Can we actually call GT5 a simulator?

[Raven_WET01]

I want to start out by saying I'm not bashing the physics engine. I'm not saying these cars aren't reacting to the road properly, I won't whine and complain about a ton of parts that I think should be in the game, and this isn't a rant about engine noises or standard cars. The vast majority of stock cars are near perfection when it comes to performance. The area of concern has to do with the upgrade system.

The chassis/suspension aspect has had me tearing my hair out since day one. There is no way to tell your vehicle's actual ride height or drop, and there's no way the spring rates are accurate. A 0mm drop with the full customization kit is still lower than stock, and unless you guys know something I don't, there's no defined standard drop when installing the kit. I did some research on spring rates and found that basic sport springs were firmer than is allowed with the premium suspension kit on quite a few vehicles. Again, we're dealing with a magical and undefined number over stock.

The second issue is the power achieved from upgrades. You can somehow get 40hp from bolting a cone filter onto a stock naturally aspirated engine, but a baby-eater turbo (that spools up to the same amount of boost no matter what) often struggles to produce 100hp? As mentioned in another thread, you just can't push realistic numbers no matter what you put into the car, as is most evident with the Toyota Supra. There are also the compatibility issues, but I won't get into that.

At this point, it's readily apparent that modifications are simply not accurate or well-simulated. And, since about 99.99% of racing is done with modified vehicles, very little of the driving performed in-game can be considered realistic. To prove it, I decided to run a little experiment on the Top Gear Test Track...

Stock TVR Tamora '02 with racing soft tires- 1:15.019
Ariel Atom V8 (as tested on Top Gear)- 1:15.1x

Are you telling me OEM-size racing soft tires make an otherwise stock Tamora (a car with 150 less hp and double the weight of the Atom V8) faster than the fastest car Top Gear has ever tested?

Realistically, does PD need to overhaul the upgrade system to ensure that this game can actually be called a simulator by all groups, or is a stock vehicle simulator good enough to earn the title of "The Real Driving Simulator?"

----------------------------------------
Note: TVR was new with no oil change, and the lap was started from a complete stop about 10ft before the line.

 

[RichiPuppy]

Did you start from a stop? Nevermind, can't read, good lap

 

[Jar31Lar]

Says he did... Also, to OP why didn't you use stock tires?

 

[diegorborges]

Says he did... Also, to OP why didn't you use stock tires?

Good question.

From what we all know, Racing Softs are far too grippy.

 

[shmogt]

Ride height you can physically see it raise or drop. Just set it to max look at the car than set it to lowest and check it out. Huge difference. The stiffness of springs you can't physically see but there's a huge difference when tuning depending on a smooth or bumpy track. Racing slicks are the best possible tires do you know which road tires the atom used? Also a video game there is no fear of crashing etc so you can really hammer it. Top gear even had an ep showing how gt2 he was like 5sec faster in the game than real life with the same car and tires. A more accurate test is take a Enzo or something stock and drive it around and see what there fastest time was. The video game should still be faster but it's a more accurate test. Only way for exact accuracy is to do the exact upgrades in real life and in the game. Something like a air filter built for a race car added may actually give that much HP who knows. Know one would ever buy a top of the line racing filter for a stock regular car lol. No matter what it's just a game. It's a lot more real than most of the competition.

 

[Exorcet]

Says he did... Also, to OP why didn't you use stock tires?

To prove a point.


I still think GT is a sim, it's just bad when it comes to tuning. To be honest, I'm not all that upset over the low accuracy of engine tuning. I have no problem "pretending" that my modified 800+ hp cars are mega budget factory backed race cars (though the budget seems to dry up when you get to the chassis and aero).

However, I do think expanding tuning options should be a focus for the next game. For GT5, I don't know, there is plenty in the physics department that needs fixing first.

Ride height you can physically see it raise or drop. Just set it to max look at the car than set it to lowest and check it out.

We know. The problem is you don't know how high you are ever. GT5's suspension settings only tell you the difference from some arbitrary start value. Sometimes you can't even get positive numbers. It makes no sense.

The stiffness of springs you can't physically see but there's a huge difference when tuning depending on a smooth or bumpy track.

I can pretty much run all the cars at max stiffness and not care. It's really weird that I can't make a car feel too stiff, especially since every car basically gets the same max spring rate. It should be very easy to make the suspension too stiff for light cars without downforce, yet I use the same numbers on them that I do for LMP cars, F1, NASCAR, etc.

Racing slicks are the best possible tires

They cannot make a slow car fast no matter how good they are. Tires are super complex, so it's no surprise that PD's model isn't hyper realistic, but making grip a simple constant is going too far.

Also a video game there is no fear of crashing etc so you can really hammer it.

I really think that is the lamest reasoning ever, and I lament that Clarkson ever gave the idea to the world through TV. You're not going to do well in a game if you crash into a wall. Sure it's not the same as dieing, but it's a good incentive not to go crazy. Not to mention over driving your car will end your race day as fast as going into a wall.

 

[MOTORTRENDmitch]

tires make the biggest difference ever, consider the following; The corvette z06 centenial edition, it has carbon fiber and way grippier tires then the normal Z06.. the car can lap Laguna seca 2 seconds faster then a 458 Italia.. The stock Zr1 cant do that.

 

[Exorcet]

tires make the biggest difference ever, consider the following; The corvette z06 centenial edition, it has carbon fiber and way grippier tires then the normal Z06.. the car can lap Laguna seca 2 seconds faster then a 458 Italia.. The stock Zr1 cant do that.

The ZR1 was faster than the 458, though it was also on different days which make a huge difference. On top of that the Z06's tires were designed with the car in mind, something you really can't do with generic GT tires. The Z06 you mentioned also has other modifications besides the tires.

Also

http://fastestlaps.com/articles/pimp_my_ride_the_right_way.html

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=5884099#post5884099

You can put the best racing slicks on a big clumsy sedan, it will still lose to a sports car. Without the suspension spreading the load between the tires, and getting the tires to their optimum slip angles and temperatures, you'll never get max grip from them.

 

[shmogt]

To prove a point.

I still think GT is a sim, it's just bad when it comes to tuning. To be honest, I'm not all that upset over the low accuracy of engine tuning. I have no problem "pretending" that my modified 800+ hp cars are mega budget factory backed race cars (though the budget seems to dry up when you get to the chassis and aero).

However, I do think expanding tuning options should be a focus for the next game. For GT5, I don't know, there is plenty in the physics department that needs fixing first.

We know. The problem is you don't know how high you are ever. GT5's suspension settings only tell you the difference from some arbitrary start value. Sometimes you can't even get positive numbers. It makes no sense.

I can pretty much run all the cars at max stiffness and not care. It's really weird that I can't make a car feel too stiff, especially since every car basically gets the same max spring rate. It should be very easy to make the suspension too stiff for light cars without downforce, yet I use the same numbers on them that I do for LMP cars, F1, NASCAR, etc.

They cannot make a slow car fast no matter how good they are. Tires are super complex, so it's no surprise that PD's model isn't hyper realistic, but making grip a simple constant is going too far.

I really think that is the lamest reasoning ever, and I lament that Clarkson ever gave the idea to the world through TV. You're not going to do well in a game if you crash into a wall. Sure it's not the same as dieing, but it's a good incentive not to go crazy. Not to mention over driving your car will end your race day as fast as going into a wall.

Well maybe you don't notice a difference in springs but it makes a big difference.

If I gave you a Ferrari 458 and said drive around this track 5 times in real life and a game, 100% of the time your game lap will be faster. Crashing and being killed is a huge reason to break too early in real life while a game the worst is you bump the wall and bounce off. Big deal you just got a slower lap or lose a race. You can't mentally push the car to the limit with the fear of death or crashing someone's car while in a game those problems don't exist. I didn't say drive stupid that will slow you down anywhere.

I already explained everything in the first post. Do an exact stock car and see what it got compared to the stock car top gear used. It's the only thing close to an accurate test. Using random car with super soft tires compared to a totally different car with probably sport hard tires is not accurate at all.

 

[nitrorocks]

Yeah! I have a ACR 2008 Viper with 928 HP! And I think they should make the tracks bumpy. I know that costs money for laser scanning but hey

 

[Exorcet]

If I gave you a Ferrari 458 and said drive around this track 5 times in real life and a game, 100% of the time your game lap will be faster.

Maybe. Though I'd think at least half of the time difference (which could go either way) would come from the sim being inaccurate. Either the virtual cars are too fast/slow, or the sim is missing something that's a big factor in the real car (like g forces, or steering feel).

Crashing and being killed is a huge reason to break too early in real life while a game the worst is you bump the wall and bounce off. Big deal you just got a slower lap or lose a race. You can't mentally push the car to the limit with the fear of death or crashing someone's car while in a game those problems don't exist.

You're not going to automatically fear for your life when driving around a track. You'll be careful, but you're not going to wonder about dieing every time you turn the steering wheel unless it's your very first time. The first time I got to do autocross, death was the last thing on my mind. It was just fun. I had a scary moment when I came close to the edge of the track (I was driving on a runway with a tracked marked with cones, the pavement was raised a little bit compared to the gravel on the sides of the runway), but all I needed to do was be a little more cautious, not sputter around under half throttle. Driving in reality actually felt more comfortable than doing it in a simulator. I was much more connected with the car.

I already explained everything in the first post. Do an exact stock car and see what it got compared to the stock car top gear used. It's the only thing close to an accurate test. Using random car with super soft tires compared to a totally different car with probably sport hard tires is not accurate at all.

The issue at hand is trying to figure out if modifications are realistic.

 

[tinram]

I want to start ... before the line.

First, you have to define what you think a simulator is.

General definition of "Simulator" would indicate that it is.

 

[mikeonthebike]

to the op it's common knowledge the racing tires have way too much grip in GT5, but it could have been designed that way for controller users to have a chance to stay on the track. I did a shuffle race last night in stock Ferrari California 08 at Nurburg with time change/weather change on whatever the stock tires are on that car and it started pouring rain and went totally dark and I ran a lap and a half of a 2 lap race in pitch black and pouring rain and stayed on the course. That's just something that is next to impossible with a controller. The most realism I have found in the GT5 is shuffle racing online.

As somebody else stated it would be best to take a STOCK car with STOCK TIRES no tuning at all and compare your time on top gear test track to that very same care they tested and compare. I am going to try the same thing I think.

I would totally call it a simulator. They call it the real driving simulator, they never claimed it was the complete racing simulator.

Yeah! I have a ACR 2008 Viper with 928 HP! And I think they should make the tracks bumpy. I know that costs money for laser scanning but hey

not sure if you are running a wheel or not but I feel bumps and grooves all over the tracks with my G27. force feedback is set at 9, simulation and no power steering assist in the wheel settings menu and I can really feel the tracks. It's something a controller just can't simulate.

 

[CSLACR]

I did some research on spring rates and found that basic sport springs were firmer than is allowed with the premium suspension kit on quite a few vehicles. Again, we're dealing with a magical and undefined number over stock.

That's just clearly not true at all. You must be thinking a lower number is stiffer, it is not.

to the op it's common knowledge the racing tires have way too much grip in GT5, but it could have been designed that way for controller users to have a chance to stay on the track. I did a shuffle race last night in stock Ferrari California 08 at Nurburg with time change/weather change on whatever the stock tires are on that car and it started pouring rain and went totally dark and I ran a lap and a half of a 2 lap race in pitch black and pouring rain and stayed on the course. That's just something that is next to impossible with a controller. The most realism I have found in the GT5 is shuffle racing online.

As somebody else stated it would be best to take a STOCK car with STOCK TIRES no tuning at all and compare your time on top gear test track to that very same care they tested and compare. I am going to try the same thing I think.

I would totally call it a simulator. They call it the real driving simulator, they never claimed it was the complete racing simulator.



not sure if you are running a wheel or not but I feel bumps and grooves all over the tracks with my G27. force feedback is set at 9, simulation and no power steering assist in the wheel settings menu and I can really feel the tracks. It's something a controller just can't simulate.

How would testing a STOCK car on STOCK tires tell anyone anything about how the modifications work?

 

[ChrisGT]

I would definitely call it a sim. It's realism really shines in stock cars on stock tires. There is nothing more fun than taking a stock street car on stock tires around the ring IMO. Very realistic! Things start getting ridiculous when you put racing softs on.

 

[urunatural]

I would, for 60 dollars is very close to the real thing, I can not even
start to imagine the cost of a real one like they use in F1

 

[shmogt]

How would testing a STOCK car on STOCK tires tell anyone anything about how the modifications work?

I said it originally and he said he did a test with a totally different car using racing soft and it's time was comparable to the stig from top gears time in the Atom. I said a test like that is useless for it to be comparable at all it has to be a exact stock car from dealership because that's how top gear test them and compare those times.

Modifications again would be the same thing. Take a civic in the game and instal a mid range turbo and get the HP and a lap time at a track. Take the same model civic in real life and do the same thing. See what the results are. That's the only true way to test something like this out.

Personally I think it did a pretty good job overall. It's a lot better than the majority of other racing games out there ie need for speed etc. In real life you can mod a corvette, supra, Skyline to over 1000hp if you want so mods in game if anything are worse than real life potential. Still tho it's a game. It has to fit all types of people, controllers, driving styles and there is only so far into the details before you start to lose the average man from being able to play. Ya a few changes could of been done, but there's already a million threads pointing out what could of been.

 

[mattythedog]

If you want a proper sim racer buy iRacing. GT5 has to cater for the masses which include people that just want a fun game. It cannot be a full sim because a lot of people would find it too difficult and they wouldn't play the game.

 

[mikeonthebike]

That's just clearly not true at all. You must be thinking a lower number is stiffer, it is not.

How would testing a STOCK car on STOCK tires tell anyone anything about how the modifications work?

schmogt answered it. because he did a different car with race soft tires and compared it to the real life ariel atom time. racing tires are just not realistic.

 

[daus26]

If you want a proper sim racer buy iRacing. GT5 has to cater for the masses which include people that just want a fun game. It cannot be a full sim because a lot of people would find it too difficult and they wouldn't play the game.

Isn't that already settled with SRF/Standard/Professional settings? If there is a way to make the game as advance as possible in terms of realism, there should be an option for it. It shouldn't force the player to use the physics to complete the game.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Yes you can call GT5 a simulator...

The real photo art studio simulator

 

[noisiaturismo]

No it isn't luckily, hopefully it stays like that because some people here want to over-simulate.

 

[mykem]

A good example of tire technology is when the new Corvette ZR-1 dropped over 6 seconds at Nordschleife- from 7min26sec to 7min19sec- by going from what is already a pretty good tire, Michelin Sport PS2 to an even better tire, Michelin Sport Cup. Mind you both are road tires with the new Sport Cup being closer to a semi-slick than a full thread road tires. Imagine how much faster the ZR1 with a Race Slick.

And let's see what tires normally come with stock Ariel Atom- that would be A Yokohama Advan AD048 which is a pretty good Sport tires. Lightly threaded but surely no match for the softest race tires.

A lower power car equipped with race tires can at times be faster than higher power car equipped with road tires. Look at times of FIA GT4 cars (GT4 cars are basically road cars with almost no aerodynamic assisted downforce). The Qualifying time for this year's race at Spa is 2min33sec by a Lotus Evora GT4- 1200kg with 355hp (almost the same power as the stock Evora S) and using race tires.

Compare that to the time of a stock Ferrari 458 (562hp) or a Corvette ZR-1 (630hp). Neither of those car can manage sub 2min40sec (2:40 for the 458 and 2:42 for the ZR-1). Yes, unlike the above comparison the Ariel Atom is lighter than the Tamora although unlike most road cars the Tamora tipped the scale lower than GT1-GT4 class cars.

Another thing to consider is that you can't compare real world time to that in a sim. Even in iRacing (even with the new tire physics of iRacing 2.0) the times recorded by most iRacers are always faster than the fastest lap time in the real world. And tracks in iRacing unlike the ones in GT5 are laser-scanned which means all the bumps and minor elevation are life-like. There's so many variables that contribute to the reason why when all things are equal, the times recorded in a game/simulator are always faster than that of real life. Adding another variable (the difference in tires) would make the disparity even more apparent.

Edit- one more thing. While there's no recorded time on the TGTT by Tamora, both the Tuscan and Sagaris (both in the same weight/power as the Tamora) recorded times in the 1min24sec. While a full 10 sec is improbable, a real world time that's sub 1:20 is possible (with a good driver of course) with these cars equipped with race slick.

 

[Bigbazz]

Yes we can call it a sim, not the most accurate sim, but none of the simulators are actually accurate (atleast not ones we can buy) to real life.

Problems you have.

1000 cars - Nigh on impossible to get those tuning options accurate with that many cars.
Racing Soft tyres - Why are you using racing soft tyres? Test it with comfort mediums. It is not news that the racing soft tyres have too much grip, and you would never in the real world even be able to aquire comparable tyres for that car.
Track - It isnt laser scanned, you haven't got real life weather or wind conditions.

 

[Grayfox]

Automatic does not act like an automatic.
When driving in the wet at low speeds it feels like you are driving on ice.

 

[xSNAKEx]

Yeah! I have a ACR 2008 Viper with 928 HP! And I think they should make the tracks bumpy. I know that costs money for laser scanning but hey

Yea I know most tacks on gt5 are like a showroom floor. Way too flat. Where are all the bumps...

 

[MTLclllutch]

you can make gt5 whatever you want it to be. Using racing softs you might as well save some space on your hd and go play nfs the run...

 

[Exorcet]

It cannot be a full sim because a lot of people would find it too difficult and they wouldn't play the game.

Prove it.

How is it getting more realistic going to make it too difficult? Why would SRF cease to exist?

A lower power car equipped with race tires can at times be faster than higher power car equipped with road tires. Look at times of FIA GT4 cars (GT4 cars are basically road cars with almost no aerodynamic assisted downforce). The Qualifying time for this year's race at Spa is 2min33sec by a Lotus Evora GT4- 1200kg with 355hp (almost the same power as the stock Evora S) and using race tires.

Compare that to the time of a stock Ferrari 458 (562hp) or a Corvette ZR-1 (630hp). Neither of those car can manage sub 2min40sec (2:40 for the 458 and 2:42 for the ZR-1). Yes, unlike the above comparison the Ariel Atom is lighter than the Tamora although unlike most road cars the Tamora tipped the scale lower than GT1-GT4 class cars.

Consider that the GT4 cars are on the track lapping like mad to get the best time possible. They also have adjustable suspension which probably allows them to get more from the tires than a road car could. The road cars were there for magazine test. It might be possible to get a little more out of them.

In GT, when you throw race tires on a car, it basically becomes a race car. There is no need to optimize suspension to get max grip.

There's so many variables that contribute to the reason why when all things are equal, the times recorded in a game/simulator are always faster than that of real life.

I don't think has been proven yet.

While a full 10 sec is improbable

That's the problem.

1000 cars - Nigh on impossible to get those tuning options accurate with that many cars.

Yes, they can't go model every aftermarket part for every car. But there is no reason to do that in the first place.

What they need is a realistic tuning model. With that, the game could have every car ever made and they would have no trouble making the tuning realistic for every single one of them.

Racing Soft tyres - Why are you using racing soft tyres? Test it with comfort mediums. It is not news that the racing soft tyres have too much grip, and you would never in the real world even be able to aquire comparable tyres for that car.

Everyone has completely missed the point. The point was, RS tires are crazy in GT5 because they (like all tires) supply magic grip just by being put on the car.

 

[Vince_Fiero]

GT5 is a simulator, why it is:

Oxford dictionary:

a piece of equipment that artificially creates a particular set of conditions in order to train sb to deal with a situation that they may experience in reality

If it is the best simulator or a perfect simulator is something else.

I find it a fun simulator, good enough for what I want to do with it.

 

[Energizerrr]

Yes, why not?