BMW Cup - Race I (Results Posted)

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Congrats to stidriver for 1st place 👍 👍 👍
Also congrats to Jake for the 3rd place place. 👍

Oh, here's my replay:
 
Good close racing. It's been so long since I had to submit a replay I almost forgot how. :dopey:
 

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Cool driving guys, nice and close! 👍
 
I went to clean up final replay checks and post my own replays for this race and number 2 tonight, but the USB drive portion of my max drive is giving me problems. I've read somewhere here on GTP that a low memory standard flash drive will also work (As long as the disk is OK, which mine is), so I'm going to give that a try before ordering a new max drive. :nervous:

In the mean time, any help from the other racers in checking replays will be appreciated. 👍
 
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I'll do some checking tonight, but can only do it for PAL replays I suppose. :(
 
Denur
I'll do some checking tonight, but can only do it for PAL replays I suppose. :(
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Thanks, that will help, since I do not have PAL. 👍
 
I checked MadMax86's hotlap and Houston we might have a problem. Either I misunderstood the rules (and could have gotten a better time) or MadMax did:

The concrete areas on either side of the last tunnel are not part of the track.
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If this is allowed afterall, then the lap is clean and the settings correct. 👍
 
Denur
I checked MadMax86's hotlap and Houston we might have a problem. Either I misunderstood the rules (and could have gotten a better time) or MadMax did:





If this is allowed afterall, then the lap is clean and the settings correct. 👍
Click to expand...


EDK

Special Instructions
* The concrete areas on either side of the last tunnel are not part of the track. All other hard surfaces are track. Please keep at least 2 wheels on or vertically in line with the track.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry to say, that based on this rule that was called out from the beginning, the lap is not valid. It's an easy mistake to make and I'm sure an oversight, but unfortunately, I'll have to DQ the lap based on this. :sick:

The same thing happened to a clean and upstanding long term member (gtbadboy) on our last WRS here in week 157. :ouch:

Sorry guys, want to keep this fun and relaxed, but I also want everyone to know this is a level playing field.

I'll update the standings here and in the overall by the weekend, but I'll wait for all of the replay verifications on both races to be completed.
 
Ouch, i was going to have the same problem, but at the end i decided to stay on track and not risk my time for a 1sec faster which might ge a DQ :S

Sorry MadMax86 about that....:cheers:
 
Denur
I checked MadMax86's hotlap and Houston we might have a problem. Either I misunderstood the rules (and could have gotten a better time) or MadMax did:





If this is allowed afterall, then the lap is clean and the settings correct. 👍
Click to expand...

EDK
I'm sorry to say, that based on this rule that was called out from the beginning, the lap is not valid. It's an easy mistake to make and I'm sure an oversight, but unfortunately, I'll have to DQ the lap based on this. :sick:

The same thing happened to a clean and upstanding long term member (gtbadboy) on our last WRS here in week 157. :ouch:

Sorry guys, want to keep this fun and relaxed, but I also want everyone to know this is a level playing field.

I'll update the standings here and in the overall by the weekend, but I'll wait for all of the replay verifications on both races to be completed.
Click to expand...

From my point of wiew I did nothing wrong according to:
EDK
Special Instructions
* The concrete areas on either side of the last tunnel are not part of the track. All other hard surfaces are track. Please keep at least 2 wheels on or vertically in line with the track.
Click to expand...
I have a habit to very precise about many things (habited from army service period) and:
The concrete areas on either side of the last tunnel are not part of the track. All other hard surfaces are track.

To point out of this 1st of all
When driving Deepforest Reverse, the last tunnel is just before the picture's shown concrete area.

And side is ,
when doing the lap it's on the same side as your doors on the car (side doors?)
Just as a curve has an inside and outside. ( just as left or right side )

Now I can just remember that I had doubts about at the week we raced this about
of which tunnel's sides were you talking about.
First I thought you ment the tunnel after T2 which was discrubed in the 1st post
so I drove expecting that any sides of the tunnels were not to be used.
I can also tell that you have edited the 1st post since the 1st posting day.
 
MadMax86
From my point of wiew I did nothing wrong according to:

I have a habit to very precise about many things (habited from army service period) and:
The concrete areas on either side of the last tunnel are not part of the track. All other hard surfaces are track.

To point out of this 1st of all
When driving Deepforest Reverse, the last tunnel is just before the picture's shown concrete area.

And side is ,
when doing the lap it's on the same side as your doors on the car (side doors?)
Just as a curve has an inside and outside. ( just as left or right side )

Now I can just remember that I had doubts about at the week we raced this about
of which tunnel's sides were you talking about.
First I thought you ment the tunnel after T2 which was discrubed in the 1st post
so I drove expecting that any sides of the tunnels were not to be used.
I can also tell that you have edited the 1st post since the 1st posting day.
Click to expand...

I did edit the first post since my original posting. Here is the edit history that I can pull for my own posts -

- * The concrete areas on either side of the second tunnel are not part of the track. All other hard surfaces are track. Please keep at least 2 wheels on or vertically in line with the track.
+ * The concrete areas on either side of the last tunnel are not part of the track. All other hard surfaces are track. Please keep at least 2 wheels on or vertically in line with the track.

Time of Edit Sep 30 2008 8:25 PM
Original Post EDK Sep 29 2008 10:09 PM

It was a simple mistake on my part, thinking there were only 2 tunnels. Now, there is not any concrete on the side of the second tunnel, so I would have expected a question from someone if they did not know what I was talking about.

Now, the specifics from the rules Sphinx posted in the WRS week 157 thread which I did refer to several times during the week -

Sphinx
Week 157 Race Specifics:

Standard OLR Rules.

All concrete areas directly before and after T2 are not part of the track.
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I did not use the same exact wording, maybe I should have.

And if you were not sure, maybe you should have asked.

My last sector was about as fast as I could possibly run, keeping inside at that spot. I would estimate that the shortcut gave you an advantage of about 0.2 on the run. The results were close enough that it would move you from 2nd to 6th.

So I'm going to do something somewhat unconventional, and ask that you tell me what you think is fair under these circumstances.

I don't want to run a bunch of people off and mess up the series as a whole on a technicality, but I also believe the burden is on the participant to have a clear understanding of the rules and ask questions if they are not clear about something.

I'm also receptive to the feedback of the other participants on this matter.

I'll ultimately make the final decision on this, but will leave some time for all to respond.
 
Maybe I'm misremembering, but at least with my driving, driving on the concrete there gets you a lot more than 0.2, probably 0.4. MadMax, maybe you could get an extra day to set a lap without using the concrete slab and see where you end up. Or maybe you could drive several laps, cutting and not cutting it, and see what the difference is, then add that to your submitted time. Neither of those suggestions is perfect, but it's a start.
 
I have to say that I understood the rules as, do not use that concrete section of the track......again (WRS).

After seeing the way Sphinx explained it, Kevin could have worded it the same way and this might not have happened.
I'm sure Kevin has tried very hard to have all of us understand any and all rules as no one wants these kind of situations.
About changing the first post.....ask Sphinx about changing the first post :crazy: ((Vette at Daytona)(sorry Sphinx))....sometimes things change and I guess it is best to check back during the first few days for possible changes.
Many a week at the WRS some changes have been made, though minor, usually a difference in the PAL/NTSC vehicles or some power change.
I'm also sure Max feels he has understood the rules and after seeing the rule explained again, I myself interpret the rule as to mean, before and/or after the tunnel, which can also mean either side of the tunnel.
That may be from running the WRS Week 157 and most of us running this series probably ran that same combo.

Max you are a fast driver and I'm sure just as clean, none of us doubt that.
These mistakes come along once in a while and until now it was always a mistake which was overlooked by the person.
I myself had a mistake at Suzuka in the BMW M3 where all areas were track and I ran over some grass (just after Degner 2, under the overpass) with all 4 wheels and did not even realize it until I was notified about it.

I'm not saying you overlooked anything but I have to say that area of the track is not part of the track for that race.

Of course the race steward has the final say.
 
Having reread the rules, it is indead a bit confusing what concrete parts are meant and given the nature of these small series, I'd go for Austin's suggestion to just add a small time penalty. I wouldn't go so far to disqualify MadMax from this one race or have him do this race over again.
 
On MadMax's lap, I'm getting it worked out now. I would agree that my wording may not have been clear, and based on last sector times, it's possible some other racers might also have mis-interpreted my meaning. I'm checking on that now and hope to resolve it by tomorrow.

In the mean time, I checked Jake's and stidriver's replays.

Both clean, but Jake's is white, while stidriver's is green. :sly:

Jake was silky smooth, as always. You should see this guy driving LAN. Sooo relaxed. :crazy:
 
I'm afraid I have to agree with 01GTP on this one, the concrete was and always has been out of bounds, unless a special exception is 'clearly' stated. I learned this lesson the hard way and DQ'd myself a while back, I think it was week 157.

Max, no doubt you're very quick and no one here doubts your honesty to be sure. It was IMHO an honest mistake, as previously stated, one I've made myself. We're all human and we will all make them from time to time, it's a part of life.

While the final decision is that of our Steward, IMHO the lap is not valid. :ouch: Onward!
 
In MadMax's defense, if I'm correct he did his first WRS in week 170, so this might have been his first encounter here with Deep Forest (it was mine anyway).
 
Denur
In MadMax's defense, if I'm correct he did his first WRS in week 170, so this might have been his first encounter here with Deep Forest (it was mine anyway).
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I've thought of that too.

I respect what Kenny and RonB have stated here, and also your comments in regard to the nature of these series.

The conundrum is, how do I treat MadMax fairly while maintaining the credibility of the series? (Keeping it fair for everyone else)

I'll have this finalized sometime today.
 
EDK
In the mean time, I checked Jake's and stidriver's replays. Both clean, but Jake's is white, while stidriver's is green. :sly:
Jake was silky smooth, as always. You should see this guy driving LAN. Sooo relaxed. :crazy:
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👍👍 thanks Kevin, it's nice to hear a compliment now and again! Let us know when you can make it back east for LAN. We will have to install heaters in the race seats as it's getting a little cold here lately :scared:
 
Jαke;3190709
👍👍 thanks Kevin, it's nice to hear a compliment now and again! Let us know when you can make it back east for LAN. We will have to install heaters in the race seats as it's getting a little cold here lately :scared:
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I might be awhile (After the first of the year). My next couple of trips will be for pre-holiday visits, so I won't be able to take extra time. :(
 
OK - I know this is a DP, but wanted to be sure you guys see it. I'll merge it with my post above a little later. First off on the replay verification front -


REPLAY VERIFICATION
stidriver -
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Jake -
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EDK -
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And then on MadMax86's situation. I've discussed this with many of you via PM and some have also posted their opinions here in the thread. If this was a WRS race and I (or anyone else for that matter) was moderating, this would be a DQ. In this case, I'm going to give MadMax86 the benefit of the doubt, but we have come to an agreement on a penalty for the possible advantage gained. When I post week 3 results, MadMax86 will be docked 5 points in the overall standings. I will not be changing the points of any other racers or affect the rankings for this race.

I believe the general consensus was to uphold this as a DQ, but I'm placing some of the burden on myself for my somewhat unclear explanation of the intent to begin with. Going forward, I've learned that I need to post pictures of any questionable areas such as these, so that even if someone misses it, it's an unquestionable DQ.

That said, MadMax86 will continue in here as a fast and respected racer. 👍

MadMax86 -
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If there are any further questions in this particular matter, please PM me.
 
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