Can we actually call GT5 a simulator?

[Tenacious D]

Wut? I've been adjusting my brakes in GT5 since November 24th, 2010. That's one-year today, BTW.

Well, that's a kick in the head. Maybe I just ignored it because back then, ABS 1 was what everyone was jumping to, and you didn't need to play with brake balance.

But as OK8 says, we learned that even with what should have been the bare minimum of ABS, you could basically hit your entry angle, aim for your apex, and stomp the brakes. Even with Brake Balance set low front and back, you don't have those other assists helping out to keep your car stable and the nose pointed right. Maybe you're just so excellent, you can't help but corner perfectly every time, so you can't notice it.

 

[JDMKING13]

Well, that's a kick in the head. Maybe I just ignored it because back then, ABS 1 was what everyone was jumping to, and you didn't need to play with brake balance.

But as OK8 says, we learned that even with what should have been the bare minimum of ABS, you could basically hit your entry angle, aim for your apex, and stomp the brakes. Even with Brake Balance set low front and back, you don't have those other assists helping out to keep your car stable and the nose pointed right. Maybe you're just so excellent, you can't help but corner perfectly every time, so you can't notice it.

I have no clue, how he can't notice the huge difference, If you drive on SSR5 the long straight before the tunnel braking zone is very tricky. With ABS on 1 you can just slam on the brakes and hit the turn very easily with no balancing skill. With ABS off the first thing you will notice is that you have to have good braking skill or the rear end will kick out. High speed braking is difficult. I agree with OK8.

 

[CSLACR]

I've no idea what this thread was originally about but saw a good fight about ABS so I decided to pitch in.

That's always a good start.

If you're aiming for a realistic racing experience you immediately lose half of it when driving with abs 1. After you move that dial from 0 to 1 braking as a whole becomes a simple task of flooring the pedal whenever you want to slow down. Technically there's no point in ever being on less than full brakes. When braking for corners just look for your braking point and stomp your foot on the pedal. Even if you brake a bit later you can still save it by just holding it down and turning in.

Already discussed this, "stomping the brake pedal" with ABS at 1 is for fools that aren't driving as fast as they could.

I agree with JDMKing and others who say ABS does more than just stop you locking up the brakes. I did a test with a stock yellowbird sports hard tyres and wet track, very hard conditions and turning in with full brakes was actually easier than turning in with no power at all. When the ABS is active the car as a whole becomes much more stable. I urge anyone who says ABS doesn't apply other aids to try this.

You might be surprised to hear (again you haven't read anything in this thread) that I've driven with ABS off.

As a result I race cars with no abs always even if they have ABS in real life, given that I can adjust the brake balance towards the front (which you can't do in one make rooms and shuffle rooms. In those rooms I use ABS and every time I'm baffled at how monotonous braking feels with it).

Ok, so like everyone else, you adjust the brake balance to make braking easier without ABS. 👍 Completely defies everything about the "realism" aspect, but whatever floats your boat.

And to people who say the brakes have no feel I've no idea how you can say that. Coming out of Schwedenkreuz on the Nordschleife I immediately start pumping the brake pedal, constantly going over the limit and then coming back again to find optimal brake performance. When I'm over the limit I see the cockpit start to shake I hear the tyres screaming I see the rate at which the revs drop and I feel the back squirming with FFB. If the fronts lock you immediately feel the wheel go soft and you lose all turning grip.

When I locked the front wheels, I could still spin the car out.
So much for "losing all turning grip".

It's not a matter of finding the limit, marking it with a ruler and then moving your foot to 1mm from that limit and holding it steady there, you have to work around the limit while still keeping the car steady (and downshifting at the same time, very stimulating). You don't need a 500€ pedalset made from materials used on the international space station, just good resistance from the pedal so you can make slight adjustments easily (for which my G25 pedals are good enough, and so are cheaper pedals if you just increase the resistance somehow (https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=164208 for example).

I have bungees.
That doesn't change that ABS is ABS and only ABS in the game. But you haven't read any posts yet.

It engages the second you touch the brakes. If you could distinctly feel when the ABS is restricting brake power to stop the wheels from locking (see LFS's ABS) I'd understand what you mean but this is not the case. Having ABS at 1 completely changes the way cars behave under braking.

No it doesn't.

What?

He said "you can upshift exiting corners to keep wheels from spinning". I said, "you can not downshift on corner entry to keep the wheels from spinning".
You aren't forced to downshift, ABS is just like TCS, they work exactly the same, one on deceleration, one on acceleration.

Do real cars have 50% 50% brake balance? No they do not. For some reason PD decided to have 5/5 as a default value but that means nothing. You can still change it in rooms that prohibit tuning.

You assume BB at stock 5/5 is "50-50". But why would I assume that? It's stock on every car in the game, I have to assume it's a generic "default" (duh) and is supposed to represent every car at stock.
Of course you want to make driving without ABS easier, so you change the BB on every car you drive, whenever possible.

In prologue you could turn with locked wheels but in the current version of GT5 it's hard for me to see how you can make such a claim. Besides 7/4 is still enough to make the rears lock very easily which makes braking in a racing situation very difficult.

I know, I should have changed every car to 1/0 so it was almost impossible to lock the wheels, that's what the "good drivers" do.
A homemade ABS for those wanting to drive without ABS. As long as I don't think 5/5 is PD's way of changing every car on the planet's braking balance at what's claimed "stock" (why would they?) It sounds like defying the purpose of driving without ABS.

It's not my wet dream to see you come back saying "Oh you were so right I'm never using ABS again. Praise the OK8!" in fact I don't even care when people use it since I rarely feel I've lost to someone because he had ABS and I didn't. I just wanted to point out that if you want to make the experience as realistic as possible you're missing quite a bit by using ABS.

That may be, but I don't see the massive benefit, especially since a lot of the cars people do it to come with ABS that's better then a human foot for racing anyway.

Also I agree with JDMKing about ABS teaching racers bad habits when braking. Many people I've discussed with have said they've improved their braking habits and their driving in general after learning to drive without ABS since it just doesn't allow for mistakes like having ABS does, which in itself is a testament on how it is and aid just as TC ASM and SFR.

An aid? Yes. Just like SRF?
I'm not even trying to say some people can't learn from driving without it, but it's not this be-all-end-all aid that people have been saying. It only works under braking, and only when the wheels start to lock, it keeps the wheels rotating, it is therefore an ABS, and only an ABS.

Well, that's a kick in the head. Maybe I just ignored it because back then, ABS 1 was what everyone was jumping to, and you didn't need to play with brake balance.

That shows how little you put into braking with ABS on. You never even considered a slight change could help? Yet without ABS you changed BB and then call it different?
Pretty far from scientific, pretty far from it.

But as OK8 says, we learned that even with what should have been the bare minimum of ABS, you could basically hit your entry angle, aim for your apex, and stomp the brakes. Even with Brake Balance set low front and back, you don't have those other assists helping out to keep your car stable and the nose pointed right. Maybe you're just so excellent, you can't help but corner perfectly every time, so you can't notice it.

Then why do I notice it with those other aids turned on?
ASM is impossible to miss. TCS is impossible to miss. SRF is impossible to miss. The only aid in GT5 that could try to slip by is AS, but I know that's not on, because - AS slows me down
Actually, TCS, ASM, and AS all slow me down, why would I expect ABS to be any different?

I have no clue, how he can't notice the huge difference, If you drive on SSR5 the long straight before the tunnel braking zone is very tricky. With ABS on 1 you can just slam on the brakes and hit the turn very easily with no balancing skill. With ABS off the first thing you will notice is that you have to have good braking skill or the rear end will kick out. High speed braking is difficult. I agree with OK8.

Good turn to mention, I couldn't tell you how many times I crashed from spinning or under-steering braking into that corner when I hot lapped that track. Yes, with ABS on, but that again, comes down to how you drive with it.
Every single one of you has admitted to driving like a student driver with ABS, and well, yes, you kind of can, but you can't compare ABS with crappy driving to no-ABS with proper driving and make a reasonable conclusion as to the differences between the two.💡


All of this points even more to my original claim, not one of you has really tried ABS with pedal modulation, you just dove in corners and at least some didn't even know they could adjust BB.
Now all the sudden you switched to ABS off, and had to learn how to brake into corners properly. You also felt a need to change BB to make it easier.

If you're telling me it's not unrealistically and annoyingly difficult to "feel" the braking, try not to combine it with altered settings to make it so much easier. Like I said, it defies the point.

Lastly, keep in mind I haven't said "ABS can't make the game feel better", I said these things:
Changing your BB to make it easier tells me something must not be right, otherwise, why would everyone that drives without ABS need to make it easier by lowering brake pressure?
Cars turn (via spinning) with locked front wheels.
ABS does not magically turn other aids on.

 

[Zoom!Zoom!]

Adjusting the brake bias is a lot more important with abs off than with abs on except the X1. You can't turn the abs off in the X1 and it makes no difference if the brake bias is set to F:10 B:0 ; F:5 B:5 or F=0 B=10.

With ABS off brake bias needs to be adjusted depending on the car and how much resistance your gaming brake pedal provides. With CSP (load cell) or G27 pedals with nixim mod you can set the brake bias overall a little higher than someone who using a pot. With pots you need to set the brake bias pretty low since it's too easy to lock up the brakes with ABS off. Even CSP brake pedal doesn't have as much resistance as a real car without ABS. The force required to lock up my brakes on my real Civic would no doubt damage the load cell in my CSP or G27 pedals.

Street cars without ABS brakes are not sensitive as cars with ABS. Thus my Civic without ABS requires more pressure to brake than my Accord with ABS.

 

[CSLACR]

Adjusting the brake bias is a lot more important with abs off than with abs on except the X1. You can't turn the abs off in the X1 and it makes no difference if the brake bias is set to F:10 B:0 ; F:5 B:5 or F=0 B=10.

With ABS off brake bias needs to be adjusted depending on the car and how much resistance your gaming brake pedal provides. With CSP (load cell) or G27 pedals with nixim mod you can set the brake bias overall a little higher than someone who using a pot. With pots you need to set the brake bias pretty low since it's too easy to lock up the brakes with ABS off. Even CSP brake pedal doesn't have as much resistance as a real car without ABS. The force required to lock up my brakes on my real Civic would no doubt damage the load cell in my CSP or G27 pedals.

Street cars without ABS brakes are not sensitive as cars with ABS. Thus my Civic without ABS requires more pressure to brake than my Accord with ABS.

I don't think real ABS requires any more brake pressure then without, or vice verse. Perhaps a link to something for this? (besides comparing 2 different cars)

As for different pedals, resistance doesn't change what BB settings you can run, why would it? It doesn't change what TCS levels we can run, now does it?
The issue with driving without ABS in video games is more on feel. Unlike TCS, when you screw up under braking without ABS, you're likely to crash and ruin your entire race, accidentally spinning the tires just burns some rubber off.
But with a good FFB pedal set, it would be much different, something other than watching a car on screen and listening for the overly quiet squeal the tires in GT5 give off. So basically, the problem I have with no-ABS in GT5 stems to it being a pain in the ass to learn, without ever really having full control to properly push the limit, like I do in a real car.

 

[Zoom!Zoom!]

I don't think real ABS requires any more brake pressure then without, or vice verse. Perhaps a link to something for this? (besides comparing 2 different cars)

As for different pedals, resistance doesn't change what BB settings you can run, why would it? It doesn't change what TCS levels we can run, now does it?
The issue with driving without ABS in video games is more on feel. Unlike TCS, when you screw up under braking without ABS, you're likely to crash and ruin your entire race, accidentally spinning the tires just burns some rubber off.
But with a good FFB pedal set, it would be much different, something other than watching a car on screen and listening for the overly quiet squeal the tires in GT5 give off. So basically, the problem I have with no-ABS in GT5 stems to it being a pain in the ass to learn, without ever really having full control to properly push the limit, like I do in a real car.

I have a Mustang and Civic without ABS and Accord with ABS and I can tell you Accord brake pedal is a lot more touchy than my other cars.

As for different pedals, resistance doesn't change what BB settings you can run, why would it? It doesn't change what TCS levels we can run, now does it?
The issue with driving without ABS in video games is more on feel. Unlike TCS, when you screw up under braking without ABS, you're likely to crash and ruin your entire race, accidentally spinning the tires just burns some rubber off.
But with a good FFB pedal set, it would be much different, something other than watching a car on screen and listening for the overly quiet squeal the tires in GT5 give off. So basically, the problem I have with no-ABS in GT5 stems to it being a pain in the ass to learn, without ever really having full control to properly push the limit, like I do in a real car.

Changing brake bias overall total is a substitute for the game having no way to change pedal sensitivity (like Forza 3/4 for example).
The main point for me to have abs off is it's more challenging and help make up some of the challenge that's is in real racing but not in sims. For example G-forces. In real racing your risking your life and this can't be simulated. With abs on in sims it removes even more "risk vs reward" from racing.

 

[JDMKING13]

I have a Mustang and Civic without ABS and Accord with ABS and I can tell you Accord brake pedal is a lot more touchy than my other cars.
Changing brake bias overall total is a substitute for the game having no way to change pedal sensitivity (like Forza 3/4 for example).
The main point for me to have abs off is it's more challenging and help make up some of the challenge that's is in real racing but not in sims. For example G-forces.

He just doesn't get it, all he says is we are making the BB lower to make it easy. When in fact ABS off 2-0 brake balance is way HARDER than ABS1 2-0 BB. In the end ABS off makes GT5 a lot more realistic.

 

[CSLACR]

I have a Mustang and Civic without ABS and Accord with ABS and I can tell you Accord brake pedal is a lot more touchy than my other cars.
Changing brake bias overall total is a substitute for the game having no way to change pedal sensitivity (like Forza 3/4 for example).
The main point for me to have abs off is it's more challenging and help make up some of the challenge that's is in real racing but not in sims. For example G-forces. In real racing your risking your life and this can't be simulated. With abs on in sims it removes even more "risk vs reward" from racing.

Wow, lots of cars you own there.
In any case, your still making assumptions on how ABS works, based off driving 3 different cars. (Of which you haven't disclosed any information about the braking systems each has, or even what year model each one is)
Pretty far from scientific. Hearsay doesn't go far around here, sorry.

I drove multiple cars with and without ABS, and every single one needed more or less pedal pressure then others. Not to mention the variance monster that is "wear and tear" coupled with the current state of each braking system. But since I know how ABS works, I find it very hard to believe it affects pedal pressure without proof.

He just doesn't get it, all he says is we are making the BB lower to make it easy. When in fact ABS off 2-0 brake balance is way HARDER than ABS1 2-0 BB. In the end ABS off makes GT5 a lot more realistic.

Why would anyone run 2-0 BB with ABS on 1?
You do change the brake balance, and you do it to make it easier to drive without ABS.

How is it realistic to turn ABS off on cars that come equipped with it?

Harder is not synonymous with "realistic". It'd be even harder if you drove 1,000 HP cars on CH tires, but that doesn't make it realistic, not one bit.

 

[peter_vod69]

Meh, I'll still abide by my same old rules as always. If the car has ABS in real life, I'll use it, if not, I won't. Same as H-Pattern shifting with clutch vs paddles.

 

[JDMKING13]

Meh, I'll still abide by my same old rules as always. If the car has ABS in real life, I'll use it, if not, I won't. Same as H-Pattern shifting with clutch vs paddles.

Peter I feel the same way man even with the driving style. I have a league where we use real life parts for our upgrade system in GT5, but something with ABS just makes the car to stable and very dull during braking. With it off and BB set low the cars really come alive In my opinion. I was just driving a BMW M3 04 and a Supra RZ and the braking balance of the M3 is superior( test this out yourself Madrid short) compared to the Supra. With ABS1 I never notice it, basically I hit the brake hard and turn in.

 

[CSLACR]

Meh, I'll still abide by my same old rules as always. If the car has ABS in real life, I'll use it, if not, I won't. Same as H-Pattern shifting with clutch vs paddles.

That makes more sense.
Of course most of these things only "work" for the lesser 5-10% that have full-blown shifters, etc. (I have the most common wheel, no proper shifter or clutch)

Peter I feel the same way man even with the driving style. I have a league where we use real life parts for our upgrade system in GT5, but something with ABS just makes the car to stable and very dull during braking. With it off and BB set low the cars really come alive In my opinion. I was just driving a BMW M3 04 and a Supra RZ and the braking balance of the M3 is superior( test this out yourself Madrid short) compared to the Supra. With ABS1 I never notice it, basically I hit the hard and turn in.

What do you mean by "the braking balance"?

 

[peter_vod69]

That makes more sense.
Of course most of these things only "work" for the lesser 5-10% that have full-blown shifters, etc. (I have the most common wheel, no proper shifter or clutch)

G25 with the Nixim brake and clutch mods here

What do you mean by "the braking balance"?

I'd be guessing he means how stable the car is, or its general behaviour under hard braking (does it yaw, does the rear want to step out, does it want to understeer? etc).

 

[JDMKING13]

G25 with the Nixim brake and clutch mods here



I'd be guessing he means how stable the car is, or its general behaviour under hard braking (does it yaw, does the rear want to step out, does it want to understeer? etc).

Yup! 👍 I'm not knocking anybody driving style while CSLACR saying we are making it easy by making the BB lower is a joke to me. It's to give a more realistic feeling, just as he puts ABS 1 because it gives a better experience for him. You don't see me saying why not leave it on 5. Peter I'm with you I wish I could leave ABS1 on and the cars behave just as they do with it off minus the lockup ( which rarely happens with BB set low) If you ever have free time go to Madrid short BMW M3 04(standard version) and Supra RZ. Set the BMW M3 BB 2-0 and the Supra 3-1 and enjoy. 👍

 

[Zoom!Zoom!]

But since I know how ABS works, I find it very hard to believe it affects pedal pressure without proof.

It has nothing to do how ABS work but how power brakes are set. For safety reasons street cars without ABS requires more pressure by design in order to make it harder to lock up the brakes. (In GT5 you lower the brake bias) Since ABS keep the brakes from locking up brake pedal can be set to be more sensitive (stronger power brakes).

 

[jtv90069]

With ABS on it does make any car in GT5 almost unnaturally stable (under braking), that i think we can all agree on. It does not however add SRF, ASM, and most definitely not TCS.

Brakes all have one thing in common, they are dependent on tyre grip. Using say comfort hard the brakes should lock much earlier than when using sport soft. Lowering the brake balance on lesser tyres will give you more pedal to play with before locking therefore giving more control.

 

[JDMKING13]

With ABS on it does make any car in GT5 almost unnaturally stable (under braking), that i think we can all agree on. It does not however add SRF, ASM, and most definitely not TCS.

Brakes all have one thing in common, they are dependent on tyre grip. Using say comfort hard the brakes should lock much earlier than when using sport soft. Lowering the brake balance on lesser tyres will give you more pedal to play with before locking therefore giving more control.

I agree with you man I know none of those assist are on but under hard braking it feels like ASM is on. That's all I'm saying.

 

[CSLACR]

Yup! 👍 I'm not knocking anybody driving style while CSLACR saying we are making it easy by making the BB lower is a joke to me. It's to give a more realistic feeling, just as he puts ABS 1 because it gives a better experience for him. You don't see me saying why not leave it on 5. Peter I'm with you I wish I could leave ABS1 on and the cars behave just as they do with it off minus the lockup ( which rarely happens with BB set low) If you ever have free time go to Madrid short BMW M3 04(standard version) and Supra RZ. Set the BMW M3 BB 2-0 and the Supra 3-1 and enjoy. 👍

So I decided to try ABS for the third time tonight. '97 Castrol Tom's Supra, stock, on R1's.
I picked a SuperGT car and Suzuka because I very recently ran a lot of laps there in SuperGT cars, which is the best way to compare.

First off, at 5/5, it was much harder, yes. With locked front wheels, it still somehow managed grip to spin itself, go figure.

At 3/1, it was borderline easy. Turned a 1:57.8 on Suzuka within 15 laps in my lounge. I could run in the 56's without ABS in a matter of an hour or less, easily.

You know what the difference is between ABS on or off? On one, the wheels stay locked when you lock them, on the other, the anti-lock system keeps them from locking.
How anyone could even consider there's any difference outside of wheel lock is beyond me.

Perhaps we should meet in a lobby sometime so I can show you?

 

[jtv90069]

So I decided to try ABS for the third time tonight. '97 Castrol Tom's Supra, stock, on R1's.
I picked a SuperGT car and Suzuka because I very recently ran a lot of laps there in SuperGT cars, which is the best way to compare.

First off, at 5/5, it was much harder, yes. With locked front wheels, it still somehow managed grip to spin itself, go figure.

At 3/1, it was borderline easy. Turned a 1:57.8 on Suzuka within 15 laps in my lounge. I could run in the 56's without ABS in a matter of an hour or less, easily.

You know what the difference is between ABS on or off? On one, the wheels stay locked when you lock them, on the other, the anti-lock system keeps them from locking.
How anyone could even consider there's any difference outside of wheel lock is still beyond me.

Try the Lancia Stratos Rally car with and without ABS. There is a huge difference between the two in terms of stability.

 

[JDMKING13]

Try the Lancia Stratos Rally car with and without ABS. There is a huge difference between the two in terms of stability.

Exactly he gets a Super GT with tons of down force and body work to rip the track which is cool, but why not post your lap time with ABS1 on that is the point of this argument. I also think that brake balance is very low for a Super GT car something like 5-2 6-3 would be better in my opinion. CSLACR I would love to watch you in my racing Lounge ripping up the track with ABS1 then ABS0 with a stock S2000 premium. Your Suzuka time is very impressive. 👍

 

[CSLACR]

Exactly he gets a Super GT with tons of down force and body work to rip the track which is cool, but why not post your lap time with ABS1 on that is the point of this argument. I also think that brake balance is very low for a Super GT car something like 5-2 6-3 would be better in my opinion. CSLACR I would love to watch you in my racing Lounge ripping up the track with ABS1 then ABS0 with a stock S2000 premium. Your Suzuka time is very impressive. 👍

First off, I used the Super GT because that's something I'm very familiar with right this second, and that track, much easier and more reliable to compare that way, rather then hop into something I haven't driven at all, or in a while to test out differences between an aid like ABS. So consider the car/track choice, "in the name of science".

I didn't post the non-ABS time because I don't actually have one in that car at stock specs yet.
My best guesstimate is low 56's, I ran 56.808 in a slightly slower (at spec) Denso Sard SC430 last week. (56.2 on low fuel )

I actually quite liked the 3-1 balance for without ABS on the car, I could brake exactly the same as I do with ABS on.

Fire me an FR and surely we can get together in a lobby at some point.
I should have one or two spots left on my friends list, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[JDMKING13]

First off, I used the Super GT because that's something I'm very familiar with right this second, and that track, much easier and more reliable to compare that way, rather then hop into something I haven't driven at all, or in a while to test out differences between an aid like ABS. So consider the car/track choice, "in the name of science".

I didn't post the non-ABS time because I don't actually have one in that car at stock specs yet.
My best guesstimate is low 56's, I ran 56.808 in a slightly slower (at spec) Denso Sard SC430 last week. (56.2 on low fuel )

I actually quite liked the 3-1 balance for without ABS on the car, I could brake exactly the same as I do with ABS on.

Fire me an FR and surely we can get together in a lobby at some point.
I should have one or two spots left on my friends list, if I'm not mistaken.

No doubt man I sure will. 👍

@ jvt to make up for the lack of brake upgrade in GT5 I use the BB In my league. For example as a stock setting BB for a Honda S2000 (Premium) is 1-0 in my league. Same as a 89 Mazda Miata , however still the S2000 brakes are better. So you start to add power to your S2000 but notice you need more stopping power to get better use of your new tires Potenza RE-11. (S1) So you by the Spoon brake kit now you have the ability to change your brakes to 2-0 and it makes a huge difference. I wish we had brake upgrade in GT5 but this will do for now.

 

[OK8]

Ok, so like everyone else, you adjust the brake balance to make braking easier without ABS. 👍 Completely defies everything about the "realism" aspect, but whatever floats your boat.

You assume BB at stock 5/5 is "50-50". But why would I assume that? It's stock on every car in the game, I have to assume it's a generic "default" (duh) and is supposed to represent every car at stock.
Of course you want to make driving without ABS easier, so you change the BB on every car you drive, whenever possible.

I'm currently hideously hungover but even if I wasn't I'd be baffled at what you're talking about. Have you actually pressed the brakes in a real car without abs? The rears don't lock up immediately as they do with 5/5 because 5/5 is 50% 50%. In real cars atleast 70% of the braking force goes to the front wheels which is what me and everyone else adjusting brake balance wants to archieve, not make the car have less brake pressure and then just floor the pedal without the wheels ever locking (this is what I did in LFS when I was starting, I did not yet have the ability to move my feet while braking) and coming here and patronizing everyone who does the same with abs 1.

What exactly would be the point on PD's part to set the default value 5/5 and not have that represent 50% 50%? How many %s would one point then represent?

An aid? Yes. Just like SRF?
I'm not even trying to say some people can't learn from driving without it, but it's not this be-all-end-all aid that people have been saying. It only works under braking, and only when the wheels start to lock, it keeps the wheels rotating, it is therefore an ABS, and only an ABS.

Show me proof of this. With ABS 1 the wheels don't even get close to locking the whole braking physics are different. It doesn't engage and disengage there isn't a light flashing to tell you when ABS is restricting brake power to keep the wheels from not locking it's completely different.

Also my wet track Yellowbird -test still stands (no matter what car it is, Yellowbird is just a good example since it's quite unstable all the time), under full brakes with ABS 1 the car becomes much more stable. TC or ASM or whatever (don't know, never used them) takes the realism out of accelerating and ABS takes the realism out of braking.

In the middle of writing this paragraf I threw up. Even though we're on the opposite sides of this debate have some sympathy .

All of this points even more to my original claim, not one of you has really tried ABS with pedal modulation,

Why would you use pedal modulation when the wheels don't lock no matter what you do? All you're doing is making your braking less efficient and slowing your laptime.

Cars turn (via spinning) with locked front wheels.

I assume the rears are the ones that are locked and that spins the car. Try 4/1, that's what I use and I think it's very good.


More than anything I hope PD allows us to set ABS prohibited in rooms. There are plenty of no ABS rooms but it's boring to have to check everyone to see if they're using it or not. With everyone racing with ABS 0 braking battles become much more intense and you can pull brilliant outbraking maneuvres.

 

[Tenacious D]

How is it realistic to turn ABS off on cars that come equipped with it?

This is most likely Polyphony's answer to brake upgrades, as all brakes are like racing brakes and are adjustable. Anyway, since both sides seem to have made up their minds on this issue, I'll bow myself out.

I have to admit that I had a good chuckle from OK8's misfortune. Makes me glad I'm not into intoxicants. Keep in mind that sympathy on the nets is a premium commodity.

 

[JDMKING13]

This is most likely Polyphony's answer to brake upgrades, as all brakes are like racing brakes and are adjustable. Anyway, since both sides seem to have made up their minds on this issue, I'll bow myself out.

I have to admit that I had a good chuckle from OK8's misfortune. Makes me glad I'm not into intoxicants. Keep in mind that sympathy on the nets is a premium commodity.

@ jvt to make up for the lack of brake upgrade in GT5 I use the BB In my league. For example as a stock setting BB for a Honda S2000 (Premium) is 1-0 in my league. Same as a 89 Mazda Miata , however still the S2000 brakes are better. So you start to add power to your S2000 but notice you need more stopping power to get better use of your new tires Potenza RE-11. (S1) So you by the Spoon brake kit now you have the ability to change your brakes to 2-0 and it makes a huge difference. I wish we had brake upgrade in GT5 but this will do for now.

I agree with you.

I'm currently hideously hungover but even if I wasn't I'd be baffled at what you're talking about. Have you actually pressed the brakes in a real car without abs? The rears don't lock up immediately as they do with 5/5 because 5/5 is 50% 50%. In real cars atleast 70% of the braking force goes to the front wheels which is what me and everyone else adjusting brake balance wants to archieve, not make the car have less brake pressure and then just floor the pedal without the wheels ever locking (this is what I did in LFS when I was starting, I did not yet have the ability to move my feet while braking) and coming here and patronizing everyone who does the same with abs 1.

What exactly would be the point on PD's part to set the default value 5/5 and not have that represent 50% 50%? How many %s would one point then represent?


Show me proof of this. With ABS 1 the wheels don't even get close to locking the whole braking physics are different. It doesn't engage and disengage there isn't a light flashing to tell you when ABS is restricting brake power to keep the wheels from not locking it's completely different.

Also my wet track Yellowbird -test still stands (no matter what car it is, Yellowbird is just a good example since it's quite unstable all the time), under full brakes with ABS 1 the car becomes much more stable. TC or ASM or whatever (don't know, never used them) takes the realism out of accelerating and ABS takes the realism out of braking.

In the middle of writing this paragraf I threw up. Even though we're on the opposite sides of this debate have some sympathy .





Why would you use pedal modulation when the wheels don't lock no matter what you do? All you're doing is making your braking less efficient and slowing your laptime.


I assume the rears are the ones that are locked and that spins the car. Try 4/1, that's what I use and I think it's very good.


More than anything I hope PD allows us to set ABS prohibited in rooms. There are plenty of no ABS rooms but it's boring to have to check everyone to see if they're using it or not. With everyone racing with ABS 0 braking battles become much more intense and you can pull brilliant outbraking maneuvres.

This is how I feel. 👍

 

[CSLACR]

I'm currently hideously hungover but even if I wasn't I'd be baffled at what you're talking about. Have you actually pressed the brakes in a real car without abs? The rears don't lock up immediately as they do with 5/5 because 5/5 is 50% 50%. In real cars atleast 70% of the braking force goes to the front wheels which is what me and everyone else adjusting brake balance wants to archieve, not make the car have less brake pressure and then just floor the pedal without the wheels ever locking (this is what I did in LFS when I was starting, I did not yet have the ability to move my feet while braking) and coming here and patronizing everyone who does the same with abs 1.

What exactly would be the point on PD's part to set the default value 5/5 and not have that represent 50% 50%? How many %s would one point then represent?

You're assuming it's a percentage, even in your last question.
I don't think it's a % at all, otherwise most cars would lock the rear wheels way before the front.
Since stock cars, even with frontward weight bias still don't lock the rears first, I don't have the slightest bit to convince me it's actually a percentage.

Does it say somewhere in the game it's a percentage? What is 10/10 then? You can't get over 100%, so how does 200% work?
Like I said, when most cars in the game start locking the rears way before the fronts at 5/5, you might be right. (In a straight line)

If you'd like to prove it is a percentage -
Buy a Volvo C30R (front biased weight balance)
Make a video, showing tuning restricted, and head out to track, still filming
Once on track, show that the settings are 5/5, ABS 0.
Get to a high speed, and brake, only locking the rears.

Because if 5/5 means 50%/50%, you should easily be able to do that.

Show me proof of this. With ABS 1 the wheels don't even get close to locking the whole braking physics are different. It doesn't engage and disengage there isn't a light flashing to tell you when ABS is restricting brake power to keep the wheels from not locking it's completely different.

Actually, since it's called "ABS (Anti-Lock Brake System) you have to prove to me that's it's something different.
That's how the "proof" system works. You say it's something other then what it's called by the game, get some evidence.

Also my wet track Yellowbird -test still stands (no matter what car it is, Yellowbird is just a good example since it's quite unstable all the time), under full brakes with ABS 1 the car becomes much more stable. TC or ASM or whatever (don't know, never used them) takes the realism out of accelerating and ABS takes the realism out of braking.

WOW, SHOCKER! Anti-Lock Brakes make a car more stable under braking?!?!?!? I can't imagine.

In the middle of writing this paragraf I threw up. Even though we're on the opposite sides of this debate have some sympathy .

You just asked me to "prove" that ABS only works once the wheels start to lock, so yes, I really do feel sympathy for you.

Why would you use pedal modulation when the wheels don't lock no matter what you do? All you're doing is making your braking less efficient and slowing your laptime.

Run faster lap then me and prove it. 💡
And this statement is very telling.
You don't even realize that the wheels do lock with ABS on 1.
I can't prove anything to someone that knows that little about the subject they're discussing.

I assume the rears are the ones that are locked and that spins the car. Try 4/1, that's what I use and I think it's very good.

You assume a lot, and that's the problem. I watched the tire colors on the front turn red first.
There's an idea, use the tools laid out in front of you by the game to decode the game. 💡

More than anything I hope PD allows us to set ABS prohibited in rooms. There are plenty of no ABS rooms but it's boring to have to check everyone to see if they're using it or not. With everyone racing with ABS 0 braking battles become much more intense and you can pull brilliant outbraking maneuvres.

I pull out braking maneuvers with ABS on, what's your point?
But then again, you don't know that the wheels do lock intermittently with ABS on, you also think the fastest way to drive with ABS is full stomp on the brake pedal, among other fictitious things.

But actually, I do agree. I very much hope PD adds ABS to the restrictable list as well, options never hurt.👍

 

[OK8]

Prove to me wheels lock under ABS. I've never seen it happen. How can you say that's not how the proof system works as you're the one making the claim.

The reason I'm in this debate with you is to reach some sort of understanding between us but you're just getting stuck in trivial things instead of furthering your argument. Who cares if it's a percentage? You got my point anyway didn't you? The 5/5 setting in this game is not the kind of brake balance cars have when they come out of the factory. And besides you can still think of it as a percentage since 10/10 results in stronger brakes anyway so the percentage is past 100%, but whatever makes it easiest for you to understand is what I'll call it from now on.

Who cares what ABS is called in this game it's a matter of what it does. Stop being silly and continue the discussion.

And about the Yellowbird thing, it is easier to turn the car with brakes floored compared to just coasting. Overall you get more grip. I figure PD didn't program a proper ABS in the game it's just a combination of other aids that stops the wheels losing grip when you're braking. And I know you're gonna come back and quote this saying something about how I assume things but the fact is you'd have to ask Kazunori. All I know is the ABS in the game is unrealistic and apparently realism isn't what you want from this game. I try to enable all aspects of racing in this game to further better myself and reach a higher level than before. Besides it's really hard for me to understand why you're so against driving without ABS as you claim you can do pedal modulation. Why not take the last step and continue playing without all aids?

If you'd like to prove it is a percentage -
Buy a Volvo C30R (front biased weight balance)
Make a video, showing tuning restricted, and head out to track, still filming
Once on track, show that the settings are 5/5, ABS 0.
Get to a high speed, and brake, only locking the rears.

Why would only the rears lock with 50-50% brake balance?

I pull out braking maneuvers with ABS on, what's your point?
But then again, you don't know that the wheels do lock intermittently with ABS on, you also think the fastest way to drive with ABS is full stomp on the brake pedal, among other fictitious things.

It's hard to out brake someone when both are standing on the pedal and decelerating at the same rate. I've never seen the wheels lock with abs on so I'd like you to show me it happens.


Every time I get into an internet fight the result is nothing but frustration (though it's the same with real fighting to be honest). We've never raced together and I don't care if you use ABS or not it's just hard for me to understand how you can still take this game seriously while every time you brake some electronic nanny is holding your hand. Like I said maybe realism isn't what you want from this game.

 

[CSLACR]

Prove to me wheels lock under ABS. I've never seen it happen. How can you say that's not how the proof system works as you're the one making the claim.

Anti-lock brakes always allow wheel lock before they engage. That's reality, do you want proof of that?
You're saying it's different in the game. It's "proven" by tire squeal under braking with ABS on 1.

The reason I'm in this debate with you is to reach some sort of understanding between us but you're just getting stuck in trivial things instead of furthering your argument. Who cares if it's a percentage? You got my point anyway didn't you? The 5/5 setting in this game is not the kind of brake balance cars have when they come out of the factory. And besides you can still think of it as a percentage since 10/10 results in stronger brakes anyway so the percentage is past 100%, but whatever makes it easiest for you to understand is what I'll call it from now on.

I think it is supposed to be. That's what I'm saying. It's not a percentage, but a default numeric value from which you can adjust the factory settings.
BUT
It is a percentage, in a way. 5/5 equals - stock brake force front and rear. 5/10 would be stock front brake force, 150% brake force at the rear.
It's clearly not 0-200%, because the brakes still work even at 0/0, I estimate it at a scale of 50%-150% between 0-10 for each wheel.
So before going into even more detail, do you understand what I mean with this? 5/5 being stock, and changing the numbers for each only changes the relation to stock for each set, front and rear?

Who cares what ABS is called in this game it's a matter of what it does. Stop being silly and continue the discussion.

It's not being "silly".
You're claiming that ABS means more then Anti-Lock Brake System in the game. I'd like to know what your evidence is.
Mine is jumping in with barely any experience and running very close to the same lap times without ABS. I have proof of many lap times, so I can easily compare those to what I run without ABS on the same cars, at the same tracks. If ABS were actually this "uber-aid" you make it out to be, surely I couldn't do that, could I?

And about the Yellowbird thing, it is easier to turn the car with brakes floored compared to just coasting. Overall you get more grip. I figure PD didn't program a proper ABS in the game it's just a combination of other aids that stops the wheels losing grip when you're braking. And I know you're gonna come back and quote this saying something about how I assume things but the fact is you'd have to ask Kazunori. All I know is the ABS in the game is unrealistic and apparently realism isn't what you want from this game. I try to enable all aspects of racing in this game to further better myself and reach a higher level than before.

I agree the ABS isn't car-specific, yes. Did you read any of my statements from before you entered the thread yet?

PD very clearly made the ABS in GT5 a very good ABS system, regardless of which car you're driving. But that doesn't make it more then an ABS, it makes it a very good ABS, and unrealistic for some cars.

As for the Yellowbird, if you're familiar with my thoughts on the way standard cars drive in GT5, you'd know I never use them for testing of the game. To many "phantom grip" cars, to many "no grip" cars, and overall, the parameters PD put into standards makes them a very unreliable source for what's what in the game.
So all of my testing is done with proper, newly programmed, un-glitched cars, it's just to much work trying to decipher which standards work properly, and which don't.

It's hard to out brake someone when both are standing on the pedal and decelerating at the same rate. I've never seen the wheels lock with abs on so I'd like you to show me it happens.

If you haven't seen it, and have driven with ABS on 1, I don't see how I could show you.
But you're taking "lock" to mean red tires and wheel smoke, aren't you? I'm talking about quick, intermittent squeals that indicate a slipping tire.

Every time I get into an internet fight the result is nothing but frustration (though it's the same with real fighting to be honest). We've never raced together and I don't care if you use ABS or not it's just hard for me to understand how you can still take this game seriously while every time you brake some electronic nanny is holding your hand. Like I said maybe realism isn't what you want from this game.

And like I said, it doesn't really change my lap times much, if at all, so I fail to see this "huge" realism difference.
Not to mention, as I said, ABS settings aren't truly enforceable in the game, so as long as online races can't limit it's use, it's a moot point from the gate.

 

[kilttraeger]

The 5/5 setting in this game is not the kind of brake balance cars have when they come out of the factory.

This is the reason you set the brake balance to something like 3/1, correct? Emulating the real life distribution of roughly 70% front, 30% rear?

Why would only the rears lock with 50-50% brake balance?

See above.

If you have equal stopping power front and rear, in real life the rear tires will always lock first. Yet that does not happen in GT5 with a 5/5 brake balance setting.
Correct?

 

[OK8]

How can you claim 5/5 is the realistic stock value if you've driven a car in real life and pushed the brakes. Actually, no need to answer because I withdraw from this argument before my head explodes.

I frankly don't bother to make videos and do tests and whatnot, all I know is ABS takes one element of racing completely out and it's you not me who's worse off. Without ABS you can actually mess up braking and the satisfaction comes from doing it right. When you're racing close to someone or in a braking battle you get nervous and you really have to find it within yourself to stay calm and control the car under braking. You're completely missing that.

I was at a skidpan with my car a month ago doing braking tests and the technique was the same I use in GT, go over the limit and then back again constantly moving my feet and I can tell you the rears didn't lock up. My car doesn't have ABS. The instructors said I was doing a good job.

I remember we've discussed this matter in an another thread some time in the past and the outcome is the same. I don't understand how you can strive to reach as high level of realism as possible but still completely exclude braking from the experience although you claim you have the skills required to race at the highest level of realism.

I can't get much personal satisfaction if I know a part of it is due to an aid, but I guess that's just me.

This is the reason you set the brake balance to something like 3/1, correct? Emulating the real life distribution of roughly 70% front, 30% rear?

Yes. 4/1 is what I use.

 

[CSLACR]

How can you claim 5/5 is the realistic stock value if you've driven a car in real life and pushed the brakes. Actually, no need to answer because I withdraw from this argument before my head explodes

I'm not sure why you're so upset about it.

I frankly don't bother to make videos and do tests and whatnot, all I know is ABS takes one element of racing completely out and it's you not me who's worse off. Without ABS you can actually mess up braking and the satisfaction comes from doing it right. When you're racing close to someone or in a braking battle you get nervous and you really have to find it within yourself to stay calm and control the car under braking. You're completely missing that.

So you honestly believe you can't screw up and crash with ABS on? Seriously?
This is what I mean. You're making ABS out to be this demon lurking in the room, that somehow changes the face of racing.
With ABS, people still screw up braking, brake to early, brake to late, crash, spin, etc.
You paint this picture as though if ABS is on, you have this huge safety blanket and no harm can come your way, which I see regularly is not even close to true.

I was at a skidpan with my car a month ago doing braking tests and the technique was the same I use in GT, go over the limit and then back again constantly moving my feet and I can tell you the rears didn't lock up. My car doesn't have ABS. The instructors said I was doing a good job.

Of course the rears didn't lock. Most cars will lock the fronts before the rears. The same happens at 5/5 in GT5.
The difference is, in a real car, you had more tools to brake on the threshold easier.

I remember we've discussed this matter in an another thread some time in the past and the outcome is the same. I don't understand how you can strive to reach as high level of realism as possible but still completely exclude braking from the experience although you claim you have the skills required to race at the highest level of realism.

Would you like to race me? Preferably with both ABS on 1, and then again with ABS at 0? That's the only way I know of to show you you don't drive properly with ABS on.
You've already told me you do, and compared proper braking technique without ABS vs awful technique with ABS.
Just imagine where I see the issue there.

I can't get much personal satisfaction if I know a part of it is due to an aid, but I guess that's just me.

That's because you didn't drive properly with ABS on, how many times do you need to hear that?

Yes. 4/1 is what I use.

Now answer their other question.

If you have equal stopping power front and rear, in real life the rear tires will always lock first. Yet that does not happen in GT5 with a 5/5 brake balance setting.
Correct?