Brazilian GP

[kensei]

I enjoyed the start yesterday it was very exciting. I hope Mclaren win the Constructors but i think possibly Fisichella will do better in the next races because the team arnt concentrating on Alonso as much, also Mclarens reliability could be a big problem.

As strong as McLaren looked yesterday I think the constructors is their's, barring any McMerc blowups.

Frankly for McLaren, given the team's structure and McLaren's overall cool and calm faceless PR facade isn't winning the constructors a more suiting victory for McLaren? Isn't McLaren the team with no ego, no number one driver, always doing for the overall McLaren good?

I guess that is one of thee reasons I can't ever really cheer for McMerc. Unfortunately for me they have 2 of my 3 favorite drivers.... :-)

 

[Young_Warrior]

I agree... Alonso drove better in the 2nd half of the season, but IMO he went so far up the driver's championship because of the negligence of others. He got second place in Spa thanks to Pizzonia, he got first place in two or three races thanks to Raikkonen's retirements.

The commentators yesterday on the transmission were talking about who is the better driver, Alonso or Kimi. The commentators are Spanish, so of course they chose Alonso. But Pedro de la Rosa is one of the commentators and he made an interesting point (albeit, he didn't chose Alonso): Kimi has gotten pole position with a full tank of gas, and he's proven to be a much better driver time and time again (going from 5th to second, from 11th to 4th, and the like); whilst Alonso has just maintained positions.

Best driver for me is Kimi, the championship winner is Alonso because of McLaren's unreliability. Goes to show you that the best driver isn't always the winner.

Amen

 

[darkfinal]

Yo, McLaren's unreliability is all McLaren's & Kimi's fault. If they'd slown down since the first seasons race, Kimi would be the world champion, and he'd not be the fastest one.

But as McLaren saw Renault gaining points, they went desperately fast to win them, they saw Kimi and Montoya breaking their cars race rear race and McLaren putted more speed in their cars, when they had to slow down and just END THE RACES IN THE PODIUM.

In fact, McLaren isn't really a better car than Renault (or at least, it wasn't in the 1st half), but McLaren got that 1 second by lap faster by forcing their car (something that Renault did in the 1st season half, when they were 1 or 2 seconds per lap faster than McLaren), and as Renault saw Alonso had a great advantage over Kimi, they relaxed the motor revs and made their car a second slower. They knew that in the 2nd half it'd be near impossible to win a single race due to McLaren's desperate fight. An example: France 2005, alonso 0,5sec per lap slower, but he won due to Montoya's crash (or something, i dun't remember) and Kimi's motor failure on friday's practice.

Kimi hasn't won the championship due to McLaren (and also some errors made by Kimi), they would have ended every single race of the season if they'd have been more clever.

Anywayz, I still think Alonso has been the best driver in ALL the aspects (fast on 1st half, relaxed and waiting to win the campionship on 2nd half). And Renault, as the best team (Briattore sublime, he has drove Renault to driver's championship, lets see now what can he do in the next 2 races to win constructor's championship).

 

[kensei]

Yo, McLaren's unreliability is all McLaren's & Kimi's fault. If they'd slown down since the first seasons race, Kimi would be the world champion, and he'd not be the fastest one.

But as McLaren saw Renault gaining points, they went desperately fast to win them, they saw Kimi and Montoya breaking their cars race rear race and McLaren putted more speed in their cars, when they had to slow down and just END THE RACES IN THE PODIUM.

In fact, McLaren isn't really a better car than Renault (or at least, it wasn't in the 1st half), but McLaren got that 1 second by lap faster by forcing their car (something that Renault did in the 1st season half, when they were 1 or 2 seconds per lap faster than McLaren), and as Renault saw Alonso had a great advantage over Kimi, they relaxed the motor revs and made their car a second slower. They knew that in the 2nd half it'd be near impossible to win a single race due to McLaren's desperate fight. An example: France 2005, alonso 0,5sec per lap slower, but he won due to Montoya's crash (or something, i dun't remember) and Kimi's motor failure on friday's practice.

Kimi hasn't won the championship due to McLaren (and also some errors made by Kimi), they would have ended every single race of the season if they'd have been more clever.

Anywayz, I still think Alonso has been the best driver in ALL the aspects (fast on 1st half, relaxed and waiting to win the campionship on 2nd half). And Renault, as the best team (Briattore sublime, he has drove Renault to driver's championship, lets see now what can he do in the next 2 races to win constructor's championship).

Wrong.

It's not Kimi or JPM's fault the McMerc is unreliable. You can thank McLaren international for designing a car that is sensative and Mercedes-Benz/Ilmor for providing finely engineered engines.

F1 driver's are paid to drive the car fast and push. Both Kimi and JPM have done that.

Who has made the faster car? Depends on your what you qualify as "fast or better".

For outright pace, minus reliability the McLaren is the faster car. The Renault can't touch it for outright pace. the McLaren has a solid 1second per lap advantage everywhere, fast circuits, slow one, downforce circuits, mechnical grip circuits, on the curbs, bumpy circuits, etc etc. The Mclaren has better aerodynamics and mechanical grip. However the Renault has a larger sweet spot in it's setup and is nicer to it's tires (generally) over many laps.

Both are amazing cars in their own right.

As far as who is the faster driver...go read my post in the "Congratulations Alonso" thread....

 

[Kylehnat]

I agree... Alonso drove better in the 2nd half of the season, but IMO he went so far up the driver's championship because of the negligence of others. He got second place in Spa thanks to Pizzonia, he got first place in two or three races thanks to Raikkonen's retirements.

Ah, but let us not forget that the only reason Kimi was in it this long was due to the negligence of Alonso himself. He crashed out of the lead in Canada, and shot himself in the foot in Hungary. Had he finished where he could have in those races, the championship would have been over a long time ago, Alonso might have 2 more wins, and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Kimi has gotten pole position with a full tank of gas, and he's proven to be a much better driver time and time again (going from 5th to second, from 11th to 4th, and the like); whilst Alonso has just maintained positions.

This is true. However, let's not forget Alonso's drive in Australia. And realisitically, McLaren and Renault were miles ahead of the competition this season. It's much each easier to pass 10th through 4th place in either of these cars. The final three positions are much more difficult to steal away.

That being said, Raikkonen is an excellent driver, and if McLaren stays where they are, could win it all next year.

 

[kensei]

Let's also not forget that if it weren't for McLaren/Mercedes inability to make a solid and reliable car that Kimi should be driving for his second driver's title. Remember 2003, Kimi lost the title by two points while driving what was basically a 2 year old car after McMerc couldn't complete a "new" car for that season.

If Kimi had a car with the reliability of this years Renault he would have won the driver's title in 2003, he probably would have made 2004 more interesting and he should be well ahead this year.

People forget just what kimi was able to do with a 2 year old car in 2003. Right there should also give you a clue into who is the "better driver".

 

[Lee]

You guys have not mentioned somin about Kimi though, he is prone to mistakes of his own accord, European GP he flatspotted a tyre that took him out the race, Brazilain GP, messes up his quali lap whne he needed to be focused more than ever before, he may be nicknamed 'the iceman' but he can crack.

Alonso on the other hand has made just the one mistake that stands out this season so far, at Canada where chucked the lead away. Mentally i think Alonso is much much better, yes there is no doubt Kimi is faster, but when it comes to the complete package i honestly think Alonso pips him.

 

[kensei]

You guys have not mentioned somin about Kimi though, he is prone to mistakes of his own accord, European GP he flatspotted a tyre that took him out the race, Brazilain GP, messes up his quali lap whne he needed to be focused more than ever before, he may be nicknamed 'the iceman' but he can crack.

Alonso on the other hand has made just the one mistake that stands out this season so far, at Canada where chucked the lead away. Mentally i think Alonso is much much better, yes there is no doubt Kimi is faster, but when it comes to the complete package i honestly think Alonso pips him.

I mentioned it in the "Congrats alonso" thread. Kimi does make more mistakes but pushes harder and usually makes up for them with his pace. Alonso on the other hand makes fewer mistakes but when he does they are much more catastrophic usually eneding his race or chances.

 

[Lee]

I mentioned it in the "Congrats alonso" thread. Kimi does make more mistakes but pushes harder and usually makes up for them with his pace. Alonso on the other hand makes fewer mistakes but when he does they are much more catastrophic usually eneding his race or chances.

Oh right my bad lol didn't see, as to the constructors, once again as a complete package, Renault are worthy of the title i think, i don't hold any grudges against the McMercs but how is it fair that a inconsistant team picks up the trophy? yes they may be uber fast and everything, but that don't matter one smidgen if the car can't meet the chequard flag.

Im rooting for Renault.

 

[Solid Lifters]

If Mc/Merc made a more reliable car, Kimi wouldn't be the fastest driver in F1. Kimi pushes hard on the car; much more than Alonso. The way McLaren's cars are setup, they can't handle the pressure and strain. That's why the cars failed so much this season. They lowered the structual integrity of the car enough to be the fastest car out there. But, that's only true if you push it, and that is what Kimi did. Sometimes, a little to hard. But, it comes at a price. Dependibilty is lost for the extra gain in speed.

Flavio said he could make the Renault's a lot quicker, too. But, he wont do it. He prefers reliability, and it paid off for him this season. While Mc/Merc have chosen the, "Make the car fast, and fix what fails" approach. Renault has gone the, "Make it reliable, and figure out how to make it faster" route.

So, it ain't, "If only Merc can make a better... blah, blah, blah..." It's, "When McLaren decides to use a better made car." They use a less reliable car on purpose. But, I think it will pay off this next season. It appears they have all the kinks worked out. Notice, they haven't been having much failures lately. I see this 2005 F1 season as a big, long test session for Mc/Merc, and I think it will pay off for them next season.

 

[kensei]

If Mc/Merc made a more reliable car, Kimi wouldn't be the fastest driver in F1. Kimi pushes hard on the car; much more than Alonso. The way McLaren's cars are setup, they can't handle the pressure and strain. That's why the cars failed so much this season. They lowered the structual integrity of the car enough to be the fastest car out there. But, that's only true if you push it, and that is what Kimi did. Sometimes, a little to hard. But, it comes at a price. Dependibilty is lost for the extra gain in speed.

Flavio said he could make the Renault's a lot quicker, too. But, he wont do it. He prefers reliability, and it paid off for him this season. While Mc/Merc have chosen the, "Make the car fast, and fix what fails" approach. Renault has gone the, "Make it reliable, and figure out how to make it faster" route.

So, it ain't, "If only Merc can make a better... blah, blah, blah..." It's, "When McLaren decides to use a better made car." They use a less reliable car on purpose. But, I think it will pay off this next season. It appears they have all the kinks worked out. Notice, they haven't been having much failures lately. I see this 2005 F1 season as a big, long test session for Mc/Merc, and I think it will pay off for them next season.

I do agree McMrec pushed the boundries of their car this year which has caused some reliability with it but the majority of the unreliability is the Mercedes engine..which has a 10 year history with McLaren and being unreliable.

Constructing an F1 car is all about engineering and making choices. Favor X at the fault of Y...things like that. I like to see a team push the boundries in design like McLaren do. So what if the car fails. it doesn't make their acheivement any less. Grand prix racing is littered with fast and fragile cars, in fact most race cars are.

Remember the MP4-17d (2003)...the thing was a tank on 2002 and 2003. Not only was it a tank but the car won races. Yes the MP4-18 was a flop but it lead to the MP4-19 which was fast but very unreliable. In contrast the MP4-20 is very reliable in it's chassis.

The Mercedes engine is ALWAYS the problem in McMercs.

 

[darkfinal]

If Mc/Merc made a more reliable car, Kimi wouldn't be the fastest driver in F1. Kimi pushes hard on the car; much more than Alonso. The way McLaren's cars are setup, they can't handle the pressure and strain. That's why the cars failed so much this season. They lowered the structual integrity of the car enough to be the fastest car out there. But, that's only true if you push it, and that is what Kimi did. Sometimes, a little to hard. But, it comes at a price. Dependibilty is lost for the extra gain in speed.

Flavio said he could make the Renault's a lot quicker, too. But, he wont do it. He prefers reliability, and it paid off for him this season. While Mc/Merc have chosen the, "Make the car fast, and fix what fails" approach. Renault has gone the, "Make it reliable, and figure out how to make it faster" route.

So, it ain't, "If only Merc can make a better... blah, blah, blah..." It's, "When McLaren decides to use a better made car." They use a less reliable car on purpose. But, I think it will pay off this next season. It appears they have all the kinks worked out. Notice, they haven't been having much failures lately. I see this 2005 F1 season as a big, long test session for Mc/Merc, and I think it will pay off for them next season.

Just what I wanted to say (blame meh bad english)

 

[Young_Warrior]

You guys have not mentioned somin about Kimi though, he is prone to mistakes of his own accord, European GP he flatspotted a tyre that took him out the race, Brazilain GP, messes up his quali lap whne he needed to be focused more than ever before, he may be nicknamed 'the iceman' but he can crack.

Alonso on the other hand has made just the one mistake that stands out this season so far, at Canada where chucked the lead away. Mentally i think Alonso is much much better, yes there is no doubt Kimi is faster, but when it comes to the complete package i honestly think Alonso pips him.

One mistake out of over a hundread odd races. Alonso made more mistakes this season than kimi.

 

[Young_Warrior]

If Mc/Merc made a more reliable car, Kimi wouldn't be the fastest driver in F1. Kimi pushes hard on the car; much more than Alonso. The way McLaren's cars are setup, they can't handle the pressure and strain. That's why the cars failed so much this season. They lowered the structual integrity of the car enough to be the fastest car out there. But, that's only true if you push it, and that is what Kimi did. Sometimes, a little to hard. But, it comes at a price. Dependibilty is lost for the extra gain in speed.

Flavio said he could make the Renault's a lot quicker, too. But, he wont do it. He prefers reliability, and it paid off for him this season. While Mc/Merc have chosen the, "Make the car fast, and fix what fails" approach. Renault has gone the, "Make it reliable, and figure out how to make it faster" route.

So, it ain't, "If only Merc can make a better... blah, blah, blah..." It's, "When McLaren decides to use a better made car." They use a less reliable car on purpose. But, I think it will pay off this next season. It appears they have all the kinks worked out. Notice, they haven't been having much failures lately. I see this 2005 F1 season as a big, long test session for Mc/Merc, and I think it will pay off for them next season.

New engines next season. Also all this bull about kimi pushing the car too hard well how else can you drive faster than anyone else without pushing the car hard. Other drivers couldnt push their cars as hard because they dont have the skill. When kimi first started racing he couldnt afford new tyres for his race car so instead of replacing them every race like all the other competitors kimi used the same tyres for up to 3 races yet he still won the championship now that is skill. He is the master of nursing tyres if he needs to.

Also we all know that flavio is mostly talk and even though yes he probaly could have made the renault faster the Mclaren would have still pwned owned and handed renaults ass.

 

[Solid Lifters]

New engines next season. Also all this bull about kimi pushing the car too hard well how else can you drive faster than anyone else without pushing the car hard. Other drivers couldnt push their cars as hard because they dont have the skill. When kimi first started racing he couldnt afford new tyres for his race car so instead of replacing them every race like all the other competitors kimi used the same tyres for up to 3 races yet he still won the championship now that is skill. He is the master of nursing tyres if he needs to.

Also we all know that flavio is mostly talk and even though yes he probaly could have made the renault faster the Mclaren would have still pwned owned and handed renaults ass.

Heh. Such garbage. Kimi made a lot of mistakes. One that took him out of the race. So did Alonso. To say Kimi doesn't make the same mistakes as Alonso is not at all accurate and is just the rantings of a childish person with obvious Alonso issues.

 

[Blake]

how is it fair that a inconsistant team picks up the trophy? yes they may be uber fast and everything, but that don't matter one smidgen if the car can't meet the chequard flag.

Well they wouldn't win it if the car didn't meet the flag. You don't get any points for not finishing, but mcLaren have more points.

People seem to exagerrate McLarens reliability porblems. Remember, expect for the USGP, at least one McLaren has finished every race in the points! The car can meet the flag, the car has met the flag over 50% of the time, the car has been faster than Renault, and they have currently got more points. How is that not fair?

Blake

 

[Kylehnat]

Remember, expect for the USGP, at least one McLaren has finished every race in the points!
Blake

Imola?

Edit: I take that back. Forgot Wurz was in the car then, not Montoya.

 

[Diego440]

until the time when we can get robots to drive the F1 cars, human drivers will make mistakes. And frankly, I'd rather have it like that.

As for reliability, I'd prefer a driver who pushes the limit than one who drives like my grandma. But I get the point. It just seems Kimi has "shown his teeth" more often, since he has had to pass more people and drive with a sharper edge, whereas Alonso hasn't really passed anyone in an impressive manner, but has avoided being passed, which is commendable as well.

If driving with a sharper edge is ONE of the reasons for engine failures, then so be it. Make the engines harder, but don't make the drivers softer. Any softer and before you know it they'll be racing in ovals, doing 200+ laps and most of the drivers will be rednecks.

 

[Lee]

Well they wouldn't win it if the car didn't meet the flag. You don't get any points for not finishing, but mcLaren have more points.

People seem to exagerrate McLarens reliability porblems. Remember, expect for the USGP, at least one McLaren has finished every race in the points! The car can meet the flag, the car has met the flag over 50% of the time, the car has been faster than Renault, and they have currently got more points. How is that not fair?

Blake

Keep on forgetting that, ok you have a point but McLaren have made it hard for themselves up till now, i suppose both teams deserve it really.

 

[pSI civic]

Any softer and before you know it they'll be racing in ovals, doing 200+ laps and most of the drivers will be rednecks.

or they will be using push to pass and running into the back of the leader win hes about to pit.