and I had to pick a route around the "ambulance friendly" speed bumps in both.

    Got some filthy looks in both too. People really seem to hate Ferraris, and the C63 was matte grey with a pair of bright yellow stripes up it, and yellow flashes on the wheels.

    Oh, you mean stuff like electric cars don't have multi-gear gearboxes, don't have different gear ratios and are mostly AWD? That sort of nonsense that isn't true?
     
  30. Matty28

    Matty28

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    My point is you can't tell from the driving experience. There is one car with two gears on the rear and one gear on the front and all the rest have one gear. You win! What variation! This means there will always be all sorts of gearing combinations in the future I'm sure...

    maths*

    Haha so every RWD example is discontinued or experimental. Good job!
    "As we reported last week, the move appears to have something to do with better differentiating the base version of Model S with the new Model 3, which is now the only Tesla model offered with a single rear-wheel drive motor." - electrek
    Not much of a difference between the models aside from power so they had to put one in!

    Do you see why your logical/technical information does not really represent the real meaning?

    The reason we're not talking about city cars is because there clearly is a big difference between anything cheap and anything well made. They're FWD simply because it's cheaper to have two motors rather than 4 and they lack the power to find any benefit in AWD anyway, not because of a different design philosophy or intended character/experience. My whole argument is that there's hardly any noticeable difference to the driving experience between expensive electric sports luxury like an Audi A6 and more expensive electric GT like the Audi e-tron in the original article.

    Jees, there's being sensible and then there's being a killjoy. Usually there aren't neighbours to retail parks. Every organiser of every car meet* ever don't want people doing that to cover their backsides if anything goes wrong. It's just a disclaimer. If they are seen to encourage it they get banned instantly. I suppose it isn't normal driving though, you're right. This glorious unintended evidence of mechanics being pushed to the limit is fantastic!


    Ooh look, you've done it again! Car A and Car A Sport feel the same in the corners - the point I've been making over and over again, nullifying handling as a reason to own a second car for general driving! Thanks for confirming you do actually agree after all.

    You don't want to break any speed limits overtaking, so even the power difference is not worth bothering with!

    So we've established that the differences between cars handling and speed is not really worth much so that leaves even less to differentiate between expensive electric cars, as I have been saying all along. Well, I actually said the power was a reason, but you don't even think that is! If I have no trouble overtaking with 185bhp, you don't need 700bhp.
    I see tractors loads, where I live there are flat fields everywhere used for farming and it's not the countryside. I probably met 4 tractors in the 1 weeks holiday to Yorkshire last year...
    Yeah, I do all sorts of powerslides in my FWD 185bhp 1500kg saloon...

    I would happily do a little powerslide onto an empty dual carriageway though if I had a C63.

    Uhh, yes it does. Every time you push the throttle you can hear that growl. Listening to a Range Rover SVR drive away from me was the highlight of a journey of mine a while ago.


    (9:09 omg call the cops! He's having fun you couldn't have in an electric car)

    Manufacturers are on the one hand enhancing the experience while on the other hand covering it up. Each generation gets quieter in the cabin giving it a more docile boring feel, turbocharging across the board is less interesting, makes sounds more similar and quieter, reusing engines in so many different cars (that bloody Volkswagen V8 is in something like 10 different models now, as good as it is), but then they're adding pops and bags, louder exhausts from factory, sportier gearboxes (the C5 RS6 is a joke in comparison to today), sharper (albeit dead) steering, directing engine sound into the cabin etc. I suppose there are three reasons - they have to appear to offer the latest greatest thing otherwise no one will buy it, and they are also being limited by green laws, and these cars do have a split personality Regarding reuse of engines - that is obviously about business efficiency.
    Alright so do it S vs X. Describe the different experience in-depth of the powertrain like I did.
    It's hard to explain but I think there are 4 main things:
    1) Looks
    2) Sound
    3) Interior & shape of what is around you
    4) Knowledge of what you are in
    5) feeling of interaction with it
    The Rimac for example has 1) and 3) but 2) is gone completely and 4) is I suppose subjective but for me it is mostly gone - as I said earlier some batteries and some motors is is just not that impressive compared to an intricately designed 12 cylinder engine and related components, 5) a lot of the feeling is taken out, but it does have its own feeling, just that it's hardly distinguishable to a Tesla. Good tech but bad entertainment. Just like a quartz watch versus a tourbillon.

    You will get filthy looks in a Ferrari because the majority of people who buy them are poser show offs who have no interest in cars and couldn't tell the difference between a Mondeo and a 488GTB (not saying you are a poser but... you seem to own an R8 given you don't seem to value or even recognise anything it offers and are unable to feel anything driving a 488). Exactly the same as many Rolex buyers, and people who buy £20,000 bottles of wine. That and also general hatred of the rich.

    I know this is not a LaFerrari or a 488, but let's take it to extremes to try to get the point across.


    Try to imagine being in those two cars. Surely you can understand how it feels so different even when they're just driving slow?

    It's all fake so may as well just do VR sim racing.

    Lotus, Ferrari, TVR etc might make ICE cars no one can afford.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018