Britain - The Official Thread

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How will you vote in the 2019 UK General Election?

  • The Brexit Party

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Change UK/The Independent Group

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Conservative Party

    Votes: 3 7.5%
  • Green Party

    Votes: 2 5.0%
  • Labour Party

    Votes: 11 27.5%
  • Liberal Democrats

    Votes: 8 20.0%
  • Other (Wales/Scotland/Northern Ireland)

    Votes: 3 7.5%
  • Other Independents

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other Parties

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Spoiled Ballot

    Votes: 2 5.0%
  • Will Not/Cannot Vote

    Votes: 11 27.5%

  • Total voters
    40
  • Poll closed .
This is what we have to look forward to this summer...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-56575135

There has already been a few incidents like this in parks in Glasgow, and I expect if pubs and clubs fail to open fully, this kind of thing will become more and more prevalent.

My friends and I were talking about this on Zoom at the weekend and we all seem to agree that this summer is going to be carnage..
 
What you don't see is that they all had at least three different flavours of crisps, along with some scotch eggs.
 
Government report finds that Britain isn't institutionally racist.

Full report can be found here

Haven't read it yet but from the commentary so far it seems this was the wrong conclusion to reach considering the evidence.
A government that denies structural racisms exists, forms a committee made up almost entirely of people who have stated that they don't believe structural racism exists, oddly come to the conclusion (despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary) that structural racism doesn't exist! Oh, and lead by someone who said only three years ago investigating racial inequality was 'dangerous and divisive', mind you she did do it in a publication that once published an op-ed white-knighting the actions of the German army during WW2 (oh and guess who was editor of the Spectator when this piece went to press - why that would be Boris Johnson)!

Colour me shocked.

It gets better, not only is the UK not structurally racist, but we are in fact a model for other majority-white countries!

Unsurprisingly (and correctly) the pushback has been rather significant.

“it fails to explore disproportionality in school exclusion, eurocentrism and censorship in the curriculum, or the ongoing attainment gap in higher education.

“We are also disappointed to learn that the report overlooks disproportionality in the criminal justice system – particularly as police racism served as the catalyst for last summer’s protests. Black people in England and Wales are nine times more likely to be imprisoned than their white peers, and yet, four years on, the recommendations from the Lammy review are yet to be implemented.”

“The facts about institutional racism do not lie, and we note with some surprise that, no matter how much spin the commission puts on its findings, it does in fact concede that we do not live in a post-racist society.”

“government level gaslighting”

“We would argue that you cannot tackle structural racism if you don’t believe it exists. The only substantive thing in the report is the decree that the public sector should stop using the term BAME; 250,000 people didn’t march through our cities during a pandemic demanding better syntax.”

“perplexed by the fact that the report claims to reject the term BAME, describing it as ‘of limited value’, yet uses the category to analyse income gaps. I’m doing so, the commission insidiously disguises the inequalities faced by Bangladeshi, Pakistani, Caribbean and African workers”.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ial-equality-no-10s-race-commission-concludes

It's already led to one government advisor resigning as a result

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...y-after-uk-structural-racism-report-published
 
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It's not even difficult to find contradictions in the report either.

With it saying:

"It is certainly true that the concept of racism has become much more fluid, extending from overt hostility and exclusion to unconscious bias and microaggressions"

You would think they would then recommend that something be done to continue to address not just overt racism, but also unconscious bias and micro aggressions, that would seem reasonable?

Nope:

The Commissioners were not impressed by those companies that pointed to their ‘unconscious bias’ training as proof of their progressive credentials. We were impressed by more conscious attempts to foster talent from a wide range of backgrounds.

The Commission calls on organisations to now move away from funding unconscious bias training.

These resources should include guidance for employers, and be piloted in the Civil Service to replace the use of unconscious bias training.

So despite identifying it as a growing issue, they call fro an end to awareness around it not once, but three times.

I've read the whole report overnight and to be honest the crux of it can be pretty much summed up in two ways:

  • Stop talking about race and racism and it will go away
  • Will you shut up if we make people give you better jobs

Sometimes I ****ing hate living in this country.
 
Well this is not a good look for the report

Not consulted.jpg
 
I actually don't think that the UK is institutionally racist, at least in the very specific senses of both words; our bodies and structures aren't set up in a manner that specifically excludes those outside the "ruling" race, and you're not automatically more privileged if you're a member of that race.

This latter point is relatively easy to prove. If I were to type the word "chav", your mental image right now will be a scrawny white kid in recognisably branded sportswear. Chavs aren't exactly socially mobile and getting into positions of power - they're white and underprivileged.


What we are is institutionally classist - the issue isn't so much black and white as it is poverty. For decades we've put immigrant afro-caribbean families into the same socialised housing on sink estates that produce the chavs, where the guys with the most money, power, and influence are the people who exploit others and do the most crime. Those that do get put away come out better at doing crime, and the kids look up to them because they have lots of nice stuff and cars, and they cut anyone who crosses them, and it seems cool. They grow up to be them - they don't have to care about school (so they get kicked out and get no qualifications, making it impossible to get out of the cycle) because it's not a necessary aspect of that life. Lather, rinse, repeat, get stabbed to death somewhere between 16 and 35 (after reproducing, so your kids want to get the same power/money/influence and kill the guys that killed you).

Meanwhile almost all of the middle class is white, and ABC1 jobs are white or sub-continent. That means the kids who do well in school and who get to go to private schools or grammar schools are white, Indian, and Pakistani, and they go on to get ABC1 jobs and do the same for their kids - I went to a private school in the north, and of the 175 kids in our year we had 22 Indian/Pakistani/Sri Lankan kids, two east Asians, and literally zero Afro-Caribbeans - every other kid was white. By law of averages it should have been 150 white (140 white British), 12 Asian, 7 black, and six from elsewhere, and yes, almost all of the sub-continent kids are doctors now, even Kishan who had the intellectual capacity of a tangerine and the moral compass of a hyena. I worked at a private school in Cambridge in 2007/8 and there were no non-white kids at all.


It affects more white people than black people in numerical terms, but as a proportion it affects far more of the black population than the white population, which makes it harder for the average black person to cross class boundaries than the average white person. That looks like instutional racism, but it's not because they're black, but because they're born into the poverty cycle.

We have been experimenting with breaking that in recent years though. For most developments now, there's a socialised housing requirement, which puts poorer families into nicer surroundings. Of course the locals object to poor people bringing the area down, and given that the locals are more likely white middle class and the poorer families have a higher black/white mix that looks quite like racism too (although not institutional).


We still have idiots like that woman who said David Lammy can't be English because he's Afro-Caribbean and not Anglo-Saxon (that's German-German) like her, but they're shocking because they're so unusual and don't reflect us as a nation.


Edit: This applies to papers too. The Meghan/Kate thing is often set as black/white, but Kate was posh and barely outside the Royal Family anyway, while Meghan is a common American actress. Raheem Sterling/Phil Foden is also an example used to show how racist the press is, but Foden's a posh boy from Stockport who went to an RC grammar school, while Sterling is Jamaican-born and went to a naughty boys' school in London - and also somewhat wound people up when he held Liverpool to ransom over his transfer to Manchester City (courtesy of his agent Aidy Ward). Again, one only has to look at how the press treated footballers who were poor white boys - Beckham (before he became quasi-royalty, now they fawn over him and ignore his wandering penis), Rooney, Gascoigne - to see that it's class before race.
 
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I actually don't think that the UK is institutionally racist, at least in the very specific senses of both words; our bodies and structures aren't set up in a manner that specifically excludes those outside the "ruling" race, and you're not automatically more privileged if you're a member of that race.

This latter point is relatively easy to prove. If I were to type the word "chav", your mental image right now will be a scrawny white kid in recognisably branded sportswear. Chavs aren't exactly socially mobile and getting into positions of power - they're white and underprivileged.


What we are is institutionally classist - the issue isn't so much black and white as it is poverty. For decades we've put immigrant afro-caribbean families into the same socialised housing on sink estates that produce the chavs, where the guys with the most money, power, and influence are the people who exploit others and do the most crime. Those that do get put away come out better at doing crime, and the kids look up to them because they have lots of nice stuff and cars, and they cut anyone who crosses them, and it seems cool. They grow up to be them - they don't have to care about school (so they get kicked out and get no qualifications, making it impossible to get out of the cycle) because it's not a necessary aspect of that life. Lather, rinse, repeat, get stabbed to death somewhere between 16 and 35 (after reproducing, so your kids want to get the same power/money/influence and kill the guys that killed you).

Meanwhile almost all of the middle class is white, and ABC1 jobs are white or sub-continent. That means the kids who do well in school and who get to go to private schools or grammar schools are white, Indian, and Pakistani, and they go on to get ABC1 jobs and do the same for their kids - I went to a private school in the north, and of the 175 kids in our year we had 22 Indian/Pakistani/Sri Lankan kids, two east Asians, and literally zero Afro-Caribbeans - every other kid was white. By law of averages it should have been 150 white (140 white British), 12 Asian, 7 black, and six from elsewhere, and yes, almost all of the sub-continent kids are doctors now, even Kishan who had the intellectual capacity of a tangerine and the moral compass of a hyena. I worked at a private school in Cambridge in 2007/8 and there were no non-white kids at all.


It affects more white people than black people in numerical terms, but as a proportion it affects far more of the black population than the white population, which makes it harder for the average black person to cross class boundaries than the average white person. That looks like instutional racism, but it's not because they're black, but because they're born into the poverty cycle.

We have been experimenting with breaking that in recent years though. For most developments now, there's a socialised housing requirement, which puts poorer families into nicer surroundings. Of course the locals object to poor people bringing the area down, and given that the locals are more likely white middle class and the poorer families have a higher black/white mix that looks quite like racism too (although not institutional).


We still have idiots like that woman who said David Lammy can't be English because he's Afro-Caribbean and not Anglo-Saxon (that's German-German) like her, but they're shocking because they're so unusual and don't reflect us as a nation.
I don't disagree that the UK is classist, it most certainly is, but that doesn't exclude it being structurally and institutionally racist.

Plenty of evidence exists to show that it is, in fact, both.

One example of this is the Lammy report itself (many of the recommendations of which have still not been put in place), which looked at the Criminal Justice System. Only one area of the CJS has what the report described as a good degree of proportionality in outcomes based on race, which was the CPS, the CPS is also the only one of the areas of the CJS to have a workforce diversity that is in line with the country across all levels of its structure.

"One of the most notable features of the CPS, within the wider family of CJS institutions, is the diversity of its workforce (see Figure 2). The latest CPS workforce data shows that BAME staff account for 19% of those who declared their ethnicity.94 This makes the CPS one of the most diverse institutions within the CJS – it is, in fact, more diverse that the population as a whole (BAME people made up 14% of the general population, according to the 2011 census95). Significantly, this diversity runs throughout the organisational structure – for example 15% of Senior Prosecutors in the CPS are BAME.96 This contrasts with other parts of the CJS where BAME staff are much less likely to be found in senior positions within the organisation"

Its not exempt from criticism, but this does indicate that class and wealth alone are not the only factors at play.

"In most cases, defendants’ ethnicity does not affect the likelihood that they will be charged by the CPS. Other institutions in the CJS should look carefully at the factors that have driven this, from internal and external oversight, to a workforce that reflects the society it serves. There are some areas that the CPS should address. These include worrying disparities for the specific offences of rape and domestic abuse, and the role of the CPS (alongside other CJS institutions) in tackling gang crime effectively and proportionately."

https://assets.publishing.service.g...ata/file/643001/lammy-review-final-report.pdf

A similar pattern emerges when at trail by Jury vs. Magistrates in the UK. Juries, when they are representative of the community in question, on balance deliver proportionate verdicts regardless of race, Magistrates do not, not even close, with a massive bias against those who are not white in verdicts. Now the report does also point out that Magistrates are underrepresented in term's of working class backgrounds as well, that however supports both assentation's, rather that eliminate one or the other.

It's also important to understand that the two are interlinked, however one is easier to escape from than the other (which is impossible). I grew up in a sink estate, I was fortunate however to never fit into a stereotype (good for ASD for once) that saw me dress like my peers, and as such I never outwardly appeared as lower working class (or as it would be termed Chav). As a result I've only every been stopped by the police once in my life and wasn't searched, but rather asked two questions and allowed to go on my way, this is despite being clearly and obviously off my face. In short, my class has been easy to 'hide' from an early age and now I sit firmly in the middle class it simply isn't an issue. No assumptions about my background, past, etc. will follow me at all, and unless I volunteer them no one would know.

The same is not true for anyone non-white, who may or may not fall into two groups subject to barriers, black and poor or black and affluent, it doesn't actually matter what the former does to appear like the latter, a perceptive link exists in UK society that will still see them in the same way.

This is further borne out by the excellent paper that the Runnymead Trust produced with the LSE, showing the interlink between racial inequality and class structure, one important part of which is that mobility results at the lowest class levels are still higher (and out of proportion) for white's versus any other ethnic or racial group (despite better academic achievement in comparison).

To cite the author:

"As a result, each time the boundary of the nation was extended to more members of the working class, this was accompanied and legitimized by a racialized nationalism that excluded more recent arrivals. This dual process of democratization and racist exclusion was to be repeated throughout the twentieth century, with different migrant groups and their English-born children in the firing line each time."

This has happened with every 'wave' as the author lists:

"Critical to this process of class formation which went through race, not around it, was a social actor that I have termed the racialized outsider – who in different historical periods happened to be Irish Catholic, Jewish, Asian, African and Caribbean."

It's also why the two factors are so interlinked, class structures themselves are sub-divided, and it's in the interest of the class that wants control that this is maintained, and a new 'lower' tier is added, and that divisions between those are created when possible.

https://www.runnymedetrust.org/uploads/publications/pdfs/Race and Class Post-Brexit Perspectives report v5.pdf
 
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I actually don't think that the UK is institutionally racist, at least in the very specific senses of both words; our bodies and structures aren't set up in a manner that specifically excludes those outside the "ruling" race, and you're not automatically more privileged if you're a member of that race.

This latter point is relatively easy to prove. If I were to type the word "chav", your mental image right now will be a scrawny white kid in recognisably branded sportswear. Chavs aren't exactly socially mobile and getting into positions of power - they're white and underprivileged.


What we are is institutionally classist - the issue isn't so much black and white as it is poverty. For decades we've put immigrant afro-caribbean families into the same socialised housing on sink estates that produce the chavs, where the guys with the most money, power, and influence are the people who exploit others and do the most crime. Those that do get put away come out better at doing crime, and the kids look up to them because they have lots of nice stuff and cars, and they cut anyone who crosses them, and it seems cool. They grow up to be them - they don't have to care about school (so they get kicked out and get no qualifications, making it impossible to get out of the cycle) because it's not a necessary aspect of that life. Lather, rinse, repeat, get stabbed to death somewhere between 16 and 35 (after reproducing, so your kids want to get the same power/money/influence and kill the guys that killed you).

Meanwhile almost all of the middle class is white, and ABC1 jobs are white or sub-continent. That means the kids who do well in school and who get to go to private schools or grammar schools are white, Indian, and Pakistani, and they go on to get ABC1 jobs and do the same for their kids - I went to a private school in the north, and of the 175 kids in our year we had 22 Indian/Pakistani/Sri Lankan kids, two east Asians, and literally zero Afro-Caribbeans - every other kid was white. By law of averages it should have been 150 white (140 white British), 12 Asian, 7 black, and six from elsewhere, and yes, almost all of the sub-continent kids are doctors now, even Kishan who had the intellectual capacity of a tangerine and the moral compass of a hyena. I worked at a private school in Cambridge in 2007/8 and there were no non-white kids at all.


It affects more white people than black people in numerical terms, but as a proportion it affects far more of the black population than the white population, which makes it harder for the average black person to cross class boundaries than the average white person. That looks like instutional racism, but it's not because they're black, but because they're born into the poverty cycle.

We have been experimenting with breaking that in recent years though. For most developments now, there's a socialised housing requirement, which puts poorer families into nicer surroundings. Of course the locals object to poor people bringing the area down, and given that the locals are more likely white middle class and the poorer families have a higher black/white mix that looks quite like racism too (although not institutional).


We still have idiots like that woman who said David Lammy can't be English because he's Afro-Caribbean and not Anglo-Saxon (that's German-German) like her, but they're shocking because they're so unusual and don't reflect us as a nation.


Edit: This applies to papers too. The Meghan/Kate thing is often set as black/white, but Kate was posh and barely outside the Royal Family anyway, while Meghan is a common American actress. Raheem Sterling/Phil Foden is also an example used to show how racist the press is, but Foden's a posh boy from Stockport who went to an RC grammar school, while Sterling is Jamaican-born and went to a naughty boys' school in London - and also somewhat wound people up when he held Liverpool to ransom over his transfer to Manchester City (courtesy of his agent Aidy Ward). Again, one only has to look at how the press treated footballers who were poor white boys - Beckham (before he became quasi-royalty, now they fawn over him and ignore his wandering penis), Rooney, Gascoigne - to see that it's class before race.
First there's the problem of defining institutional racism.

The report believes that the Macpherson definition from over 20 years ago is the best fit:

“The collective failure of an organisation to provide an appropriate and professional service to people because of their colour, culture, or ethnic origin. It can be seen or detected in processes, attitudes and behaviour which amount to discrimination through unwitting prejudice, ignorance, thoughtlessness and racist stereotyping which disadvantage minority ethnic people.”

Using that definition, can we look at studies looking at the employment sector that found that responses to CVs are seemingly influenced by the applicant's name and that white working class males have better incomes and intergenerational mobility despite lower educational attainment compared to ethnic minority working class males, and say that institutional racism may play a part?

I mean with the CV one I'd struggle to think of a cause other than racism leading to that outcome, but do we call it institutional....

Even the commission panel are divided on this issue.
 
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I missed one comment in the report last night (I was tired) which I've just seen

"There is a new story about the Caribbean experience which speaks to the slave period not only being about profit and suffering but how culturally African people transformed themselves into a re-modelled African/Britain."

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/en...slavery-education_uk_60645748c5b6a38505e12169

So the government is now trying to retcon slavery, honestly this is the UK's answer to the 1776 project!
 
I don't know what it would take to get people to stop voting Conservative. A litany of scandal, sleaze, lies, abuse, bullying, Islamophia, cronyism, defraud, defunding, austerity, incompetence, crimes violating international law, complete disregard for the pretence of a 'union' and devolution, illegal proroguing of Parliament, a tanking economy, 150,000 covid deaths with the worst insincerity of "We did everything we could", the complete omnishambles that is Brexit...

Let's look at what you might consider a typical voter:

Queen and country?
They lied to the Queen. To the Queen, her Majesty herself.

Party of business?
They've defrauded billions in public money for their own selfish ends and sold British businesses down the river.

Tough on crime and justice?
They've steered police forces and the justice system through unprecedented levels of austerity and defunding, rendering them toothless and helpless.

Controlling immigration?
They did nothing to introduce the perfectly legal and available quotas on third-national immigration available to EU member states. And even if you are a voter who is a hypocrite on the topic of immigration, they've also taken away your right to do the cliche retirement on the Costa del Gammon.

I know Tory voters exist and always have done but the classic reasons given for voting Tory don't stand up. Even if you think back to fiction archetypes like Alf Garnett and Albert Steptoe, working-class white Tory voters, they have betrayed all pretence.

This is not an endorsement of any other party; the chief opposition, the Labour Party, is a complete embarrassment but how you actually can bring yourself to vote Tory is just beyond me. (Sigh - none of the above)
 
I don't know what it would take to get people to stop voting Conservative.
I'd like to say "electoral reform and a half decent opposition" but have been reminded on this forum that the electorate rejected reform in favour of FPTP when the question was put to them. I hope proponents of ER don't give up.

Just noticed that UKIP's candidate for London mayor next month is named Peter Gammons. Well, fancy that.
 
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I hope proponents of ER don't give up.

Join us ...

https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/who-we-are/what-we-stand-for/

but have been reminded on this forum that the electorate rejected reform in favour of FPTP when the question was put to them

Inevitable really, if the largest portion of the electorate votes Tory, why would they vote to introduce something that likely reduces the number of Tory held seats. Add to that, those genuinely in favour of PR might not have wanted to vote for AV given its shortcomings.

I think we're stuck with FPTP until an incumbent government believes they need PR in order to retain their position, but I'm not sure how that situation comes about. We also then need a couple of generations to get over the two-party system, us & them, winner and loser mentality that FPTP brings with it. Hopefully the newly formed All Party Parliamentary Group for PR can have some sway, but I doubt it.
 
Even if you do look at these findings and say,"it's a class issue more than a race issue" it's still very telling how lots of people accept this report as gospel and treat it like, "See, there are ZERO problems in the UK so shut up about it."
It's certainly made racists bolder, and we do still have plenty of them. Once again we've seen this week that a footballer did a football thing and British people on social media decided to racially abuse him for it - though they've also abused Karen Carney for having an opinion while in possession of a vulva, despite her being no worse than Robbie Savage.


I don't think we're a hugely racist country. I've never had racism openly expressed to me in the UK, even in private, though I have in Spain and in Florida - people deciding that because I'm white I must understand that black people, and especially Muslims (they are the same thing after all), are the end of days - but that's not the same as us not having an issue with racism. I don't think our institutions are set up in a racist manner or with racist policies, but that's not the same as us not having racists working at them. The CV thing is interesting, because it's something I've worked with previously and have been ordered to discard candidates from the shortlist for their religion (which is illegal; it was RC vs CofE, for reference) and for their surname; certain surnames in certain areas are stigmatised more than any other factor.

In institutional terms, I think race is simply an aspect of our class problem. We have had an institutional race problem - we ghettoised immigrant ethnic minorities after all, and that's as difficult to escape from if you're black as if you're white and have the wrong surname - but I don't think modern Britain is designed to promote whiteness and suppress non-whiteness as it was, and I don't think racism is as protected as it was throughout the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s; being a racist today is only possible with other like-minded racists, rather than being so mainstream it's in sitcoms.

We're still snobs and reverse-snobs though; we don't trust people in the class below us not to steal from us, and we don't trust people in the class above us to screw us over.
 
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This would stop the Tories winning so much but it wouldn't stop people voting for them.



:lol:
I must have misread your question. I thought you were asking what would stop Tories winning all the time. I don't think anyone wants to prevent people from voting for them rather than to give plurality of opinion a fighting chance.

And what's wrong with wishing for decent or even half decent opposition? Someone has to keep the party in power relatively honest or we end up with what we have now.

As for racism, at least it's being called out when people do it now. No wonder they hate wokeism so much. Deep down they must know they aren't right.
 
I thought you were asking what would stop Tories winning all the time. I don't think anyone wants to prevent people from voting for them

No, I'm not trying to prohibit voting for them. I'm just dumbfounded as to what it would take for a current Tory voter to not vote Tory.

Like the long list I posted above about lying, defraud, abuse etc, how many more reasons does a Tory voter need? Would you stop if the Tories executed your wife and children by firing squad in front of you?
 
Would you stop if the Tories executed your wife and children by firing squad in front of you?

No, I'd be distracted by the sudden flurry of articles about Kate's new cardigan, or that fascinating new information about Diana/Churchill/Vera Lynn, or I'd be outside clapping cos gawd love em.
 
No, I'd be distracted by the sudden flurry of articles about Kate's new cardigan, or that fascinating new information about Diana/Churchill/Vera Lynn, or I'd be outside clapping cos gawd love em.
Do TV weather reporters in Britain often have big tits and provocative clothing?
 
Do TV weather reporters in Britain often have big tits and provocative clothing?
Ian McCaskill and Michael Fish used to wear kipper ties a lot... does that count?
 
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