Bangle BMW

[Sage]

Originally posted by Famine
The Z3 M Coupe I liked a lot.

Did you say M coupe? Now that was an ugly duckling! (The convertible was fine though. ) The coupe just didn't look right though, because it was this big rounded box with a tiny but very long nose poking out the front...

[edit]: Dammit Famine, it's always a pain to snip-quote your posts!

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by neon_duke
I don't even follow the automotive press/showcar circuit in any way, so I really don't know of any bandwagon I could be jumping on.

Poke your head into any BMW forum these days and its "Bangle sucks" or "5 series is Fugly" or "I'm buying an Audi". Its sad to me as a long time lover of BMWs that an "enthusiast" community can summarily dismiss a generation of honest-to-goodness kick ass cars just because they don't like the looks.

Not saying you're one of these people. But as someone who actually appreciates the direction BMW is heading in it can be a little irritating to see.

Ironically, my next car will most probably not be a BMW, but not for reasons of styling. My beef is that they are shifting their entire line one market up, to make room for the 1 and 2 Series... which is too small and underpowered for my tastes.

As fine as the 530i is, 50 grand for a six cylinder ain't gonna fly with me. And the 330i is about 5 grand too much and 25 horses too short to compete with the G35.

Originally posted by neon_duke
Actually, I'm most disappointed, because in 3 years when I would be shopping for a nice used 2004 model, I won't be able to stand them.

You'll still have the current 3 series for another model year... 2 for the Coupe. Have you looked much into the Performance Package cars? Very nice package. Too bad no LSD.

My M3 will be for sale in March, if you want a sedan.


///M-Spec

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by neon_duke

Before Doug sees this and has a conniption, I'm not talking about their qualities as cars. I'm talking about how they look.

I don't pay attention to you people anymore. Most of you refuse to judge cars on anything other than looks and when when asked an opinion of a car will instantly fall back on styling. People like that aren't car people and I'm tired of their 'know-it-all' fashionable opinions of design getting in the way of judging cars for actual reasons. Yes, the Infiniti M45 is the best car in its class. Yes, the Pontiac Aztek AWD is a great midsize SUV. But nobody's going to get past their looks. I'm not out to change you, but I'm certainly no longer taking opinions of most of the people in this thread seriously.

 

[Famine]

Yep - I LOVED it. The convertible always left me a little cold to be honest. The Coupe was just right (to my eyes, at least ).

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by Sage
Did you say M coupe? Now that was an ugly duckling! (

Now there's a good point to bring up: the M Coupe.

Here's a car that hit every single branch on its way down the ugly tree, yet, most BMW fans love it.

But when the Z4 is "ugly", they hate it.

Doesn't make sense to me.


///M-Spec

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by M5Power
Yes, the Infiniti M45 is the best car in its class.

<<<Picks up Chris Bangle's dead, bullet ridden carcass and bashes Doug repeatedly with it>>>


///M-Spec

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by ///M-Spec
<<<Picks up Chris Bangle's dead, bullet ridden carcass and bashes Doug repeatedly with it>>>

That's easy, but prove me wrong. If it's not being judged on handling alone, it takes every category against all its competitors, usually by a wide margin. It's one of the soundest victories in the auto industry. (bettered only by the '03 Mustang, which has lost quite a bit of its prestige to the new '04 GTO)

 

[Famine]

Originally posted by ///M-Spec
Now there's a good point to bring up: the M Coupe.

Here's a car that hit every single branch on its way down the ugly tree, yet, most BMW fans love it.

But when the Z4 is "ugly", they hate it.

Doesn't make sense to me.


///M-Spec

Now, I am in no way a BMW fan - or an any maker fan actually - but I loved the look of the Z3 M Coupe (but don't care about the Roadster), and loathe the look of the Z4...

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by M5Power
That's easy, but prove me wrong.

How about no manual?

There's no testing done for it yet, but a 545i/6 should leave the M45 in a cloud of rubber.

Does the M45 have an LSD? How about "Fun to drive"?


///M-Spec

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by LoudMusic
They said the same thing about many of the renesance artists. Now they're all famous and their paintings sell for millions of dollars. I'm not saying this bloke is in the same catagory, I'm just suggesting that everyone back off a bit. You may not like it, but that doesn't mean it's crap.

Hey, I just noticed this.

Very nicely said 👍


///M-Spec

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by Famine
Two of my favourite BMW cars ever are the BMW M1 and the 635i. My two least favourite are the current 7 series and Z4. The Z3 M Coupe I liked a lot. The current M3/M3CSL are great. I've never driven any of them - but I smile whenever I see one, and grimace whenever I see the 7/Z4 and 3 Compact... [/color] [/B]

But hey.. did you know the Z3 M Coupe and 3-Series Compact have the same underpinnings, just different tuning and body panels?


///M-Spec

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by ///M-Spec
How about no manual?

There's no testing done for it yet, but a 545i/6 should leave the M45 in a cloud of rubber.

Does the M45 have an LSD? How about "Fun to drive"?

Yes, I know - the performance categories are the first out, and yes, the 545i has better performance. Fortunate for BMW, too, because the 545 damn well should beat the M45 on at least a few categories considering the price difference is $15200 in the Infiniti's favor compared to the 545 manual. The M45 loses a couple of other minor categories, too, but barely.

If you did the proper price comparison, the 340bhp luxury sedan M45 would be squaring off against the 225bhp 530i which comes standard with vinyl seats. Do the horsepower comparison and you always come back to BMW charging $15200 for performance and a name - and not much else.

 

[Famine]

Originally posted by ///M-Spec
But hey.. did you know the Z3 M Coupe and 3-Series Compact have the same underpinnings, just different tuning and body panels?


///M-Spec

Now you see, isn't that weird?

On the same lines, I don't like the Audi TT or VW Beetle, am ambivalent to the Golf, and like the SEAT Leon...

Why? *shrugs* You may as well ask me what blue tastes like.

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by M5Power
If you did the proper price comparison, the 340bhp luxury sedan M45 would be squaring off against the 225bhp 530i which comes standard with vinyl seats. Do the horsepower comparison and you always come back to BMW charging $15200 for performance and a name - and not much else.

Depends on whose money I'm spending.

If I'm spending my own money, yes, I'll always spend a bit extra for the better performing car. Why else would I bother with a sports sedan?

If I'm spending our money (that is, my wife and I's).. then I will be often forced to give more credence to the value card.

I did mention a couple posts back that the 530i is priced too high. Doesn't mean its not an outstanding car.. just doesn't deliver in the value department. Its all about priorities...

If I were considerably more wealthy than I am, I mean truly wealthy. I'd spend an extra 15k just because I think the M45 is ugly in the same way that I eat porterhouse instead of sirloin because it tastes better.


///M-Spec

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by ///M-Spec
Depends on whose money I'm spending.

Fair point.

If I'm spending my own money, yes, I'll always spend a bit extra for the better performing car. Why else would I bother with a sports sedan?

I don't consider this to be a sports sedan, but when you say 'a bit extra', you realise you're talking about well over $10k, right?!

Doesn't mean its not an outstanding car.. just doesn't deliver in the value department. Its all about priorities...

Agreed - and it is an outstanding car. Frankly, I can't fault BMW for pricing it so high, either - they're popular as hell. If people will pay it, why not sell it? I'm not even sure they would get more interest if they lowered the price a few thousand.

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by Famine
*shrugs* You may as well ask me what blue tastes like.[/color] [/B]

Chicken?


///M-Spec

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by M5Power
I don't consider this to be a sports sedan, but when you say 'a bit extra', you realise you're talking about well over $10k, right?!

Why would you not consider the 5-series and M45 both sports sedans? Of course they are. Handling > ride compromises, RWD layout, big V8s, manual gearbox (with 5er), sports packages, low profile tires... they scream "sports sedan."

And yes, if the 545i were in my price range, I'd gladly pay the extra $10k-15k. The M45 doesn't offer a manual (requirement in a sports sedan, IMO) and a 5 series with Dynamic Drive is arguably a better handling car than an E46 M3 (There. I said it.)


///M-Spec

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by ///M-Spec
Why would you not consider the 5-series and M45 both sports sedans?

Because to me a sport sedan has to be small - Audi A4, BMW 3-series. To you a sport sedan has to have performance to match a 'sports car', but to me they're just labels and I prefer to apply the 'sport sedan' label to smaller upscale sedans.

 

[Duke]

What are the 540 amd M45, then? "Sport Boats", or perhaps "Sports Barges"? I guess the latter would be reserved for the 7 series.

 

[advanR]

the m coupe is the second best modern bmw behind the m3 csl. or THE best attainable bmw. i dont understand how i can be the only one mentioning the m coupe whenever someone asks what performance car under 30k they should buy.

oh yes i forgot, everyone is stupid.

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by neon_duke
What are the 540 amd M45, then? "Sport Boats", or perhaps "Sports Barges"?

Mid-luxury sedans, competitors being the Acura RL, Audi A6, Buick Park Avenue, Cadillac CTS, Cadillac Seville, Chrysler 300M, Honda Accord EX V6, Infiniti I35, Jaguar S-Type, Lexus GS, Lincoln Town Car (in some situations), Lincoln LS, Mercedes E-class, Volkswagen Passat W8, Volvo S60 and Volvo S80. It's a tough class to define, but the term 'sport sedan' is heavily overused.

 

[Slicks]

Originally posted by milefile
It's quite entertaining to see a bunch of high school morons saying a designer should be shot. Especially when it is very unlikely any of you will ever even own, let alone drive, a BMW. I suppose you all would be happy if BMW looked the same for another 20 years?

Can any of you identify a design principle that has been violated? Can you use descriptive terms to voice your opinion?

You people are idiots on a band wagon. BMWs look better than they ever have.

Now the Boxter, that's a real piece of crap.

I am not saying that BMW should look the same for 20 years. I am simply saying that they should not have gone in this direction.

And who the hell are you to say "A bunch of high school morons saying a designer should be shot. Especially when it is very unlikely any of you will ever even own, let alone drive, a BMW"? Some of these 'high school morons' are probably smarter than you are. Wait: they'd have to be smarter than you - they wouldn't say anything that stupid!!!

How do you know that we'll "never own, let alone drive, a BMW"? Is it suddenly againt the law?

Idiots on a bandwagon, eh? Every person that says a BMW is ugly has a reason - IT IS UGLY!! Mabye not in your eyes, but in theirs it is!

Oh, and by the way, whats wrong with a boxter? And by your reasoning (best described by Neon Duke @ the top of page 2), you'd have to be able to afford one right now to critique it. So can you? Can you afford a boxter?



Oh, and just to clarify and elaborate anything from my earlier posts, the 5 has incredibly bad headlights, I-Drive, and a high price tag for it's class. The 7 has i-drive and a terribly done back end, and the 6 has a terrible back end and I-Drive.
The mechanicals are still great, though.
And I still think that Bangle should be shot!

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by M5Power
Mid-luxury sedans....

It's a tough class to define, but the term 'sport sedan' is heavily overused.

So the 5er is the best performing car in its segment, but that doesn't matter because the segment is not about sport, but rather "mid-luxury"? The mission of the 5 has always been about combining sport and luxury, but it loses because its not as luxurious as the other cars in its class?

You're basically fixing the judging standards so it can't win then. It's like judging a marathon runner by putting him in a sprint race. Its downright devious and I'd harass you about it if I thought you were doing it on purpose.

There's a reason why the 5-Series is the only car in its class to have always offered a manual tranny with all of its engine options. It's because the soul of a 5er leans far closer to sport than lux in the sport-lux equation. It would be an error to dismiss the 5 as just a luxury car, because it is clearly not.


///M-Spec

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by ///M-Spec
So the 5er is the best performing car in its segment, but that doesn't matter because the segment is not about sport, but rather "mid-luxury"? The mission of the 5 has always been about combining sport and luxury, but it loses because its not as luxurious as the other cars in its class?

Yeah - this is fairly typical; you're reading waaaay to much into the class name. Let the cars compete and YOU can call the classes whatever the hell you want; I was just offering my opinion. For some reason you seem to think that because we call the class something different, the entire focus of the class is different, which is plainly bull**** especially if you read the list of cars I put forward.

Incidentally, I congratulate BMW for making the car such a "sporting" drive. That makes everybody who wants a practical, luxurious V8 and not the extra cost or hassle of the "sporting" car look someplace else.

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by M5Power
Yeah - this is fairly typical; you're reading waaaay to much into the class name. Let the cars compete and YOU can call the classes whatever the hell you want; I was just offering my opinion. [/B]

Typical of what? What are you being all grouchy about? You're the one who put the term 'sports sedan' at issue.

Originally posted by M5Power
For some reason you seem to think that because we call the class something different, the entire focus of the class is different, which is plainly bull**** especially if you read the list of cars I put forward.

No. I stated that the 5 series is a sports sedan, and that calling it something else like 'mid-luxury' would be ignoring its product mission. Remember, you're the one that started arguing over class definitions.

Really, Doug, as someone who spent the extra cash to get an M5, you should know and understand what a sports sedan is and not quibble about definitions.

Originally posted by M5Power
Incidentally, I congratulate BMW for making the car such a "sporting" drive. That makes everybody who wants a practical, luxurious V8 and not the extra cost or hassle of the "sporting" car look someplace else.

What the heck was this all about?


///M-Spec

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by ///M-Spec
Typical of what? What are you being all grouchy about? You're the one who put the term 'sports sedan' at issue.

No. I stated that the 5 series is a sports sedan, and that calling it something else like 'mid-luxury' would be ignoring its product mission. Remember, you're the one that started arguing over class definitions.

So I have to re-name the entire class to satisfy BMW's product mission? No, no, Acura RL - you're sport now! Try to get 0-60 to under eight seconds, and for Christ's sake, lose OnStar.

To me the class names mean absolutely NOTHING - the only reason I brought it up is because "sport sedan" is, in my book, already occupied by the smaller premium sedans. I'm NOT arguing about definitions at all, because the class is only defined by what's in it.

What the heck was this all about?

It just angers me that BMW does Dynamic Drive and 'optimised suspension' to satisfy the small portion of drivers that consistently want a sporty feel. The RL's starting to look pretty good...

 

[ShobThaBob]

Am I the only one that understands where M5 is coming at with the sporty feel vs non sporty feel?

 

[Captain Coffee]

Originally posted by M5Power
It just angers me that BMW does Dynamic Drive and 'optimised suspension' to satisfy the small portion of drivers that consistently want a sporty feel. The RL's starting to look pretty good...

It angers you that they want to make great handling, highly responsive cars?



If Bimmers are too stiff for you, buy something softer. Or do you want the Bangle looks but don't want to pay for the performance?

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by Captain Coffee
It angers you that they want to make great handling, highly responsive cars?

Yes - because they could be doing much better if they dropped the "image" and made the cars more tolerable. Why should a 525i buyer who wants everything that comes with the BMW also have to put up with a **** ride aimes more at a 540i buyer?

 

[Captain Coffee]

Originally posted by M5Power
Yes - because they could be doing much better if they dropped the "image" and made the cars more tolerable. Why should a 525i buyer who wants everything that comes with the BMW also have to put up with a **** ride aimes more at a 540i buyer?

But it's not an "image" of sportiness if it is so sporty that the ride too hard for your soft backside. It's real sportiness. And if the image of sportiness is what sets BMW apart from other cars, is that what you want? So you just want the image of sportiness, with out the inconvenience of a stiff ride?

That kind of thinking will last for about 1 generation of BMWs. Then again maybe not, considering how obscenely much money the "image" of sportiness has made for sellers of SUV's.

You're not making sense. If you don't want sportiness, you should buy something cheaper that is luxurious but not sporty. If you want something luxurious and sporty, you should buy a BMW. And if you just want the image of sportiness but not real sportiness, you should not be allowed to own a car.