"Best Hot Hatch"; Final Vote for "Best Family Sedan/Saloon"

[ExigeEvan]

Well...

That is a hatch-back.
As is this:

The funny thing is, the URL to the first says it's a coupe, and the second is a sedan....

And anyways, since the last "true" hot hatch (Peugeot 106) is already nominated, I'll have to give it to the Shadow in Shelby CSX form. Immense fun in V6 form, and the car I learned to drive in; I can't imagine how much of a blast the CSX is. Perhaps even more fun then the Neon...
(I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the original Mini Cooper 1275)

Still doesn't say hatch to me.

I'm quite sure, if I remember correctly, that there was a plane jane version of the M Coupe.

Defeats the point of it being a hot-hatch if it isn't fastest in the range

Yayers! That means it nominated right?

If not I'm gonna go back to my hole....

It's all upto YSSMAN.

so i take it we arent allowing the escort then coz if so i need to vote for something else, btw the chassis used on the cossie was a modified sierra chassis and was much shorter than the sierra, if the skoda octavia(which is bigger than the escort) gets in then thats just laughable

Personally, I don't think the Octavia should be in it. I think the Fabia is the Skoda hatch, not the Octavia.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Personally, I don't think the Octavia should be in it. I think the Fabia is the Skoda hatch, not the Octavia.

wrong,the fabia is the citycar/small hatch back(polo,ibiza,a2 level),the octavia is the hatchback/estate(golf,leon,a3 level) and the superb is the saloon(a4,passat level)
if the octavia cant be allowed then nether can the golf,s3/a3 or the leon as they are ALL the same car

 

[Tornado]

The funny thing is, the URL to the first says it's a coupe, and the second is a sedan....

It doesn't matter. The only version of the Shadow/Sundance duo that isn't a hatchback is the convertible. The sedan was actually a 5 door and the coupe was actually a 3 door. If the Ford RS Cosworth is allowed in, there is no reason for the Dodge Shadow/Playmouth Sundance/Shelby CSX to not be allowed in (though I realise that is under fire as well).

Still doesn't say hatch to me.

Defeats the point of it being a hot-hatch if it isn't fastest in the range

Huh?

You people are crazy.

2007 Mazdaspeed 3.

Definitely a station wagon.

 

[ExigeEvan]

wrong,the fabia is the citycar/small hatch back(polo,ibiza,a2 level),the octavia is the hatchback/estate(golf,leon,a3 level) and the superb is the saloon(a4,passat level)
if the octavia cant be allowed then nether can the golf,s3/a3 or the leon as they are ALL the same car

But their bodies vary fairly dramatically.

That's like saying, if the Golf does make it in, so does the 1st gen Audi TT. But that is quite obviously a coupe. Hence your logic fails.

It doesn't matter. The only version of the Shadow/Sundance duo that isn't a hatchback is the convertible. The sedan was actually a 5 door and the coupe was actually a 3 door. If the Ford RS Cosworth is allowed in, there is no reason for the Dodge Shadow/Playmouth Sundance/Shelby CSX to not be allowed in.

I don't think the Escort Cosworth should be in...

Huh?

Yes, because we haven't already discussed the 'just because the whole rear windscreen lifts aswell it's a hatch back' already.

And a hot hatch is generaly the fastest car in that model. So by choosing the lower model just so you can get it in the category is a tad, desperate.


I eagerly await any word from YSSMAN on the topic as the final word shall be his.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

But their bodies vary fairly dramatically.

That's like saying, if the Golf does make it in, so does the 1st gen Audi TT. But that is quite obviously a coupe. Hence your logic fails.

no it doesnt as the tt is a coupe not a hatchback

 

[Milliethemutt]

if the skoda octavia(which is bigger than the escort) gets in then thats just laughable

The Octavia ia a higher performance version of the standard one, the Cossie had a different drivetrain, engine layout and 4 wheel drive system to any other Escort of the time. Totally different cars that happen to look the same for marketing reasons. Size isn't the issue being based on a family hatchback is. Hence no Z3 coupe either.

Edit: Speaking of VAG platform sharing hot hatches I used to have a Leon Cupra - it was quick but boring.

 

[Tornado]

no it doesnt as the tt is a coupe not a hatchback

He does have a point though.

And a hot hatch is generaly the fastest car in that model. So by choosing the lower model just so you can get it in the category is a tad, desperate.

I wasn't doing that at all. I was saying that the M Coupe was based on a more staid car.

Yes, because we haven't already discussed the 'just because the whole rear windscreen lifts aswell it's a hatch back' already.

Nope. I recognized that you have discussed it. I also recognized that you haven't come to any agreement either.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

He does have a point though.

not really it isnt a hatchback hence no reason for it being meantioned and mill did u have the 180/210 or 225

 

[Milliethemutt]

180bhp version. It was a nice car but after a 306 it was not as lively through the bends.

 

[Danny]

Defeats the point of it being a hot-hatch if it isn't fastest in the range

So the MKII Clio 182 wasn't a hot hatch? It certainley wasn't faster than the V6 (in a straight line)

 

[ExigeEvan]

no it doesnt as the tt is a coupe not a hatchback

Yes but....


You've said that car A must be included because car B is, under the skin, the same car. I have countered that car C is also the same car, under the skin. But, the skin is what defines these cars in this topic.

So the MKII Clio 182 wasn't a hot hatch? It certainley wasn't faster than the V6 (in a straight line)

But the V6 was, as said before, hardly the same car. For a start the engine was in a completely different place.

Now, I'm going to bed. I look forward to replying to any further comments about 6pm tomorrow.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Yes but....


You've said that car A must be included because car B is, under the skin, the same car. I have countered that car C is also the same car, under the skin. But, the skin is what defines these cars in this topic.

but i didnt as i listed the same cars in the same class on the same platform

and mill my mate has the 180 version........now with a rather more healthy 330+bhp

 

[Danny]

But the V6 was, as said before, hardly the same car. For a start the engine was in a completely different place.

But it's still under the same umbrella of a Clio, and was considered a spec of the model.

Sweet dreams.

 

[Scaff]

But it's still under the same umbrella of a Clio, and was considered a spec of the model.

Sweet dreams.

True but that was purely for marketing and brand reasons,with a different body on it (and after all it only share two body panels with the whole Clio range and one with the performance versions) could have been sold as a totaly unique model. From a mechanical standpoint the TT is closer to the Golf than the Clio V6 is to the rest of the Clio range (at least the TT and Golf shared engines).

So the MKII Clio 182 wasn't a hot hatch? It certainley wasn't faster than the V6 (in a straight line)

Not by much, and you also hit the nail on the head here. The V6 may be quicker in a straight line, but the twistier it gets the faster the 182 Trophy gets, and b-road performance is a mark of a great Hot Hatch. Besides at £27k the V6 hardly manages the afordable part of things now does it.

👍

Scaff

 

[TopHat]

Wow, this is a lot harder than it looks nominating these things.

 

[Casio]

Wow I can't believe this has been forgotten.

170kw in 1990. Still more power then most current hot hatches. Was entered in the WRC, won group N, was wheels car of the year in 1991.

 

[danda]

The Octavia ia a higher performance version of the standard one, the Cossie had a different drivetrain, engine layout and 4 wheel drive system to any other Escort of the time. Totally different cars that happen to look the same for marketing reasons. Size isn't the issue being based on a family hatchback is. Hence no Z3 coupe either.

Edit: Speaking of VAG platform sharing hot hatches I used to have a Leon Cupra - it was quick but boring.

this is not true, there was the RS2000 from the same era which was available with 4wd and a longitdinally mounted engine the same as the cossie

 

[skip0110]

Read this article and tell me what the first sentence of the first paragraph says.
http://cars.about.com/od/acura/fr/05_rsx_s_pp.htm

Oh, and even Wikipedia says so...

~Article Link

And I can counter with links from Edmunds and Consumer Guide. Or you can look in the summary panel of the very Wikipedia article you sent me to.

Manufacturer: Honda
Production: 2002–2006
Assembly: Sayama, Japan
Predecessor: Acura Integra
Successor: Acura CSX
Class: Sport compact
Body style: 2-door hatchback

I admit it is a close call, definitely lies on the line between coupe and hatchback. YSSMAN said its out, so out it is.

 

[Tornado]

this is not true, there was the RS2000 from the same era which was available with 4wd and a longitdinally mounted engine the same as the cossie

The Escort Mk. II RS2000 came many years before the RS200.
And either way, Milliethemutt is incorrect as the RS Cosworth was very much so based on the normal Escort. It was the RS200 that had nothing to do with the normal Escort.

 

[Leonidae]

I voted for Audi A4, and nominate Nissan Sunny GTi-R

it is the hot hatch of the range.

 

[Tornado]

I voted for Audi A4, and nominate Nissan Sunny GTi-R

it is the hot hatch of the range.

Um...

Wow I can't believe this has been forgotten.

170kw in 1990. Still more power then most current hot hatches. Was entered in the WRC, won group N, was wheels car of the year in 1991.

 

[Sakiale]

Nissan Pulsar GTi-R. That's a hatch, right?

Wow, now I know why they tell you to read the whole thread.

 

[Tornado]

That's the first time I've ever seen a car nominated thrice in an hour span.

 

[Jay]

GTi-R is a great nomination, can't believe I forgot about it as I ride and drive one fairly often


Just noticed a typo in the poll, the Commodore should be SV6 (sedan) not CV6 (coupe).

 

[TopHat]

Just to be sure, I'm gonna nominatet the Nissan Pulsar Gti-R

Oh, what..... j/k. This thread is a mess, I suggest we start over.

 

[Azuremen]

Meh, I've seen GTi-R's run, some guy around here imports them and gets them street legal (no clue how). They are not nearly as quick as their numbers would make you think, though they are cool looking...

 

[danda]

The Escort Mk. II RS2000 came many years before the RS200.
And either way, Milliethemutt is incorrect as the RS Cosworth was very much so based on the normal Escort. It was the RS200 that had nothing to do with the normal Escort.

i didnt mean the mk 2, the mk 5/6 was what i meant

 

[YSSMAN]

Okay, lets see if I can make sense of some of this. I'm using the standard definition of the "Hot Hatch" as defined by the Wikipedia:

A hot hatch is an informal or slang term for a performance derivative of a European hatchback (in the US, Asian sports hatches are sometimes called sport compacts). Vehicles of this class are typically based on a budget, family-oriented automobile, and equipped with improved suspension and a more powerful engine. Front mounted engines and front wheel drive is the most common layout.

Therefore I just can't let the following go through:

1) No on the RSX. I'd call that a "lift-back" like the 3rd and 4th Gen Camaro or Mazda 6, not a true "hatchback."

2) Definitely a big NO on the Z3/Z4 Coupe, as it doesn't meet the requirements to be based on a "family" car.

3) Along the same lines, I don't think I can let the Shelby CSX go through either. Again, that is more of a "lift-back" than a "hatchback," but the Omni certainly is in the running if you want Mopar power. Hell, technically the PT Crusier GT could squeeze in if you really wanted it...

4) Now if my understanding of the Escort is correct, we are talking about the late, great 5th generation model. By all-means, that fits the bill here.

 

[dylansan]

I really want a Fiat 500 to be in the poll. it may not be "hot" but it's a historical type thing, and I love it a lot. Although, if that doesn't qualify, I'll take the City.

(I'm not exactly sure how I'm supposed to nominate, it's late, so I may add a bit to this.)

 

[YSSMAN]

Nominations thus far, just to help out those who are arriving late to the party...

Volkswagen GTI
Renault "Renaultsport" Clio 182
Suzuki Swift GTI
Alfa Romeo 147 GTA
Honda Civic Si/Type-R
Ford Focus RS/ST/SVT
Audi S3
Honda City Turbo
Seat Leon Cupra
Skoda Fabia VRS
Renault Megane 225
Dodge Omni GLH Turbo
Toyota Corolla Compressor
Ford Escort Cosworth RS (5th Gen)
Volkswagen R32
AMC Gremlin X
Skoda Octavia VRS
Mazda 3 MPS/ Mazdaspeed 3
Peugeot 205 GTI
Peugeot 106 GTI
Nissan Sunny GTi-R


@ Casio: That would be the larger Accord "Seppo" that is winning.