Better brakes = better stopping power?

[jakkim]

but isnt this determined by the grip level of the tyres?

 

[The Grim Reaper]

but isnt this determined by the grip level of the tyres?

There are several factors that effect stopping power. Weight, Tyres, the type of brakes the car is likely to have, brake ballance. These are just a few of the factors.

 

[Jack]

There are several factors that effect stopping power. Weight, Tyres, the type of brakes the car is likely to have, brake ballance. These are just a few of the factors.

Yeah. Tyres do affect as you can have more / less friction etc. Bigger and better calipers & discs, weight etc as Grim said.

All the little things add up to make better overall performance. Not sure what the point of the thread is Do you want better braking performance in Prologue?

 

[ExigeEvan]

but isnt this determined by the grip level of the tyres?

But it also shouldn't be forgotten that if you keep your tyres the same, you may not use the full ability of the brakes, so they shouldn't fade as badly.

 

[juniordee]

If the brakes are powerful enough to lock the tires, then there's no use in getting better brakes. I think that's what the OP was asking.

 

[RussRobit]

Tires are what contact the road surface, so yes, tires will ultimately determine how fast you will stop. However, the better grip your tires have, the more braking power you will need to take advantage of the better grip.
Weight and speed also have a direct affect on stopping distances. If you double the weight or speed you will need either four times the distance to stop or four times the braking power to stop in the same distance.
Here's a link to a stopping distance calculator so you can see the affects of different speeds vs stopping distance.
http://www.csgnetwork.com/stopdistcalc.html

 

[chrisr1984]

i had 290mm discs on mine then i upped them to 328mm ali belled ones.. my tyres are 175 wide on the front so there isnt much in way of grip as it is..

i could lock the wheels (when abs was off) with the standard discs but i did suffer from brake fade after a while, with my new setup the braking power is limited by the tyres but i do not get any brake fade anymore.

 

[Duke of Pendle]

A BIG factor is the ability to transfer weight to the front under braking.
Ask any motorcyclist. Under heavy braking, the rear brake is almost redundant.
So now we're also talking about about suspension setup.

 

[The Outlaw]

Are you referring to the game or in reality? In most cases OEM brakes have ample power to lock up the tires (if ABS is de-activated), at least at speeds well under 100mph. I'm talking about the average caliper and rotor found on say the new BMW M3...some cars of course have quite nice brake set-ups from the factory. The Corvette ZR1 and Porsche GT2 come to mind, with their Brembo ceramic set-ups. The main purpose of an aftermarket big brake set-up is to help eliminate brake fade that you would see with most stock set-ups after just a few laps of hard driving on the track. There isn't really much of a difference in overall stopping forces/distances except for in the higher speeds, where the car has so much rolling inertia, which causes the factory brakes to fade quite easily. Usually a big brake kit won't shorten first run stopping distances all that much, as the brake calipers piston sizes are matched to vehicles factory master cylinder. To increase the clamping forces you would need bigger pistons in the caliper as well as a larger master cylinder. But to take advatange of that added clamping forces you of course need more mechanical grip.

Here's a pic of the 14" (355mm) 4-piston Stoptech set-up on my Turbo'd Mustang. There's absolutely no comparison to the garbage brakes that came stock on the thing. Pedal feel, response, fade, high speed braking were drastically improved with this set-up. The car also has 285 F/305 R Nitto 555RII R-compound tires with full coilover suspension. The brakes will just about throw you threw the windshield when on the binders hard.

 

[balang_479]

^^^ nice setup...

 

[Scaff]

The following thread will be of interest.....

GT4 and Brakes

.....and most of what has been discussed here is correct.

In a nutshell

• Tyres are the principal factor is stopping distances
• Weight distribution and transfer are a major factor
• Bigger/better discs and rotors can stop you any quicker than your tyres will allow
• Weight itself is not a major factor, but how that weight is transferred is (and those two are very different)
• The physics involved are bloody complex.

Regards

Scaff

 

[HaylRayzor]

I will relate a brief personal note on the topic of brake fade... I had a 93 t-bird which had absolute crap for brakes. The rotors were about 10" in diameter. The brakes would fade dangerously even on a hilly road. The pads wore out in no time. I traded it in on a 96 Cougar XR7 (which is essentially the same car) but it had the large brakes from the police crown vic. The brakes never faded under any circumstances and the pads lasted 70,000 miles.

Larger rotors may not actually give better stopping when the brakes are cold, but when things heat up the larger rotors will fade less and cool faster.

 

[chrisr1984]

.........

nice setup are they 6pot calipers?

i have only got the 4pot on mine, but i only have to stop 850kg rather than a church

i also have the full suspension setup, with braided hoses but my achillies heel really are the tyres atm.. i need to get some wiser 205 toyo 888's or something similar

here is mine atm

 

[grog]

I just wanted to mention that i noticed even with the abs on you cant just slam on the brakes, You still need a bit of finesse to get the best braking.

 

[The Outlaw]

nice setup are they 6pot calipers?

i have only got the 4pot on mine, but i only have to stop 850kg rather than a church

i also have the full suspension setup, with braided hoses but my achillies heel really are the tyres atm.. i need to get some wiser 205 toyo 888's or something similar

here is mine atm

Thanks for the compliment 👍 They are only a 4 pot caliper. Stoptech's 6 pot/piston caliper requires a 380mm rotor which wouldn't fit under my 18" rims. Also, I only do HPDE and time trial/attack events so I really couldn't justify the need for a 6 pot set-up. It only adds weight (rotational and unsprung) and increases maintenance cost, as the pads for 6 pot caliper are substantially pricer. The 6 pot will be more resilient to fade, but for anything under a 45 minute session of really hard driving, my current set-up is rock solid... and that's with 490rwhp/520rwtq to power me down the straights, at a curb weight of 3250lbs. Stoptech specifically told me there was absolutely no difference in braking power/distances between the 4-pot and 6-pot set-ups though...so that's why I went the route I did. 👍

Nice Speedster...I bet that thing is a joy to toss around. I wish I could find a way of shedding 500kg out of my Mustang haha!

The Toyo R888's are awesome...I currently use them at the track. They a pretty much as fast as the Hoosier R6 slick I use to use for the track, but last much longer and actually get quicker with use, unlike the R6's that fall off in performance after only a track day or two. If you are using non R-compound street tires at the moment you will be amazed with the R888's grip...once warmed up

Here's a pic of mine from sometime back...not a very good one but all I could find on my new laptop

 

[Hyper-Dan]

nice setup are they 6pot calipers?

i have only got the 4pot on mine, but i only have to stop 850kg rather than a church

i also have the full suspension setup, with braided hoses but my achillies heel really are the tyres atm.. i need to get some wiser 205 toyo 888's or something similar

here is mine atm

I built your car.

 

[juniordee]

nice setup are they 6pot calipers?

i have only got the 4pot on mine, but i only have to stop 850kg rather than a church

i also have the full suspension setup, with braided hoses but my achillies heel really are the tyres atm.. i need to get some wiser 205 toyo 888's or something similar

here is mine atm

What model is that? Looks like a Lotus (probably is since hyperuk said he built it) but I can't find it anywhere. Looks like a Lotus Elise mixed with a Toyota MR2.

 

[Hyper-Dan]

What model is that? Looks like a Lotus (probably is since hyperuk said he built it) but I can't find it anywhere. Looks like a Lotus Elise mixed with a Toyota MR2.

Its a VX220 turbo, A limited edition one at that.

 

[juniordee]

Its a VX220 turbo, A limited edition one at that.

Ohhhh right right...nice. Some sort of Opel Speedster eh.

 

[Hyper-Dan]

Ohhhh right right...nice. Some sort of Opel Speedster eh.

Yes, here in the UK its a VX220, overseas its a Opel speedster. 👍

 

[chrisr1984]

Its a VX220 turbo, A limited edition one at that.

its only the 2.2 in honesty, im planning on supercharging it you see.

vx220.ukct.net is my site that i made just to keep progress of the things i have done

also as already stated the vx220 is what it is, but in europe its called the opel speedster.

 

[chrisr1984]

..................QUOTE]

yea it is quite fun, but atm its only about 170ish bhp, will be about 190 once ive finished with the engine and then when its supercharged i should see between 210 - 230 bhp.

here is a pic of how scarley thin my front wheels are

 

[The Outlaw]

Hehe...they look like pizza cutters. I could just imagine putting those tires on my car...60-0 in 150ft lol.

I'd imagine it will be a pretty good track toy once you get some tires on there and bump the power up a bit...and of course all the little odds and ends inbetween 👍 Good luck!

 

[juniordee]

Hehe...they look like pizza cutters. I could just imagine putting those tires on my car...60-0 in 150ft lol.

I'd imagine it will be a pretty good track toy once you get some tires on there and bump the power up a bit...and of course all the little odds and ends inbetween 👍 Good luck!

Don't forget the car itself is really light and small so it doesn't need big tires to have the same performance.

 

[The Outlaw]

I was referring to my car, which weighs 3250lbs

 

[Rudi Raser]

if i have good brakes and tyres i can break very well. 👍
if i have bad tyres and good brakes it will be...
if i have good tyres but bad brakes it will be...
if i have bad tyres and bad brakes it will be...

so, what was the question?

 

[jakkim]

ok, if i have same tires on two identical cars, except from the brakes. They are both doing 60 miles and do maximum braking at the exact same time and exact same conditions etc (you get the idea), who will stop first?

 

[juniordee]

ok, if i have same tires on two identical cars, except from the brakes. They are both doing 60 miles and do maximum braking at the exact same time and exact same conditions etc (you get the idea), who will stop first?

The guy who has more experience with braking 💡