Car Behavior and Tire Temps after Patch 2.0PS4

[ozwheels]

Softs for GT3 cars are meant for Qualifying only. More or less an out lap and flying lap. If you're using them in a race of even more than three laps you're doing it all wrong.

Where are you getting this info from? So far what I’ve seen is SMS saying softs are for cold conditions and hards for hot conditions.

 

[Bealdor]

Every track I’ve tested. This excludes tracks with crazy long straights like Daytona and LeMans. Tonight I was practicing at Algarve for a league race. Track temp 80C. Hards could be viable if you sacrificed a lot of pace, but when comparing the softs and hards on track it’s clear the softs are the ideal choice. The tires starting cold for practice and around 185 for the race causes some issues. When the tires start to overheat I notice it most with combined braking and downshifting, low speed apexes and slow corner exits. Imagine during practice when the tires start to get to 200F and overheat these problems become a 7/10 which isn’t ideal but it is manageable to an extent if you are careful. At the race start with the preheated tires these problems turn to a 10/10 instantly. Thus close racing on overheating tires becomes a little hard and unpredictable. I believe you were around for the 6.0 pCars 1 patch where everything overheated. It’s basically the same thing here.

For reference the hard tires have the same ‘cliff’ effect, but they don’t overheat nearly as fast or as easy and provide great racing.

Algarve is a track with many mid speed corners that is quite hard to your tires (similar to Catalunya). Soft slicks aren't a good choice for this kind of tracks.
You can't compare the PCARS 1 soft slicks with the new ones.
The only advice I could give you is to open your brake ducts a little bit, so the brakes won't heat your tires so much.

 

[ozwheels]

Algarve is a track with many mid speed corners that is quite hard to your tires (similar to Catalunya). Soft slicks aren't a good choice for this kind of tracks.
You can't compare the PCARS 1 soft slicks with the new ones.
The only advice I could give you is to open your brake ducts a little bit, so the brakes won't heat your tires so much.

It happens on any track. I fully understand the tires are different now. It is a fundamental trait of the soft tires that I described.

 

[BrandonW77]

I think it's a pretty odd decision to not allow tire warmers in practice or qualifying. So everyone practices and qualifies under certain conditions and then when they get to the race suddenly the conditions are different and unknown.

 

[Ware122]

Algarve is a track with many mid speed corners that is quite hard to your tires (similar to Catalunya). Soft slicks aren't a good choice for this kind of tracks.
You can't compare the PCARS 1 soft slicks with the new ones.
The only advice I could give you is to open your brake ducts a little bit, so the brakes won't heat your tires so much.

Does the brake temperature actually have an impact on the tires in this game? I’ve been struggling with hot tires every race but I keep the brake ducts closed and fair amount. I’m hoping they do they do so I can reduce my tire temperature.

 

[BrandonW77]

Does the brake temperature actually have an impact on the tires in this game? I’ve been struggling with hot tires every race but I keep the brake ducts closed and fair amount. I’m hoping they do they do so I can reduce my tire temperature.

Yes.

 

[Bealdor]

Does the brake temperature actually have an impact on the tires in this game? I’ve been struggling with hot tires every race but I keep the brake ducts closed and fair amount. I’m hoping they do they do so I can reduce my tire temperature.

Yes it does:

I agree it is pretty damn cool. Looks like a small detail, but it is so cool that setting tire pressure for the track, weather, car setup, everything else is this deep now. It's a big job getting it right in real racing, and our 9-layer dip* of a heat model means it is just as significant a challenge in game. Was more than a little pleased after we got the calibrations right and it worked so that a single heat model gives accurate results for how temperature builds up through all the important layers over time on the IndyCar both at Long Beach and Indianapolis. There couldn't be more extreme ends of the spectrum on how heat flows through the wheel-brake-tire system and I think it adds a lot to the 'living tracks' experience.

You're right that it's totally against what we've learned from games for going on 25 years now where tire pressure is directly related to tire temperature. Yeah, they are connected but the whole system is much more involved than that.

What Jussi means about preheating is that when we preheat tires, it's like done in ovens as you might see used in FIA WEC. The whole tire and wheel come out at maybe 90°C throughout, but that's not where it will be after running a few laps. Tread might be 90, carcass interior 105, rim heated to 140 by the brakes, surface layer changing rapidly above and below tread core, etc. All that can make the inflation pressure fluctuate in unexpected ways until you run long enough for the whole system to stabilize.

*The layers: Ambient<->Flash<->Surface Layer<->Tread<->Carcass<->Inflation Air<->Rim<->'Well' air between rim and brake, which also vents to ambient<->Brake rotor

 

[F1Racer68]

Does the brake temperature actually have an impact on the tires in this game? I’ve been struggling with hot tires every race but I keep the brake ducts closed and fair amount. I’m hoping they do they do so I can reduce my tire temperature.

Yes, it most certainly does. Tested and confirmed.

This is something that has been lacking in sims for a long time. Glad to see it is FINALLY included.

 

[Ware122]

Yes, it most certainly does. Tested and confirmed.

This is something that has been lacking in sims for a long time. Glad to see it is FINALLY included.

Thank you so much for the great help and info! I just tested and it’s made a substantial improvement on my tire temperatures! That’s amazing!

 

[JRDGM1993]

1.70/1.55 was the number used in the official forums, so my setup was drastically different.

It´s all good thou, i believe you can set up a car to go fast in with different approaches, so the only thing that´s clear is that tuning is complex and full of possibilities.

after some laps or leaving the pits

 

[ozwheels]

 

[crowhop]

Where are you getting this info from? So far what I’ve seen is SMS saying softs are for cold conditions and hards for hot conditions.

A lot of driving. I don't know and don't really care if they're bugged. They may fix it so they last, they may not. I don't know the real life circumstances of Soft Tires in the PWC or IMSA or WEC GT3 classes are. If they make a change I hope it is toward realism either way. But I know the Softs currently only work for a single flying lap in the GT3 class. Trying to make them stretch is useless.

It's kinda like this whole thread, really. I hope the game is realistic, but I enjoy the game as it is, be it realistic or not. And now that I've learned how the Tire Pressures and Temps work in game and how to manipulate them to work well, I'm good with it.

 

[Hilazza]

From pirelli

Working pressure values depend on the size of the tire in relation to the load that it is subjected to. In other words, the pressure will vary according to the type of vehicle, its weight, the position of the engine, the aerodynamics and the conditions of use. As the weight of the vehicle, the aerodynamic load, speed and acceleration that the tire is subjected to increase, the working pressure must be increased. Generally speaking, “heated up” working pressures vary from 1.9 to 2.2 bar for GT cars and 2.0 to 2.5 bar for tourism cars. Initial inflation pressures vary in order to obtain these values, depending on whether the tires are preheated or used “cold”. Indeed, preheated tires can be inflated to lower values than cold tires. The difference may amount to 0.3 to 0.5 bar, depending on the type of heater, the time it remains and the environmental conditions. In any case, tires should never be used below the minimum pressure value of 1.6 bar.

Attention: Using excessively low pressures would bring about the breaking of the tire due to excess force on the sidewall and bead unseating from the rim.
The use of nitrogen or dry air to inflate the tires means that the variation in pressure, as the temperature increases due to use, is limited, meaning greater precision in deciding optimal conditions of use.

 

[ozwheels]

A lot of driving. I don't know and don't really care if they're bugged. They may fix it so they last, they may not. I don't know the real life circumstances of Soft Tires in the PWC or IMSA or WEC GT3 classes are. If they make a change I hope it is toward realism either way. But I know the Softs currently only work for a single flying lap in the GT3 class. Trying to make them stretch is useless.

So you’re telling me you are using hards in the middle of the night with track temperatures below 60F?

 

[crowhop]

So you’re telling me you are using hards in the middle of the night with track temperatures below 60F?

I'm using Hard tires in the GT3 class all the time during a race. All the time. Heck, I even Time Trial with Hard Tires because that is the Default Tire on "Auto by weather" and I TT with Tire Wear set to On. The pace isn't that much different and they last 40 times longer.

My guess is the Tire Compound is the big differentiator between the GTE and GT3 classes. If both Classes ran Softs, the lap times would be more or less identical. As it is, the GTE class is basically only quicker because they run Softs during the race and the GT3s have to run Hards.

EDIT: I run in a multi-class league (see sig) using a GT3 class car. All of our GT3 grid uses the Hard tires during the race.

EDIT 2: I'm now wondering if this is why so many people online crash in the GT3 cars. For me, they're so easy to drive they're almost boring. You have to drive so erratically to make them spin it's comical. But if folks are trying to make the Softs last even 2 laps, that would explain a lot. A lot, a lot.

 

[jimmy_b_84]

I have been following the tyres pressure heat saga for a while and I've finally managed to read all 224 posts in this thread, from my testing in mainly GT3 cars at daytona, algarve I have found that anything below 100F soft tyres are possible to use but tyre heat (peak) can be an issue the hard are more predictable for a longer period, if you can maintain heat these are a better option for longer runs. I've found above 100F the hard are the tyres to go for (for me).

One thing I haven't tested is the difference between front/mid/rear engined cars as mentioned in a post above and the effect on the tyres. Most of my tested has been done in the Ferrari 488 GT3.

I have also tested the LMP2 and have completed an hour race at Imola with no problem with the tyres, I based all my hot pressures on the table below (from Casey's info posted earlier). As a side note I was posting quick times in LMP2 at Imola after 45-50mins racing 1:40/1:41s.

I have noticed in the slightly longer runs I've manged that the hot pressure appears to me more important than the temperature.

If I have a cold tyre and the right pressure, it works a lot better than a hot tyre at he wrong pressure, having both would be better but I'm still figuring the finer details out.


Hope this helps.

 

[ozwheels]

I'm using Hard tires in the GT3 class all the time during a race. All the time. Heck, I even Time Trial with Hard Tires because that is the Default Tire on "Auto by weather" and I TT with Tire Wear set to On. The pace isn't that much different and they last 40 times longer.

My guess is the Tire Compound is the big differentiator between the GTE and GT3 classes. If both Classes ran Softs, the lap times would be more or less identical. As it is, the GTE class is basically only quicker because they run Softs during the race and the GT3s have to run Hards.

EDIT: I run in a multi-class league (see sig) using a GT3 class car. All of our GT3 grid uses the Hard tires during the race.

EDIT 2: I'm now wondering if this is why so many people online crash in the GT3 cars. For me, they're so easy to drive they're almost boring. You have to drive so erratically to make them spin it's comical. But if folks are trying to make the Softs last even 2 laps, that would explain a lot. A lot, a lot.

A lot of my findings and testing line up with what you are saying here. My problem is the hards on cold track. I’ve tried it and they just wouldn’t heat up. Granted this was in a practice session, maybe in the race with the preheated tires they could maintain the temperature they need?

 

[azidahaka]

Not sure what is up, but TCR cars on stock setup are great, but if you change the track to colder conditions like winter or autumn they won't get heaten up even after 20 laps and the car will be almost undriveable most of the time.

Main issue seems to be the rear being unreasonably cold no matter what you'll be doing?

 

[crowhop]

A lot of my findings and testing line up with what you are saying here. My problem is the hards on cold track. I’ve tried it and they just wouldn’t heat up. Granted this was in a practice session, maybe in the race with the preheated tires they could maintain the temperature they need?

We just raced at Long Beach last Saturday night. By race end it was cold and dark and the track was slippery. I stopped at the halfway point and the new tires I had them put on had Pressures more or less +0.1 Bar all around from the Tires' Pressures I started the race on. They were still colder than ideal by the end of the race, but it was manageable. 35 laps on the first stint and I think around 31 on the second stint.

Working with Pre-Heated tires versus tires you have to heat up yourself is tricky. Tuning Pressures for a Time Trial is tricky as heck, in my experience.

 

[ozwheels]

We just raced at Long Beach last Saturday night. By race end it was cold and dark and the track was slippery. I stopped at the halfway point and the new tires I had them put on had Pressures more or less +0.1 Bar all around from the Tires' Pressures I started the race on. They were still colder than ideal by the end of the race, but it was manageable. 35 laps on the first stint and I think around 31 on the second stint.

Working with Pre-Heated tires versus tires you have to heat up yourself is tricky. Tuning Pressures for a Time Trial is tricky as heck, in my experience.

I don’t understand the design decision to have tires cold for everything other than races. It creates so much confusion when discussing tires and headache trying to set pressures for the race. It’s been well documented in this thread that the softs are decent in long run pace in practice but they aren’t able to replicate that in the races and the hards may never heat up in practice but will work in the race. SMS seem to be trying to replicate real life with practice and qualifying, but falling back on video game choices for the races.

 

[twitcher]

I don’t understand the design decision to have tires cold for everything other than races. It creates so much confusion when discussing tires and headache trying to set pressures for the race. It’s been well documented in this thread that the softs are decent in long run pace in practice but they aren’t able to replicate that in the races and the hards may never heat up in practice but will work in the race. SMS seem to be trying to replicate real life with practice and qualifying, but falling back on video game choices for the races.

My favourite is pitting for new tires mid race, in a car that doesn't use blankets or ovens....aaaand you leave the lane with tires at working temps.

Ultra realistic, they really nailed the authenticity on that one 👍

 

[ozwheels]

My favourite is pitting for new tires mid race, in a car that doesn't use blankets or ovens....aaaand you leave the lane with tires at working temps.

Ultra realistic, they really nailed the authenticity on that one 👍

You are being a tiny bit dramatic. Obviously it’s so people can make it through the first lap without killing each other.

 

[twitcher]

You are being a tiny bit dramatic. Obviously it’s so people can make it through the first lap without killing each other.

Not talking about the first lap. First lap, tires get brought up to temp on the warm up lap.

I'm talking about pitting for new tires, mid race. In the majority of cars, when you pit mid race and leave the pits on new tires, they should be cold. Watch any racing series that doesn't allow tire warmers/blankets/ovens, like Super GT, or Indycar, and you see evidence of this.

Instead, the game fits tires which are magically pre-heated...or we're supposed to imagine that every pit crew for every car in the game is using tire blankets. Neither is realistic.

Why would SMS omit this important aspect of racing - leaving the pits mid race on cold tires. Did they forget? And because the game wasn't tested, it wasn't picked up on by a testing team? Do they lack confidence in their tire model, and the way cold tires heat up? Who knows???

I'm going to assume that you misunderstood me, since you were talking about the first lap of a race....but it's kind of interesting that your response is basically "omit aspects of realism to make the game easier for people to play." That's kind of an odd turn to take, given the general direction this thread is focused on (realism and the tire model).

 

[ozwheels]

Not talking about the first lap. First lap, tires get brought up to temp on the warm up lap.

I'm talking about pitting for new tires, mid race. In the majority of cars, when you pit mid race and leave the pits on new tires, they should be cold. Watch any racing series that doesn't allow tire warmers/blankets/ovens, like Super GT, or Indycar, and you see evidence of this.

Instead, the game fits tires which are magically pre-heated...or we're supposed to imagine that every pit crew for every car in the game is using tire blankets. Neither is realistic.

Why would SMS omit this important aspect of racing - leaving the pits mid race on cold tires. Did they forget? And because the game wasn't tested, it wasn't picked up on by a testing team? Do they lack confidence in their tire model, and the way cold tires heat up? Who knows???

I'm going to assume that you misunderstood me, since you were talking about the first lap of a race....but it's kind of interesting that your response is basically "omit aspects of realism to make the game easier for people to play." That's kind of an odd turn to take, given the general direction this thread is focused on (realism and the tire model).

I understood your post my response still applies. Personally I’m not against having cold tires. I do however see the logic behind the design decision. In my opinion the vast majority of players won’t have sufficient ability to control their car on cold tires or they won’t think it’s fun to have to heat them up. At the end of the day the video game industry is an entertainment one and fun and entertaining usually go hand in hand. As far as this game being a sim there are still certain aspects that will probably never be fully replicated. Such as cold tires and gravel traps. That’s the reality of games.

 

[Jack Dulmage]

We just raced at Long Beach last Saturday night. By race end it was cold and dark and the track was slippery. I stopped at the halfway point and the new tires I had them put on had Pressures more or less +0.1 Bar all around from the Tires' Pressures I started the race on. They were still colder than ideal by the end of the race, but it was manageable. 35 laps on the first stint and I think around 31 on the second stint.

Working with Pre-Heated tires versus tires you have to heat up yourself is tricky. Tuning Pressures for a Time Trial is tricky as heck, in my experience.

Can I ask a favour of you then? I have been doing a ton of league testing in GTE cara and the only way to get my tires heated adequately is too drop the pressure down to near minimum or the minimum. Could you take the Ford GTE on the track at 16:00 and find your working pressure range. and then change the time to 0:00 and do the same? I'm very curious as to what you will come up with for working pressures for day and night as you seem to be getting drastically different results than I am! I was able to set a 1:43.9xx with the soft tire with the car at 16:00, not the fastest time in the world but defintely competitive enough that the tires should be thoroughly worked.

If not I understand, just need an example of something we have both done to get an idea of what pressures and temps you are dealing with. my temps during the evening stay around 80 Celsius, and decline to 65 average at night.

thanks!

 

[F1Racer68]

Can I ask a favour of you then? I have been doing a ton of league testing in GTE cara and the only way to get my tires heated adequately is too drop the pressure down to near minimum or the minimum. Could you take the Ford GTE on the track at 16:00 and find your working pressure range. and then change the time to 0:00 and do the same? I'm very curious as to what you will come up with for working pressures for day and night as you seem to be getting drastically different results than I am! I was able to set a 1:43.9xx with the soft tire with the car at 16:00, not the fastest time in the world but defintely competitive enough that the tires should be thoroughly worked.

If not I understand, just need an example of something we have both done to get an idea of what pressures and temps you are dealing with. my temps during the evening stay around 80 Celsius, and decline to 65 average at night.

thanks!

I run the Ford GT GTE in the league that @crowhop is part of. My starting (cold) pressures for our Daytona race were as follows:

Daytime - 1.71bar front, 1.66bar rear. Reaches 32 PSI hot and running at 165F

Nighttime - 1.79bar front, 1.73bar rear. Reaches 32 PSI hot and running at 165F.

Brake duct settings are also critical in order to retain enough heat to help heat the tires. I don't recall my exact lap times, but they were in the 1:42.8 - 1:43.3 range.

Suspension setup was default (loose) with downforce, radiator opening, brake ducts and brake pressure being the only adjustments.

Race date on track was Oct 8th, 2017 in clear conditions.

 

[ozwheels]

I run the Ford GT GTE in the league that @crowhop is part of. My starting (cold) pressures for our Daytona race were as follows:

Daytime - 1.71bar front, 1.66bar rear. Reaches 32 PSI hot and running at 165F

Nighttime - 1.79bar front, 1.73bar rear. Reaches 32 PSI hot and running at 165F.

Brake duct settings are also critical in order to retain enough heat to help heat the tires. I don't recall my exact lap times, but they were in the 1:42.8 - 1:43.3 range.

Suspension setup was default (loose) with downforce, radiator opening, brake ducts and brake pressure being the only adjustments.

Race date on track was Oct 8th, 2017 in clear conditions.

Out of curiosity did you increase your pressures at night to keep the same hot pressure or for a lower temperature?

 

[FuriousDemon]

Out of curiosity did you increase your pressures at night to keep the same hot pressure or for a lower temperature?

He says those pressures are cold, so yes, looks like he did increase it by 0.08 and 0.07.

 

[redi]

Can someone kindly explain to me what is really going on here with the tire temps and pressures?

There seems to be no correlation between heat and pressure which in my mind flies in the face of logic.

Race Start: Front Temp 74/73 - Rear Temp 74/74
Front PSI 28/28 - Rear PSI 26/26

Mid Race : Front Temp 93/68 - Rear Temp 93/81
Front PSI 26/26 - Rear PSI 25/25

Race End: Front Temp 91/63 - Rear Temp 94/78
Front PSI 26/25 - Rear PSI 25/24

On Lap 4 his FL tire temp drops to 54 but pressure is still holding at 25. What's more confusing, is that if PC2 simulates heat from the brakes, then how is it that under heavy braking he moves from 58-56 and 56-54.

You hear the driver complain about the lack of grip as the race progresses, and wonders why his tires are getting cold, and the pressures are dropping.

For someone who is about to jump into PC2 a bit of an explanation would go a long way to helping me set my expectations about this game.

Thanks.

The connection between tyre and brake heating is rather complex and depends on a number of factors. Given that tyres and brakes start pre-heated and driving actually adds cooling due to air flow and contact with colder asphalt, how temperatures develop over a race depends on factors like driving style, track layout, suspension and air ducts settings, to name a few. Also keep in mind that the telemetry HUD shows contact patch temperature, not tyre carcass or tyre air temperature.

 

[Dev Nibor]

Softs for GT3 cars are meant for Qualifying only. More or less an out lap and flying lap. If you're using them in a race of even more than three laps you're doing it all wrong.

Whether they are ment for qualifying only I will leave in the middle but they can certainly be used for longer sessions.
I did a 45 minutes league race last weekend on softs and they weren't even worn out by the end.
Other racers on hard slicks told me after the race they could not keep up with the pace.

Temperatures were around 20 degrees celcius.

I recorded the race so you can see for yourself