Can a car brake into a corner with ABS like in the game in real life?

[newbielives]

Interesting info, so from your experience is GT5's representation of ABS braking realistic ?

ABS isn't going to kill you in slippery conditions unless you're going way too fast to stop, in the first place.

The one problem with ABS in emergency situations is that people will have more control under braking than they're used to... in other words, they MAY tend to over-exaggerate steering motions, which means they will veer out of control under ABS... whereas they would simply slide with no ABS... but that only goes for people who are used to locking brakes. People who are used to ABS will have no such problems.

On the race track, ABS allows you to carry more speed into a corner and to turn under braking with less understeer. Instability can arise if the car's brake bias is incorrect and if the rear tires come too far unloaded, but when properly set, ABS can lead to faster laps simply because they make trail-braking that much easier. We're taught on the race track to take full advantage of ABS, but only after being taught the "proper" way to brake for a corner, as not all cars have it, and most race cars don't.

However, they're banned from competition only partly because they lead to faster laps and less tire wear. The big reason sporting bodies don't like ABS is because clever engineers can use ABS to actively tune out oversteer or understeer, much as electronic stability systems do on road cars... with computer-controlled ABS and traction control, a car can be programmed so all a driver has to do is keep his foot pinned to the throttle and steer. I remember this was demonstrated in Indy or FedEX CART before, and rumors were that one F1 team also did it, but I can't recall which one.

 

[sins1er]

Exactly CSLACR... that's watbi was trying to tell these kids on the other thread... They ar trying to trailbrake these cars... If u have to trailbrake yer doing something wrong...

 

[CarBastard]

ABS isn't going to kill you in slippery conditions unless you're going way too fast to stop, in the first place.

The one problem with ABS in emergency situations is that people will have more control under braking than they're used to... in other words, they MAY tend to over-exaggerate steering motions, which means they will veer out of control under ABS... whereas they would simply slide with no ABS... but that only goes for people who are used to locking brakes. People who are used to ABS will have no such problems.

On the race track, ABS allows you to carry more speed into a corner and to turn under braking with less understeer. Instability can arise if the car's brake bias is incorrect and if the rear tires come too far unloaded, but when properly set, ABS can lead to faster laps simply because they make trail-braking that much easier. We're taught on the race track to take full advantage of ABS, but only after being taught the "proper" way to brake for a corner, as not all cars have it, and most race cars don't.

However, they're banned from competition only partly because they lead to faster laps and less tire wear. The big reason sporting bodies don't like ABS is because clever engineers can use ABS to actively tune out oversteer or understeer, much as electronic stability systems do on road cars... with computer-controlled ABS and traction control, a car can be programmed so all a driver has to do is keep his foot pinned to the throttle and steer. I remember this was demonstrated in Indy or FedEX CART before, and rumors were that one F1 team also did it, but I can't recall which one.

Quite a helpful insight, thanks a lot Sir 👍.

May I, quite ignorantly if I may, ask where do you learn all this stuff? Maybe it's not late for me to learn all of this

 

[sins1er]

I've been road racing since for 17 years...so ALOT of what I know from trial and error and other vet drivers. Bt I'm sure that anything u want to know is on the Internet ripe for the picking. Feel free to pm me if u have any questions. I'll try to answer u the best I can.

 

[CSLACR]

Exactly CSLACR... that's watbi was trying to tell these kids on the other thread... They ar trying to trailbrake these cars... If u have to trailbrake yer doing something wrong...

Depending on the car, trail-braking can be a must.

 

[CarBastard]

I've been road racing since for 17 years...so ALOT of what I know from trial and error and other vet drivers. Bt I'm sure that anything u want to know is on the Internet ripe for the picking. Feel free to pm me if u have any questions. I'll try to answer u the best I can.

Thanks a lot man 👍.

 

[sins1er]

There IS a place for trail braking... But it should be reserved for passing and a few very rare occasions... If the car is set correctly there is no need to use it to get the thing to rotate. It's. Tricky maneuver that should be used sparingly.

 

[niky]

That's the problem with ABS. It turns trail-braking from a tricky technique to change a car's orientation into something relatively simple to do. Not quite idiot proof, though... as it also depends on brake bias. I've driven some ABS equipped cars that still like to hang tail if you trail-brake into a corner.

The thing about Turismo's braking and realism is: While the action of ABS is realistic, it is not specifically realistic for specific cars... which is the same problem as with TCS and ASM. It's a limitation of the game... nigglingly difficult to accurately model different implementations of ABS across hundreds upon hundreds of different cars.

And even if it were car-specific, the default 5-5 brake balance is not realistic for most cars, which is why tuning the brake bias by experimentation is a must.

Generally, the way ABS allows you to turn (or almost turn) under full braking is realistic... but only in a general sense.

Quite a helpful insight, thanks a lot Sir 👍.

May I, quite ignorantly if I may, ask where do you learn all this stuff? Maybe it's not late for me to learn all of this

Read a lot. Get on track, learn from guys who are much better than you (there are a lot of guys much better than me... :grin: ) and drive as many different kinds of cars as possible. Thankfully, my second job allows me the chance to drive dozens of different cars I would never have had the chance to drive in the first place.

I've had less track time over the past three or four years than I'd like, but that can't be helped.

There's no better teacher than experience... and I've had the unique opportunity to sample everything from the most primitive of ABS systems up to the most sophisticated and modern ones. Some ABS systems on modern cars are so good that they can actually stop you much quicker than threshold and cadence braking by allowing just enough lock-up to ensure wickedly short stopping distances.

 

[ucwepn]

Some cars have EBD (electronic brake force distrubution) or similar systems with different names, it shifts the braking force around to keep the car stable so yes in real life in some cars you could brake into corners.

 

[CSLACR]

Only one more thing I can think of left out, is with threshold braking, 3 different drivers will most likely measure 3 different stopping distances, hell, 1 driver with 3 runs can vary a decent amount, assuming they aren't a professional.
But with an ABS, especially with a good ABS, it's pretty much clockwork.

 

[niky]

Yeah, until the brakes start to fade...

Some cars have EBD (electronic brake force distrubution) or similar systems with different names, it shifts the braking force around to keep the car stable so yes in real life in some cars you could brake into corners.

EBD usually merely affects front-to-rear distribution... can't recall if it can do left-right, too on more sophisticated cars (at that point, it's bundled as part of DSC)... The thing that sucks about cars with EBD... unplugging the ABS for trackwork turns off the EBD... which can leave you with a crappy bias, depending on your set-up.

 

[Griffith500]

There is one issue with GT5's ABS, in that most real-world systems oscillate between locked and rolling states, either side of the optimal braking force for the given grip level. That is, the tyres actually lose grip temporarily before regaining it again.

GT5's ABS doesn't oscillate at all, and it is consistently on the physical limit of grip. Real ABS is based on feedback of rotational speeds of the tyres vs. the road speed (measured from the gearbox, usually) so, technically, the wheel needs to lock before the ABS can kick in. The limitation is usually in the mechanical actuation of the brakes - computers can easily monitor the situation at appropriate speeds, but the brake itself takes a finite time to actually move and alter the applied brake pressure. That means there will always be an (increasingly smaller) element of oscillation with ABS, and their associated systems e.g. DSC etc.

I was astounded the first time I tried LFS's ABS; the car skitted about as each wheel independently locked and unlocked at a rate I am used to experiencing in real cars, although it's probably a touch more unstable due to the way it affects the FFB.

 

[WhitePhoenix]

What I want to know if in real life braking hard without ABS is really that hard. I mean, do you really don't get any kind of signal? In GT5 with the G27 pedals the only signal of tyre lock-up is that tyre screeching sound that means "Oh dear, you're already skidding out of control". I don't know where I got the idea that in real life the brake pedal hardens as it gets close to lock up, is this true? Is it a matter of lack of feedback?

it is a matter of tuning by the manufacturer. For exemple (you can read it on the car description in GT5) the 300ZX (fairlady) had a pedel that won't transfer force to the driver.

And ABS rocks in general. I've read a couple of articles in Sport Compact Car about it, and on the dry, it tends to reduce braking distances, even in a straight line.

But what convinced me was a a track day (all-supra, at Cayuga, the track fartest to the entrance) where most guys had no ABS. It was rainy pretty hard and one of the racers (in a 640 hp mkiv, with ABS) was passing the stands flat out, everylap, hammering the brakes and entering the corner at crazy speeds. People were taking bets on how many laps he'd do without crashing. Turns out he raced all day without any trouble.

His answer was "You just let the ABS work"

 

[WhitePhoenix]

ABS in winter gets people killed. I'd feel safer jumping out of my car at 60km/hr than applying ABS brakes in an ice storm.

then you certainly don't know anything about driving!

ABS are better in almost any circumstances, no matter what you are testing for. Only some real primitive ABS could cause problems (like in '96 sunfire)

find anything serious about ABS being bad. They might be less fun, but always safer

 

[WhitePhoenix]

When your abs kicks in you will feel the pedal push back against your foot. You HAVE to stay in it and keep the pressure on the pedal or else abs is useless. It will also make an awful grinding noises as the actuator and brakes fight each other. abs will stop a car much faster and shorter in almost any occasion if used correctly. Even on ice. It's one of those things where you have to "trust" your cars computer over your own judgment. Driving a new GT-R is the same way. The car is so computer dominant that the car almost won't let u do something dumb. It makes slow drivers fast and fast drivers absolutely brilliant.

That's well said: many drivers don't do it well and say it lenghtens stopping distances. (here it's common, we have snow half the year)

to CSLACR: also, in canada, it's much easier to practice threshold braking



and sorry for 3 consecutives posts

 

[Crispy]

Who else finds the X2010 impossible to lock its tires under heavy braking? I tried this at Daytona. 290mph to 0mph braking as hard as I could. ABS to 0 and no lock. Mind you I think locking the tires in this car would make your pants brown, but still.

 

[Turkey :D]

In my 00' Acura TL, you can brake going into or through a corner if you feel like it. Slam the brake pedal down to start skidding, and the ABS will release the brakes enough so you can regain control. It's kind of a neat feature for real life driving noobs and for wet and icy conditions.

 

[Dragon_Dude]

In my 00' Acura TL, you can brake going into or through a corner if you feel like it. Slam the brake pedal down to start skidding, and the ABS will release the brakes enough so you can regain control. It's kind of a neat feature for real life driving noobs and for wet and icy conditions.

I can confirm this because I too have an Acura TL Type-S 2008 with +300HP (slightly mod'd including Power Slot Cryo slotted rotors w/Hawk HPS pads) and the ABS system on it is absolutely amazing!

 

[demonbug]

then you certainly don't know anything about driving!

ABS are better in almost any circumstances, no matter what you are testing for. Only some real primitive ABS could cause problems (like in '96 sunfire)

find anything serious about ABS being bad. They might be less fun, but always safer

Yes and no. ABS will result in increased stopping distance compared to well-executed threshold braking. However, ABS will stop consistently, whereas threshold braking depends entirely on the skill of the driver - it is very, very easy to either apply slightly too much pressure (resulting in skidding tires, longer braking distance, and lack of directional control) or too little pressure (resulting in longer braking distance). ABS will result in slightly longer braking distance than the most skilled drivers can manage, but will maintain directional control even under maximum effort braking.

That said, some older systems can in fact cause problems on ice, where the wheels are essentially constantly skidding. However, it usually isn't the ABS that causes problems, but the closely related traction control system. A lot of traction control systems use the brakes to transfer torque between wheels - it will apply the brake to a skidding wheel to transfer torque to a wheel that is not skidding. On ice, this can result in the traction control system basically locking up your wheels and preventing you from putting any power down. And, since applying power is one of the main ways of maintaining stability on ice, this can cause serious problems (and burn up your brakes). This is one reason why most cars have a button to disable traction control. The fact is, though, that this is really only an issue on bare ice - in snow, where the tires do in fact have some traction, it is almost always better to leave traction control on.

 

[Zer0]

The question is not whether you should drive with ABS or without it's whether it is realistic in the game where you can slam on the brakes and brake through mid corner when with ABS. Can you also do this in real life with a car that has ABS which I personally do not know having never used ABS in a racing situation in real life since I don't race in real life.

Jump at 2:44

 

[Turkey :D]

In my 00' Acura TL, you can brake going into or through a corner if you feel like it. Slam the brake pedal down to start skidding, and the ABS will release the brakes enough so you can regain control. It's kind of a neat feature for real life driving noobs and for wet and icy conditions.

But I forgot to mention:
From playing with a gamepad, the ABS system for each car feels rather similar. I'm sure the system in each car is very different in real life, and it would take a lot of extra effort to model the little nuances with each design... So, I'm convinced that the ABS in GT5 is likely an approximation of how the system should work in real life.

I recently bought a refurbished DFGT and haven't used it much, but I'll report back when I have.

 

[Crispy]

Wow, interesting video. I really liked the one at 4:00, if theres nobody around on a wide open road I think it would be quite awesome.

 

[CSLACR]

Yes and no. ABS will result in increased stopping distance compared to well-executed threshold braking.

I'd like to see a single road car without ABS that stops faster from 60 than a comparable car with ABS.

I know when the Viper first added ABS it's stopping distance in tests decreased by roughly 30 feet, if I recall correctly...

 

[peterjford]

Lots of good points made here. I think because of the lack of feedback through the pedal (limitations of the pedals/controller) and the lack of the "seat of the pants" feel, it would be almost impossible to master threshold braking in GT5. Even in real life it takes a little talent and lots of practice. I know that in one of my Jeeps I can do it about 50% of the time, not because I am good, but because I have driven this Jeep so much (over 100k miles). I could probably do it more often, but things are always changing, the weight of the Jeep, the tire pressure, the road surface, tire wear, etc. I just leave a lot of extra room to brake. Unless you are a very talented and experienced driver, ABS will always stop shorter and leave you with more control. I think about 5% of the drivers can outperform about 90% of ABS systems out there.

A little off topic, but there is one type of driving that I know of where you do not want ABS, that is when off-road. Sometimes you won't have exactly even tire pressures so the ABS could sense a difference in rotational speed and engage when you really don't want it to (steep downhill on loose shale, for example). Most of the guys I off-road with will pull the ABS fuse when on the trail. My Jeep is old enough (1991) to not have ABS. On the road, I have ABS in my daily driver, and I don't have enough talent or experience to say I could brake better without it.

Since there is no brake pedal feedback or seat of the pants feel, I believe that it is ok for me to have ABS 1 on cars that did not come with it. The Shelby Cobra, for example. Since the feedback for wheelspin seems better and modulating the throttle with pedals is easier, I do not use TCS in a vehicle that did not come with it (Shelby Cobra again). Maybe someday the feedback for the braking will match that for steering and acceleration and I can get it even more realistic and not use ABS.

As for real cars that can stop faster without ABS and not including cars with poor maintenance, I would say just I could stop my Jeep Cherokee faster than just about any Jeep Cherokee with ABS and an average driver. Also a lot of common/cheap ABS systems can be beaten by very talented/experienced drivers. For 95% of drivers with about 90% of modern ABS systems, the ABS will always stop faster.

 

[CSLACR]

As for real cars that can stop faster without ABS and not including cars with poor maintenance, I would say just I could stop my Jeep Cherokee faster than just about any Jeep Cherokee with ABS and an average driver. Also a lot of common/cheap ABS systems can be beaten by very talented/experienced drivers. For 95% of drivers with about 90% of modern ABS systems, the ABS will always stop faster.

No.
Threshold braking can be done with ABS. ABS only activates after a wheel locks.

Of course, this is not to detract from the fact that humans have tried and failed to match ABS on dozens of occasions. Of course, testing was done using high-performance cars.

The only time ABS could increase a stopping distance is the few cases where locked wheels would stop the cars faster.

But I know everybody likes to think their driving skill is better than any computer aid, so I know I'm arguing against a wall right now, deaf ears, as they say.

 

[iamsupernasty]

Jump at 2:44

That video is made by the company that manufactuers the ABS systems.. I wonder if they're a little biased?

In that video the non-abs car kept slamming on the brakes.. That's not how someone would brake with a non-abs car. The video is skewed on purpose.
---

In my race car I removed ABS. I can use the brakes to manipulate the car, in ways that I could never do with ABS. Also, in a rainy race situation, ABS can cause problems. I'm 100% positive that I don't want a computer taking the pressure off the brakes when it feels the wheels start to slip. I want total control of my car, and I want to be able to judge when the car is slipping.

 

[CSLACR]

In my race car I removed ABS. I can use the brakes to manipulate the car, in ways that I could never do with ABS. Also, in a rainy race situation, ABS can cause problems. I'm 100% positive that I don't want a computer taking the pressure off the brakes when it feels the wheels start to slip. I want total control of my car, and I want to be able to judge when the car is slipping.

But I know everybody likes to think their driving skill is better than any computer aid, so I know I'm arguing against a wall right now, deaf ears, as they say.

Told ya.

It's comparable to thinking you can pull a trigger on a semi-automatic AR-15 and fire bullets as quickly as an M-16.

 

[peterjford]

No.
Threshold braking can be done with ABS. ABS only activates after a wheel locks.

True, but the ABS system on the old Cherokees was really bad. If you can find one that hasn't had the ABS ripped out of it, I can out brake it.

Of course, this is not to detract from the fact that humans have tried and failed to match ABS on dozens of occasions. Of course, testing was done using high-performance cars.

True, but a good driver would be able to beat ABS on an old Escort or Accord.

But I know everybody likes to think their driving skill is better than any computer aid, so I know I'm arguing against a wall right now, deaf ears, as they say.

My driving skill is only better than a crappy Jeep computer aid, but I hear you.

The M-16A2 I used only had 3 round burst, but I still could not fire faster than it. I was more of a "well placed rounds" vs. "spray and pray" type anyway.

 

[iamjajo]

Typically the back end comes out on anyone that actually slams the brakes while turning as hard as you can in GT5, with ABS.

I personally don't go into corners with the brake floored, because it's slower.
I know you can, with most cars, but it's always slower, you should be peddling the brakes even with ABS on.

Unless you're racing where ABS is not allowed.
I don't believe ABS, TCS, or any aids should be allowed in any form of racing besides "showroom stock" types.
Let alone those 🤬🤬 paddle automatics.

I don't race in real life, but my wife's car has paddle shifters and they are very cool. You shouldn't believe everything you hear on TV (from an entertainment program).

 

[CSLACR]

True, but the ABS system on the old Cherokees was really bad. If you can find one that hasn't had the ABS ripped out of it, I can out brake it.



True, but a good driver would be able to beat ABS on an old Escort or Accord.



My driving skill is only better than a crappy Jeep computer aid, but I hear you.

The M-16A2 I used only had 3 round burst, but I still could not fire faster than it. I was more of a "well placed rounds" vs. "spray and pray" type anyway.

The only way to outbrake an ABS is if the ABS engages before wheel lock, otherwise threshold braking can be done in either.

But if the point is simply "crap ABS on older cars" then I'll concede it's possible to out brake them, I've driven some pretty crappy ABS equipped cars myself.
It's the generalized "I'm better than ABS, I don't want it at all" that's foolish.
Especially in panic situations.

I don't race in real life, but my wife's car has paddle shifters and they are very cool. You shouldn't believe everything you hear on TV (from an entertainment program).

Grand Prix?
It's not that I could never enjoy paddle shifters, it's that they are a nanny-aid. A cheater system. Designed for everyone that can't handle true manual.

It has no place in organized racing whatsoever, I do pardon the exception for F1's, due to the insane amount of shifting required.
Notice Kaz ran paddle shifters this year....
And they won.