Ban on car duplication?

[Destinkeys]

Why don't you try to convince PD to unlock all cars (or at least all cars corresponding to your A-Spec level) in Arcade mode? Then (and only then) they can ban 'duping'!

Actually, on this thread (I think, I'm beginning to lose count of them!) and probably several others, I HAVE made that exact point.

Also, see my sig... I think a return of another 400 A-Spec events removes the need to grind whatsoever. Plus, that would be another 400 cars you could WIN, rather than buy.

Trust me, I have no desire whatsoever to stop anyone playing this game at home, offline, any way they see fit. Put your Veyron up against a Fiat500! No skin off MY nose!

I DID get into a wee bit of trouble by suggesting that, if your idea actually came into fruition (and, BTW, I believe that PD are paying FAR more attention than you give them credit for... It didn't take long to get an unprotected save, and it didn't take long for the Seasonals to be neutered after the general protest at how HARD they thought they were!) we might quickly find out whether those that SAY they just want all the cars unlocked JUST to drive them around in Arcade Mode would actually be satisfied if that were the case.

Hopefully, we might one day find out! Updates are on their way...

 

[chippy1000]

You failed to quote the part actually explaining the question. It's not about ONE car. It's about a person's entire garage. That's what gives a duper an edge, not the individual cars.

Sorry but I feel like I need to add something to this.

I dont see how having more cars would give any advantage because you can only drive any one car at a time, and there are plenty of people out there that have as good of a collection as those who duped but the only difference is the dupers have not spent stupid amounts of time grinding indy etc. over and over, I really cant see why you think there is any advantage on the track, the only advantage gained by someone duping is not boring themselves to death with the grind.

 

[niky]

Mysterious R: Watch it, please.

---

What gives dupers an edge? Being able to practice with cars that they didn't grind to get?

Said grinding, which, by the way, helps them develop the skills to be competitive online?

It's an argument you can cut either way. More grinding = more (theoretical) practice with grind-cars. Less grinding = more (theoretical) practice with traded-cars.

I've done enduros. Hours of going around the track, practicing metronome consistent driving just for another measly 150k in credits. How is a guy who duped for an F1 going to beat me in a race if he hasn't even finished the Sunday Cup?

The only advantage is that theoretically, you qualify for more races online. But what of it? Many people specialize in one subset of cars. Your typical "duper" will be racing with X2010s and Veyrons online. Your typical hardcore user, who will have "earned" all his cars, will be the one to benefit more from that extended garage when he races with his precious 10m credit Alfa Zagato.

The guys with more toys aren't always going to win online. It's the guys who spend forever at their console... hours, days, weeks... who are nearly unbeatable. These guys do nothing but race.

Am I whingeing on and on about not being able to win the Time Trials or certain online races because I can't basically quit work and drive 24/7 to get to this level of competition? No. I recognize that it's absolutely pointless.

And that has nothing to do with duplication, and everything to do with the three "P's".

Practice, practice, practice.

 

[amar212]

Although this replay will get lost in future discussions I will type it nonetheless.

How exactly would you stop the duping? That is my main and primary question?

Only way you can do it is to remove one of the functionalities of the game, crafted for legit players and than prevent access to community/utility functions for all players in total.

You can do the following:

a) remove the "Gift" function? > which would harm all the communities of friends outthere that are using this function to gift their friends different cars or exchange the cars for the A/B spec races or online. So, no.

b) remove the "backup game save" feature? > which is another disaster because you would actually harm everybody forever. Big NO.

c) PD could write down new "car license.plate" sub-code which would give to every car actually bought an unique "code" (call it license-plate) and disable usage of the car with the same "license-plate". But, there is no way in Universe you could find a algorithm that would do justice in both offline and online realm, since many players do not have their console always connected to online. Thus, in some moment there is high possibility that algorithm in different consoles would produce multiple same "license-plates" and in moment those players would go online they would be punished for it. Extremely unlikely.

d) you could limit the some kind of car-ID to unique MAC-address of one console - AKA console where car is initially bought - but not only you would compromise TOS of PS3 and PSN usage, but you would also make unrepairable damage to all players which could sustain malfunction of their PS3, thus making "backup save" option obsolete in perspective. Highly unlikely.

Of course, option d) could be easily exploited by duping cars among 2 PS3 consoles with the same PSN ID profile attached - I have 2 PS3's and I could do it easily for instance - but than again it makes no real sense, because it would make the Trade even more elitist, resulting only with more ridiculous "price" for rare cars.

I really see no point in removing/applying any of above, because in the end it would harm majority of player that do not even care about the duping.

 

[Destinkeys]

Sorry but I feel like I need to add something to this.

I dont see how having more cars would give any advantage because you can only drive any one car at a time, and there are plenty of people out there that have as good of a collection as those who duped but the only difference is the dupers have not spent stupid amounts of time grinding indy etc. over and over, I really cant see why you think there is any advantage on the track, the only advantage gained by someone duping is not boring themselves to death with the grind.

For starters, many of those with large legit garages didn't necessarily grind Indy over and over. There are MANY. many different ways to get cr. in the game. Indy is just the lazy way to do it. Often, those with large legit garages have come about because they RACED for the cr., giving themselves huge experience and skill for doing it. Seat time, unless you do the easiest of grinds, usually equates to better skill.

If you are bored, it is because you are deliberately not looking for a challenge.

And, I don't know how many times I have to explain this, but online is VERY diverse. It's not like there are two or three basic types of races, and once you have two or three well tuned and competitive cars you are good to go. There can be hundreds of different races running, with dozens, or even hundreds of different restrictions. Those with the largest, most diverse, most upgraded (remember, duping allows you to have every tire in the game for every car you own at no cost - that alone is millions, and we haven't even TOUCHED varying HP or exhausts, weight reductions, etc.) garages have a larger choice to choose from.

Now, if you arbitrarily restrict yourself to just a few types of racing, sure, the non-duper plays an even field. But if you like racing at ALL levels, across a wide range of different types of car, the duper has the edge. Mind you, so does the skilled player who has earned all his cars. But I don't mind him that edge. He earned it! Good for him (or her)!

But taking advantage of PD's unwillingness to let us dangle with a sword over our careers and garage (like EA did with Shift... no way to backup your garage with Shift, but no way to cheat it, either) to gain an advantage online just isn't cricket, you know..! If duping ONLY gets you an Arcade drive, then fine. I'm all for it. But when it gains you an edge online, that's when it starts to irk...

 

[CarolinaBlue704]

I have no idea how you can come to the conclusion that duping gives you an advantage online.

For one, if someone beat you in an online race you have no idea how many cars they own.

And two, you have no idea rather the person who beat you "duped" their cars or not.

So without knowing this, how can you come to the conclusion that duping gives you an advantage? To me, it sounds like an argument that's lacking evidence.

 

[vatanen ari]

Hi all,
just wanted to add my stone to the edifice, or my pinch of salt or whatever...
I don't dupe for the simple reason that I can't be bothered to do all the save/ delete save paraphenalia that it entails. I also think that the minute I started duping the cars would have less value in my eyes. I like to "work" to get the car I want, the same goes for real life, apart from my daily driver that I bought new, my other three cars were all brought in pitifull condition and fully restored/ race modified by my own hands. In gt5 I grind to a certain extent, spend time trying to make the right swaps on forums to get the cars I want and then spend ages tuning the car.
As for online, it never even crossed my mind that the cars I'm up against might be duped, half the time they're in my rear view mirror anyhow. I like driving non race cars online and beating the race cars, this can only be done up to about 400bhp, but its great fun and alot of people comment by saying "wow I didn't know a standard car could go that fast" so I'm happy that people finally realise that duping race cars (cause they dont dupe civics or minis I think) doesn't necessarily make you win.
However, very often when I do swaps the cars I receive have 0 mileage on them so I know they're duped, and that's ok for me but I just feel a bit sorry that these guys have so many cars that they no longer appreciate each cars individuality and often ignore some of the less attractive cars which are, in effect, great little racers in their own right.

 

[Steve_D]

I fail to see how putting Bob in an X2010 ,or an FGT for those that haven't reached 35 yet, and pressing a button to start him off makes my cars somehow "worth more" or "earned".

I didn't earn them, Bob did.

 

[Destinkeys]

Amar... interesting post. At least someone willing to discuss it!

I'm not a coder, so no idea about the nuts and bolts, but is it basically that EVERY game with an unprotected save is subject to the same exploits if players are allowed to exchange or gift items to each other? WoW, things like that? Or have SOME games managed to figure it out?

If so, why not PD?

Personally, my take on a fix would have been to make the small game save protected, but allow you to successfully back up your data ONLY by an entire PS3 HD Backup. I know it doesn't SOLVE the problem, but it sure makes it MUCH less convenient. Fill up a 120GB or more, and that backup takes HOURS! Possibly enough to discourage all but the most hardcore of exploiters...?

But are you saying NO-ONE has got this beat?

 

[niky]

You're going to make me back-up my entire frickin' hard drive just to protect 4MB of data?

 

[RogsR34UK]

If the game got a reputation for losing saves and the only way to protect your garage was a System Backup (which as was said could be a real pain). I am sure that future sales of the game would be hit (assuming there would be any of course).

I noticed someone say that having all cars available in Arcade would prevent duping. Presumanbly tuning cars is of no interest.

I have done a considerable amount of grinding to get to my current Lv 33. To get all the way to Lv 40 will no doubt involve a great deal more (using the Rome race I can at least drive a fair number of European cars).

I have no objection to duping (but, I do not trade). I have been supplying Friends on my List with cars when they request them, expecting nothing in return unless it is offered. If a car I am offering is duplicated I will say so.

I very rarely go online. But would only go online with people on my Friends List and that would probably be with people that have benefitted with cars that I have duplicated for them.

 

[drivehard]

The game is the Driving Simulator not the aquiring of cars. I'd dupe but I'm too lazy to figure and do it.

 

[Destinkeys]

You're going to make me back-up my entire frickin' hard drive just to protect 4MB of data?

You got a better solution? Let's hear it.

Like I said, is this problem epidemic, or have SOME games figured it out?

 

[Destinkeys]

If the game got a reputation for losing saves and the only way to protect your garage was a System Backup (which as was said could be a real pain). I am sure that future sales of the game would be hit (assuming there would be any of course).

Actually, EA's Shift had a protected save. You can't even back up your data with a HD Backup! Didn't seem to particularly hurt sales...

 

[RogsR34UK]

I don't seem to recall hearing much about corrupted saves with Shift (never had a problem with it myself). Admittedly with GT5 I suspect the majority of corruptions are caused by impatient duplicating.

If PD had thought there was no a problem with corrupted saves, would they have allowed Save Backups?

 

[ASH32]

You got a better solution? Let's hear it.

Like I said, is this problem epidemic, or have SOME games figured it out?

Yes do nothing, there is no way you can stop it without removing the ability to back-up or the gifting of cars and the big dupers already have tons of cars so doing this wouldn't effect them at all. It's too late to stop it, so you are wasting your time complaining about it.

 

[amar212]

It is very simple.

Only way to stop duping is to remove/implement some functionalities that would hurt majority of players.

Making game more inconvenient for great majority just because few hundred/thousand/whatever - their number is not important in whole scale, really - are "duping" cars is plain stupid.

It is the same as someone would put a ban on existence of knives just because there are people that actually use them for hurting someone.

 

[CarolinaBlue704]

You got a better solution? Let's hear it.

Like I said, is this problem epidemic, or have SOME games figured it out?

Sure, stop worrying about how other people acquire their cars. I'd like PD to spend their time fixing issues in GT5 that actually matter.

 

[Supercheyenne]

GT has always been known as a legit game which meant only the serious and legit played it, now there's all the people ruining it and this site with their immoral crap floating around all over the place.

What if I told you that people used save file exploits on earlier versions of Gran Turismo?

 

[vrooom]

Actually, EA's Shift had a protected save. You can't even back up your data with a HD Backup! Didn't seem to particularly hurt sales...

Are you sure? I think by making a full PS3 Backup and Restore even protected saves (like Shift's) are restored. I have not tried but I think that's how it works...

Also... one very important thing about Shift that I absolutely loved was that all cars and tracks were available in quick race mode. No need to grind or do events you don't like! Any car on any track with any number of opponents and skill and have a blast!

 

[amar212]

What if I told you that people used save file exploits on earlier versions of Gran Turismo?

Yeah, that too

 

[Destinkeys]

I don't seem to recall hearing much about corrupted saves with Shift (never had a problem with it myself). Admittedly with GT5 I suspect the majority of corruptions are caused by impatient duplicating.

If PD had thought there was no a problem with corrupted saves, would they have allowed Save Backups?

Actually, there was a pretty epic thread at Shift's forum (probably one here, too) with quite a lot of people having lost data. Lost it myself TWICE, from the top level, too! Trust me, I was NOT a happy camper! Finally moved my PS3 to a cooler, less electrically busy location, and I haven't had an issue since.

I think the game save corruptions are more about issues like that than anything intrinsically wrong with the game, but crashes are inevitable when a HD is part of the equation. No matter HOW good the software is, there is ALWAYS a chance.

The weird thing with EA's Shift was, the XBox and the PC versions did NOT have protected game saves, only the PS3. Drove me crazy... As it happens, Shift's upwards path was both shorter and more fun than GT5's, so doing the game over the second time was no big deal, especially as that was when I moved from a pad to my DFGT. By the time my third crash came, I was pretty much playing online ONLY, so, once again, a quick blast through the game to get the levels needed to buy whatever cars I wanted, then back to normal.

But GT5's game progression is FAR more labor intensive (and less fun!), so the thought of losing everything probably drove the universal call for the unprotection of the game save. But the main thing is, who at PD ever felt that a protected game save was EVER going to be accepted? Why wasn't this issue addressed right from the start?

Anyhoo, the genie is out of the bottle. Hard to get it back in, now. But I STILL haven't heard anyone say definitively whether NO game at all has ever succeeded with a solution for this. This exploit can be used on ALL games with an unprotected save?

Jeez, that's sad...

 

[Destinkeys]

Are you sure? I think by making a full PS3 Backup and Restore even protected saves (like Shift's) are restored. I have not tried but I think that's how it works...

Also... one very important thing about Shift that I absolutely loved was that all cars and tracks were available in quick race mode. No need to grind or do events you don't like! Any car on any track with any number of opponents and skill and have a blast!

No, even an HD backup didn't cure this. There were several reports of it failing. Read the manual, and it clearly states that some kinds of protected files do NOT get copied in a PS3 Restore...

And, yes, Quick Race did allow you to drive any car. But, even so, you STILL had to level up to the appropriate level before you could Quick Race with them. And they were stock only, no upgrades and tuning. But the strangest thing is, I don't recall virtually ANY whining about that at EA's forum! For some weird reason, their players seemed perfectly understanding about the fact that you couldn't drive a ZondaR the day you bought the game. I still haven't figured out why GT's players are so different...

 

[mekonrider]

Surely the bottom line about racing games is how fast you are? Does anyone care in real life if Lewis Hamilton was basically engineered in a F1 or does everyone have to be like Mansell and risk their house? People are trying to justify grinding as a right of passage to drive fast cars. I'll just pretend I was born into money....it's not real life, yeah?

 

[vrooom]

No, even an HD backup didn't cure this. There were several reports of it failing. Read the manual, and it clearly states that some kinds of protected files do NOT get copied in a PS3 Restore...

And, yes, Quick Race did allow you to drive any car. But, even so, you STILL had to level up to the appropriate level before you could Quick Race with them. And they were stock only, no upgrades and tuning. But the strangest thing is, I don't recall virtually ANY whining about that at EA's forum! For some weird reason, their players seemed perfectly understanding about the fact that you couldn't drive a ZondaR the day you bought the game. I still haven't figured out why GT's players are so different...

Because as you said previously leveling up in Shift was fast and painless. Have a hard time with the AI? Switch to easy opponents (I always drove at medium at first and hard later). Don't like drifting events? Don't do them, you will get enough points and money from other events. Not sure if a car will handle good? No problem, try it first for free in quick race mode and if you like it buy it. And when you buy and upgrade the car and somehow is not that good sell it without losing money - you get back all the money you spent on the car and upgrades.👍

Leveling up and career progression in Shift was fun, entertaining and fair. Career progression in GT5 is a chore, unfair and punishing! For example why should you lose so much money when selling a car and why you can't even sell expensive cars!👎

Since GT5 is so unfair I don't plan on being fair towards GT5 and I will continue buying cars for free. In Shift I never felt the need to cheat (not that there was any way or reason to cheat).

I buy driving games to drive virtual cars. I don't buy them for the challenge of managing your virtual money to buy virtual cars. Shift allowed me to drive the cars I want without grinding. GT5 doesn't and only through buying cars for free can I continue drive the cars I want in GT5 without grinding. So I will continue cheating UNTIL PD unlocks ALL cars corresponding to your A-Spec level in Arcade mode.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

You know, I have this very clear memory of saying that if anybody starts on the whole crusade against one or the other again, I'll close the thread. Do you people think I say this because I like the sound of my digital voice? I was quite content to let the discussion run its course, but now look what you've done. You've got nobody to blame but yourself. The main offenders know who they are.

Thread closed.