C&D Z06 vs F430 vs 997TT

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Yours may not be Duke, but people who say 'Our Z06 beats an X car' when in comparison tests, it does not, are clealry oblivious to how we perceive your technology in the wider World. America's view isn't the Be All and End All. In a free World, your products have been found wanting. As for no experience of American cars, I have driven a Cadillac SRX, been driven in a Chevrolet Blazer and sat in numerous American cars at car shows. Not one had an interior that was in any way built to the standard which would justify its price tag.
 
Of course, because YOU value these qualities in an automobile, you make an egocentric, narrow-minded presumption that these qualities constitute "the best" qualities. Therefore the US manufactuers in question who don't cater to your tastes, but to those of *gasp* average Americans must somehow be worse than the ones that do.


I thought the people who play Gran Turismo would be *gasp* Car Enthusiasts at least, if not driving enthusiasts. Clealry some of you think your Sebring does enough to satisfy the Average American and is therefore good enough. If I had to drive an American car everyday, I'd be feeling seriously short-changed.
 
Uh...when compared with products that are of the same CLASS where exactly have they been found wanting? No, forget that. Show me a European or Japanese car that you can get for $70K USD and hange with a ferrari.

I'm not even going to touch your last post(a double post BTW) I see the hammer and nails coming now....;)
 
vectradriver
Yours may not be Duke, but people who say 'Our Z06 beats an X car' when in comparison tests, it does not, are clealry oblivious to how we perceive your technology in the wider World. America's view isn't the Be All and End All.
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But, of course, the European view is the be-all and end-all. How silly of me to have overlooked such an obvious a priori.
In a free World, your products have been found wanting.
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Actually, in a European press, and based solely on the cars exported to Europe, our products have been found wanting. Which, of course, invalidates our entire automotive industry.

Next.
As for no experience of American cars, I have driven a Cadillac SRX, been driven in a Chevrolet Blazer and sat in numerous American cars at car shows. Not one had an interior that was in any way built to the standard which would justify its price tag.
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My BMW doesn't have an interior that is in any way built to a standard that justifies its price tag when new. The seats are excellent but a serious travail to get adjusted properly. The leather is 3 years / 25,000 miles old, and shows substantial wear on the bolsters. The steering wheel feels pretty good. The dashboard is a disaster area of outdated instrumentation and switchgear. There's no room for anything larger than a pair of sunglasses anywhere in the cockpit, and to carry a drink I have choice between 7 oz pony bottles (so I can shift) or driving with the armrest flipped up (because the second cupholder is inexplicably under the armrest, rendering it nearly unusable).

But, of course, it's a European car, and therefore above reproach.
vectradriver
If I had to drive an American car everyday, I'd be feeling seriously short-changed.
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If I had to drive an average European car every day, I'd be feeling downright ripped off. Stop comparing workaday American cars to high-end European cars and then telling us that Americans cannot build automobiles.
 
I'm not even comparing average family sedans to High end European cars. No family saloon built by one of the American companies is a patch on a Ford Mondeo. The Vauxhall Vectra (the chassis used on the Malibu and G6) is as average as they come and can't touch the Mondeo for driving ability, but beats it in interior quality.

As for invalidating your car industry... Here in the UK, we get your 'best' cars. If these are found wanting, what does that say about your workaday cars?
 
vectradriver
I thought the people who play Gran Turismo would be *gasp* Car Enthusiasts at least, if not driving enthusiasts. Clealry some of you think your Sebring does enough to satisfy the Average American and is therefore good enough. If I had to drive an American car everyday, I'd be feeling seriously short-changed.
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Most of us are. But most of us are not average Americans when it comes to cars. Personally, I was driving performance cars competitively when your ride was a school bus. You're fond of the BMW M3? I've had two.

You seem to have trouble grasping this idea, so let me try putting it another way to you: what's best for you may not be the best for someone else. It's called having a difference of priorities. A large cross section of Americans see cars as an appliance. A tool for getting them from point A to point B. Driving excitment is not a requirement.

Wait now -here comes the hard part- .....and there's nothing wrong with that.


M
 
///M-Spec
A large cross section of Americans see cars as an appliance. A tool for getting them from point A to point B. Driving excitment is not a requirement.
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And - news flash for our elitist friend here - a large cross section of Europeans also see cars as a tool for getting from point A to point B, and so a large cross section of European cars (and Japanese cars) are appliances, too.

But, of course, they must be better appliances.
 
vectradriver
Yours may not be Duke, but people who say 'Our Z06 beats an X car' when in comparison tests, it does not, are clealry oblivious to how we perceive your technology in the wider World. America's view isn't the Be All and End All. In a free World, your products have been found wanting. As for no experience of American cars, I have driven a Cadillac SRX, been driven in a Chevrolet Blazer and sat in numerous American cars at car shows. Not one had an interior that was in any way built to the standard which would justify its price tag.
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I think you'll find that in the UK, not much comes close to the Z06 for price, it's the one American sportscar that is priced cheap here as well as being actually as good as they claim. It's £60k about $110kUSD, and not much get's you round the TopGear track in under 1'22.5 INCLUDING the Ferrari F430 F1, Lamborghini Murcielago and the Pagani Zonda C12 S 7.3. Sure it's a bit stiff for our roads, but let's face it, the Z06 wasn't built for the roads, as Clarkson said, if you want one for road use, get the standard C6, but for a track performance car, not much can keep up that's cheaper, and what is cheaper and as fast usually doesn't even have an attachable roof.

I will agree with you, %90+ American cars we get have crappy interiors, I know I wouldn't buy one because of that, but like I said in the other thread, the bits of info you are saying that are right are being clouded by your method of putting your opinion across and your blatand disregard for American cars as a result. The very best American sedans and trucks do not see our shores.
 
Make way for the GM guy once again....

1) GM blew through market expectations for this past quarter, and are on their way to turning a profit this year between GM North America, GM Europe, and GM Asia. So don't even start with a "American car comapnies can't turn a profit" thing...

2) Interior quality is on the rise in the overwhelming majority of American cars, and hand-to-God, quite a few GM products were nominated for top-honors for best interiors this past year against *gasp* BMWs, Audis, Mazdas, Hondas, etc. Granted, they aren't the highest quality interiors in many circumstances, but you can't expect BMW-quality in a Chevrolet Cobalt that costs $16,000 USD.

3) I think you need to remember that the last time the Mondeo was sold in the US (badged as the Contour and Mystique) it flopped just as bad as the Merkur XR4Ti that was supposed to be "grand" from Europe as well. The car was too small, and generally wasn't built well enough for the American market, so Ford kept on selling Escorts and Focuses, and the Contour set idle (yes, even the SVT version).

4) You also need to keep in mind that the overwhelming majority of European cars sold in the United States are sold at a premium price by comparison to American, Japanese, and Korean models. Granted you are argueably getting a better car in many circumstances, it often isn't by much, and thus people go elsewhere. I'm a European car guy (American comes first obviously), and I love to recomend European cars to people when they are car shopping. But I always warn them about the higher insurance costs, higher replacement parts costs, and the differences in the ride between the American and European cars.

5) Your assumptions of American cars are pretty poor considering that youve ridden in an SRX (has won a 5 Best SUV award from Car and Driver the past three or four years), and sat in others. Have you driven them? I mean the majority of them? Like, I dunno, ONES WE HAVE HERE IN AMERICA??????

We may send the "best" to Europe, but what does that include? The Corvette, the Mustang, the 300C, the Viper, the CTS, the SRX, the Escalade? I really can't think of anything else... To make a complete guestiamte as to how "bad" American cars are, you would have to come here and actually see what the American market has.

Shooting blanks from your home in the UK makes you sound like an idiot when it is quite obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about. Atleast in America we get not only our American cars, but a good number of the cars sold in Europe and Asia as well. I don't outright say that "I hate the Renault Espace because it was built in France, and they only know how to do is wave a white flag. I sat in a Renalut LeCar once, and because it was a piece of junk, all French cars must be."

Come to America and see how it is, you might be surprised...
 
YSSMAN
The Corvette, the Mustang, the 300C, the Viper, the CTS, the SRX, the Escalade? I really can't think of anything else...
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Domestic cars presently officially sold in the UK

- Cadillac CTS
- Cadillac XLR
- Chevrolet Corvette
- Chrysler PT Cruiser
- Chrysler Voyager/Grand Voyager (USA: Dodge Caravan/Grand Caravan, Chrysler Town & Country)
- Chrysler 300
- Chrysler Crossfire
- Dodge Viper
- Jeep Wrangler
- Jeep Cherokee (USA: Jeep Liberty)
- Jeep Grand Cherokee
 
Whoa! Since when do SPORTSCARS have to have a track version to be fitted into the same category? Is that to say that a Ferrari F430 [which, last I checked is a sportscar and not a grocery getter (correct me in Ferrari produced a FWD 160hp 1.6L hatchback beaing the same name since I checked)] can not be driven on a race track? As for the Porsches, the 997T is the most powerful version available and with AWD, the RS is a stripped out version that is intended to be a race car for the road. Whereas the 997T is completely at home on the road with a pretty civil interior, the RS gets by with just what it needs to have. Its the type of car that somebody would buy for serious track use and either modify it further for better track performance or keep it as it is for a great weekend track car that they can still cruise around in.

And JCE, which nationality should we call you then? Does illegal immigrant fit? Don't take that as any offense or anything (unless you are), because if you live here permanently like I'm sure you do, you're an American. If you don't like it you can move to Canada or some third world country.

Edit: @M5Power: Are those really the only cars or is that just what you can think of? No Fords are exported? I guess Ford Europe handles that on its own.
 
i live here permanently and im definitely not an american, nor am i an illegal immigrant.

and lets not forget, america is a huge landmass comprised of two continents and three geographical regions. a native indian living on the shores of lake titicaca in peru is just as "american" as you. as is the despised illegal immigrant from any of the central and south american countries. id go so far as to include the caribbean.
 
quality post number 60; check

i really think this nimcom(female part we all like) is reacting to the typical boorish 'loud american tourist", but doing it in a car forum on car matters. he cant even define what it is he derides in american cars, nor pinpoint exactly what it is that makes the european cars better.

hey, (a 3 letter word for donkey)clown, i dont like the typical "loud american tourist" either (and i live a in country seemingly completely populted by them, hell its where they come from) but ive got the common sense to stick to what i know and argue the facts, not rhetoric.


and FYI, most americans, while mostly ignorant of the goings on in the rest of the world and seeming impervoius to the existence of a "rest of the world", are nice people. so stuff it. or sod off.

edited after i was given a chiding by moderator.
 
I hate it when I miss these flamefests! :lol:

Duke
And some of them even have - horrors - pushrods in the engine!
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Don't forget the leaf springs... it ain't a Corvette without leaf springs... :nervous:

vectradriver
Not one had an interior that was in any way built to the standard which would justify its price tag.
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I've never seen a Toyota interior (except maybe in a Camry) that would validate the price tag... even new Hondas get plastic as crummy as Ford uses nowadays.

vectradriver
Of course, because YOU value these qualities in an automobile, you make an egocentric, narrow-minded presumption that these qualities constitute "the best" qualities. Therefore the US manufactuers in question who don't cater to your tastes, but to those of *gasp* average Americans must somehow be worse than the ones that do.

I thought the people who play Gran Turismo would be *gasp* Car Enthusiasts at least, if not driving enthusiasts. Clealry some of you think your Sebring does enough to satisfy the Average American and is therefore good enough. If I had to drive an American car everyday, I'd be feeling seriously short-changed.
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Talk about egocentric, narrow-minded... My tastes are decidedly Japanese. I like small, high-strung engines, a stiff ride and good handling, but I'm not claiming these are the only things that count. I haven't noticed anyone here saying that the Corvette's interior is anything to write home about... they're just saying that it's (one of) the fastest GT(s) you can get for the money and that it's comfortable (not a claim you could make about a Viper, for sure).

And, last time I looked, no one in here ever claimed to drive a Sebring... did they? Wait a second, who are you actually talking to? Is there some weird alternate universe where you're reading our responses from?

-----

Now, let's ask you the same question... if you're such a damn car enthusiast, why are you driving a Vectra? Last I looked, it's a car made by an American-owned company, not at all top-hat amongst sport sedans... in fact, it's a perfectly average car. Now shouldn't a driving enthusiast be driving something more enthusiastic? Like a Bimmer? :lol:

Silly question, isn't it? A real driving enthusiast would say: sure it's a Vectra, but I can still have fun with it. A driving enthusiast can appreciate any halfway decent car, no matter what cockamanie badge is on the grille.

Before you start calling people names, look at what they're saying and what they're driving... it'd be a real eye-opener.

-----

EDIT: no offense to Vectra owners out there, I think it's a perfectly acceptable car... except for the typically difficult maintenance and service issues GM-Opels have here in Asia... :lol:
 
M5Power
Domestic cars presently officially sold in the UK

- Cadillac CTS
- Cadillac XLR
- Chevrolet Corvette
- Chrysler PT Cruiser
- Chrysler Voyager/Grand Voyager (USA: Dodge Caravan/Grand Caravan, Chrysler Town & Country)
- Chrysler 300
- Chrysler Crossfire
- Dodge Viper
- Jeep Wrangler
- Jeep Cherokee (USA: Jeep Liberty)
- Jeep Grand Cherokee
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What about the Jeep comander, or is that Europe only? :p

I know the Mustang isn't sold officially, but there's a strong import system for it, and also there's quite a few Hummers that have been shipped over.
 
ExigeExcel
What about the Jeep comander, or is that Europe only? :p
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As of six weeks ago, the Commander wasn't officially sold in the UK - is it sold on the mainland?

I know the Mustang isn't sold officially, but there's a strong import system for it, and also there's quite a few Hummers that have been shipped over.
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Indeed indeed - and there are others as well. I believe the Cadillac Escalade sells fairly well as gray market vehicles go as well.
 
M5Power
As of six weeks ago, the Commander wasn't officially sold in the UK - is it sold on the mainland?
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I'm quite sure it is now. 'Honest John' of the Daily Telegraph motoring has began recommending it as a large 4x4 and a quiick check on www.jeep.co.uk shows that it is, for a price of £27,490 OTR.
 
- Cadillac CTS - Never seen one on the road, priced too high for what it offers.
- Cadillac XLR - Never seen one in a showroom let alone on the road, didn't get great reviews.
- Chrysler PT Cruiser - Didn't get great reviews but sold okay.
- Chrysler Voyager/Grand Voyager (USA: Dodge Caravan/Grand Caravan, Chrysler Town & Country) - I've seen one or two, don't know how it did in reviews.
- Chrysler 300 - Poor interior quality compared to competition, too expensive for what it is.
- Chrysler Crossfire - Same as 300C.
- Dodge Viper - Got good reviews, a bit expensive for what it is but people loved it.
- Jeep - Don't know much about any of the Jeeps but we don't see many of them.
 
Uh...when compared with products that are of the same CLASS where exactly have they been found wanting? No, forget that. Show me a European or Japanese car that you can get for $70K USD and hange with a ferrari.
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I could show you plenty that would crap all over ferraris for alot less than $70K USD, but this type of argument is really besides the point. Aas an example, if porsche wanted to they could sell they GT3 for $70K and still make a profit.

For the record, the 997T is overall easily the fastest car when it comes to day to day driving.
 
live4speed
- Jeep - Don't know much about any of the Jeeps but we don't see many of them.
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Really? - i see thousands on a daily basis, and i'm only on the other side of the 'hills' to you.
 
^^ I hate those cars soooooooo much :yuck:

I seriously which we would ban SUV's or tax them so heavy only the people that really require them would buy them.
 
Poverty
^^ I hate those cars soooooooo much :yuck:

I seriously which we would ban SUV's or tax them so heavy only the people that really require them would buy them.
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Why would heavy tax make it so that only the needy could have one?
 
I drive a Vectra because it is my Dad's car. Yes I do enjoy it, but while it is average, it has still been tuned to handle better than the equivalent American car. The Vectra's strength is grip, because understeer isn't really a problem on most corners. Yes it has sloppy steering, but it can get through corners with little drama. Yes there may be cars that can hang with Ferrari's in America, but thats in America. When it comes to corners, the Ferrari would be able to handle its power output far better than some of these cars that could hang with it in a straight line. Ferrari isn't a company about outright speed. They have an understanding of what makes a car great beyond its sheer speed.
 
If your Vectra doesn't understeer, you're not driving it hard enough. I'm not suggesting you do, but it's true. All cars understeer. Especially front drivers like the Vectra. Even my car, which is about as neutral as a front driver can get without being seriously compromised for the road.

And what does make a Ferrari better than any other car in the universe? The high price? The expensive (and fragile) spares? The ridiculously high price?

There are cars that are better point-point than a Ferrari. There are cars that communicate and handle better than Ferraris. They're called NSXs. Heck, that's why they came up with the 360 and 430 in the first place, as many road-going Ferraris of that time had pretty dodgy handling compared to Honda's similarly ridiculously overpriced supercar.

There are no automotive absolutes... and no absolute truisms. To make any general or sweeping statements about cars based on where they're built is a good way to get pie in your face.

Especially with progress. Ten years ago, if I'd told you all front-wheelers handled like crap, I might have been right... if I'd told you all Korean cars were pieces of crap that wouldn't last a thousand miles, I probably would have been...

But with automotive progress as it is, you can't make ready assumptions anymore. Hyundais nowadays actually last a pretty long time (But Daewoos are still crappy).

America still makes barges and boats, yes, but they've learned to make cars handle, too... see Lincoln LS, Dodge Neon (even just the R/T), the new Corvette Z06...

But of course, if you're adamant that all US cars are crap, then congratulations, you're an automotive racist. :lol: That makes you just as bad as the guys who say anything without a V8 is crap, or that all Japanese cars are rice...
 
niky
Talk about egocentric, narrow-minded... My tastes are decidedly Japanese. I like small, high-strung engines, a stiff ride and good handling, but I'm not claiming these are the only things that count. I haven't noticed anyone here saying that the Corvette's interior is anything to write home about... they're just saying that it's (one of) the fastest GT(s) you can get for the money and that it's comfortable (not a claim you could make about a Viper, for sure).
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The "egocentric, narrow-minded" bit was originally posted by me, btw. He apparantly wanted to quote my original post, but instead of hitting 'reply', just copied-n-pasted my text into his reply.


vectradriver
I drive a Vectra because it is my Dad's car. Yes I do enjoy it, but while it is average, it has still been tuned to handle better than the equivalent American car.
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Which 'equivalent American car'? Be specific. What handling qualities in particular? Have you actually driven this car in question or are you just assuming this because this is what you want to believe rather than have experienced?


Re: The Corvette's interior sucking.

Actually, the Corvette has an optional interior far superior to the Porsche's or the Ferrari's. For the price of an F430, you could buy a Z06 and an interior of an Audi A8L. This is handy because the interior also comes attached to a car. With the leftover money you can also have a BMW 325i for your grocery runs at Costco and a Yamaha YZF-R1, for which you can use to suck the headlights right out of both the Corvette and Ferrari.


M
 
Poverty
^^ I hate those cars soooooooo much :yuck:

I seriously which we would ban SUV's or tax them so heavy only the people that really require them would buy them.
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So you don't like them and that should allow you to determine who can and can't drive them?

My father has a Series III Land Rover and a Disco, can you please define exactly what qualities he needs to be classed as someone who really requires them?

Additionally exactly what purpose whould banning them have? Could we please see a list of possitive benefits banning all SUVs would have?

Scaff
 
///M-Spec
Re: The Corvette's interior sucking.

Actually, the Corvette has an optional interior far superior to the Porsche's or the Ferrari's. For the price of an F430, you could buy a Z06 and an interior of an Audi A8L. This is handy because the interior also comes attached with a car.
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This is a fair point 👍 but if you go down this ally you could buy a A8L plus an Ultima 640gtr and have a car with Veyron beating performance and a great interior with a car attached etc etc :sly:
 

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