Cars stepping out

[cicohipe]

Why implement a feature that doesn't make any difference and nobody will care about? That costs time and time costs money.

I'm just relating the fact that the majority of people that wish for more realistic features are usually the die-hards. The have the wheel set-ups they spend a good deal of money etc. The people that pay the checks for Sony and PD are the ones that use the basic controller. And they couldn't really care less about features such as this. If they did they don't care enough to say anything, rather they just wouldn't buy the next game.

Because it looks cool for one thing. NFS games have had this in them for awhile and they arnt exactly realistic. Also forza games i believe from number 1 have had this. It's clearly not hard to implement and has simply been overlooked by PD for some reason.

I don't understand why you are so vocally against it?

Also just for your information im no diehard and i use a normal controller.

 

[Simple SIM]

Sorry, but no... What he was implying is that since obtaining physics perfection is so important to Kaz he won't implement a feature that he can't have modeled perfectly. SO UNTIL he and his team can model the REASONS behind the step out, and then model the following step out properly, without it just being a standard one code for all cars deal, he WON'T do it. Because it won't be done PROPERLY, and it'll be a hackjob physics code just to have it in the game. Nice job twisting words there SIM. 👍 TROLL ALERT.

Oh I see, your argument is that noone has been able to do it "right" rather than it has already been done right by many other games for many years already.

 

[Coiler]

Sorry, but no... What he was implying is that since obtaining physics perfection is so important to Kaz he won't implement a feature that he can't have modeled perfectly. SO UNTIL he and his team can model the REASONS behind the step out, and then model the following step out properly, without it just being a standard one code for all cars deal, he WON'T do it. Because it won't be done PROPERLY, and it'll be a hackjob physics code just to have it in the game. Nice job twisting words there SIM. 👍 TROLL ALERT.

Like always Sim is the first to the battle...

 

[Snaeper]

Because it looks cool for one thing. NFS games have had this in them for awhile and they arnt exactly realistic. Also forza games i believe from number 1 have had this. It's clearly not hard to implement and has simply been overlooked by PD for some reason.

I don't understand why you are so vocally against it?

Also just for your information im no diehard and i use a normal controller.

I don't understand why you are so vocally for it?

I apologize, I just try to put my head into the people that don't lurk gtplanet. I ask "Would they care? Would it irritate them? Would they enjoy it?" If I feel like the answers are no/no/no or no/yes/no then all that work will have been for nothing. GT needs to invest in features that blow minds to even casual gamers.

 

[cicohipe]

I don't understand why you are so vocally for it?

I apologize, I just try to put my head into the people that don't lurk gtplanet. I ask "Would they care? Would it irritate them? Would they enjoy it?" If I feel like the answers are no/no/no or no/yes/no then all that work will have been for nothing. GT needs to invest in features that blow minds to even casual gamers.

I'm for it because it happens in real life and in my opinion it adds to the game. I thought i kind of clarified that in my opening post...

 

[Snaeper]

I'm for it because it happens in real life and in my opinion it adds to the game. I thought i kind of clarified that in my opening post...

Okay, well then. I'm against it because I've never felt the need for it to be in any racing game. If it's been in a racing game I've played, I've never noticed. In fact I've never really thought about it even happening in real cars. So why would I want them to put something in the game that, had we not had this discussion, I wouldn't have noticed? Let alone the people that care even less about automotive physics than I do.

And do you think that they don't have to justify every little detail that goes into their game? PD is rare in that they can take as much time developing a game as they seem to desire. But everything still needs to be discussed. Ultimately I think this adds nothing to the series, so it has little reason of being added, until they start running out of important things to add. Then we'll see.

Do you understand why I'm vocally against it now? Even I had to think about why I was arguing with you.

 

[Bank]

and here we go....

You said it, Mr. Joker.

 

[kayman]

Okay, well then. I'm against it because I've never felt the need for it to be in any racing game. If it's been in a racing game I've played, I've never noticed. In fact I've never really thought about it even happening in real cars. So why would I want them to put something in the game that, had we not had this discussion, I wouldn't have noticed? Let alone the people that care even less about automotive physics than I do.

And do you think that they don't have to justify every little detail that goes into their game? PD is rare in that they can take as much time developing a game as they seem to desire. But everything still needs to be discussed. Ultimately I think this adds nothing to the series, so it has little reason of being added, until they start running out of important things to add. Then we'll see.

Do you understand why I'm vocally against it now? Even I had to think about why I was arguing with you.

I think it does add something.

When you launch a car from a standing start you have to balance the throttle/clutch to get away cleanly.

Not as easy as just stomping on the gas pedal.

 

[Dave A]

True, but not balancing the throttle and clutch well doesn't directly result in the back end stepping out. A rwd cars back end will step out when you spin the wheels and there is a seperate force pulling the car laterally to one side, either gravity (on a cambered road) or a difference in weight/grip on one side over the other (the weight of the driver for example unbalances weight distribution from one side to the other). All the actual wheelspin does is reduces the grip of both rear tyres so that any latteral forces acting at the same time will have a bigger effect than if the tyres were wthin thier grip limits.

 

[cletus 669]

Sorry, but no... What he was implying is that since obtaining physics perfection is so important to Kaz he won't implement a feature that he can't have modeled perfectly. SO UNTIL he and his team can model the REASONS behind the step out, and then model the following step out properly, without it just being a standard one code for all cars deal, he WON'T do it. Because it won't be done PROPERLY, and it'll be a hackjob physics code just to have it in the game. Nice job twisting words there SIM. 👍 TROLL ALERT.

Thank you for helping get my point clarified.

 

[Mubble]

Well, I can say from quite a bit of personal experience that (at least in an MR2 turbo) the car really doesn't swing out while I am spinning the tires. I know that there are a lot of cars that do, but that is usually caused by different amounts of grip on the road.

My MR2 turbo rarely pulls straight when wheelspinning off the line - I usually have to use a fair degree of correction to the steering. (mine puts out just under 300bhp (250 at the wheels)).

And mine has an aftermarket LSD, so disagree that a differential stops the car stepping out. Edit: Ignore that comment. I misread the quote ^^.

 

[cicohipe]

My MR2 turbo rarely pulls straight when wheelspinning off the line - I usually have to use a fair degree of correction to the steering. (mine puts out just under 300bhp (250 at the wheels)).

And mine has an aftermarket LSD, so disagree that a differential stops the car stepping out.

Mubble, if you are on a flat stretch of road what way will your car step out?

Also i'm pretty sure everyone is saying that it is a lack of a limited-slip differential (all cars of course have diff's)

 

[Tapey]

GT's physics needs some serious work. People see the realistic graphics and it tricks them into believing that other things are more realistic than they actually are.

The collision physics need work, the fact that you can grind along the rails at 150mph and actually accelerate while doing it.

There are other games with more complete, more realistic physics/handling models.

What games have more realistic physics/handling models?

I remember a video posted in another thread of the Forza 3 demo where somebody grinded along the wall at the bottom of the hill in the same manner as the .gif you posted. The only difference was that when the person playing the Forza 3 demo did this the physics glitched out and he got stuck whereas in GT5, as your .gif proves, that doesn't happen. So I guess you could say GT5 has the best physics engine 👍

 

[Simple SIM]

What games have more realistic physics/handling models?

I remember a video posted in another thread of the Forza 3 demo where somebody grinded along the wall at the bottom of the hill in the same manner as the .gif you posted. The only difference was that when the person playing the Forza 3 demo did this the physics glitched out and he got stuck whereas in GT5, as your .gif proves, that doesn't happen. So I guess you could say GT5 has the best physics engine 👍

No, you cannot do that in Forza. Infact I can't think of any other SIM that allows such a thing.

 

[Mubble]

Mubble, if you are on a flat stretch of road what way will your car step out?

Also i'm pretty sure everyone is saying that it is a lack of a limited-slip differential (all cars of course have diff's)

The rear steps to the right:

 

[cicohipe]

Wow, ive never seen that before.... Quick car btw

 

[LongbowX]

I'll prolly get labeled as a troll for this post but I'm just gonna be honest here.

GT's physics needs some serious work. People see the realistic graphics and it tricks them into believing that other things are more realistic than they actually are.

The collision physics need work, the fact that you can grind along the rails at 150mph and actually accelerate while doing it.

Or the fact that you can just, as you say, punch the gas on even the most powerful of cars, not loose control and speed off in a perfectly straight line. Still no tire deformation ect.

All these things add up and they tell me that GT's physics are missing some very fundamental calculations and are not nearly as realistic as many people give them credit for.

There are other games with more complete, more realistic physics/handling models.

Yes, there are elements of GT's physics that need work. The other games that have "better" models, have other negatives. It is always a trade off.

Also, it is very hard to compare physics of games when the other game is six months away from actually being played. The example given is from a demo on an incomplete project. Reserving judgment until the game is released, would be a wise decision.

Not to mention, that this specific thread was for the discussion of issues to do with the car stepping out on launch. And yet you bring up other issues like rail-running and others that really should be talked about elsewhere. This is not the place for a general discussion of all the issues. Please do not make it so. That is why other members have singled you out as a troll, not because of your points which can certainly be discussed. Just not here.

 

[Simple SIM]

Yes, there are elements of GT's physics that need work. The other games that have "better" models, have other negatives. It is always a trade off.

Also, it is very hard to compare physics of games when the other game is six months away from actually being played. The example given is from a demo on an incomplete project. Reserving judgment until the game is released, would be a wise decision.

Not to mention, that this specific thread was for the discussion of issues to do with the car stepping out on launch. And yet you bring up other issues like rail-running and others that really should be talked about elsewhere. This is not the place for a general discussion of all the issues. Please do not make it so. That is why other members have singled you out as a troll, not because of your points which can certainly be discussed.

All the things I mentioned are based on what has been true for every single GT game in the past and based on what is known so far these areas have still not been addressed, even when looking at the most recent build.

Do no confuse me commenting about what is known now with speculating what will or won't be in the final build.

 

[killanite]

All the things I mentioned are based on what has been true for every single GT game in the past and based on what is known so far these areas have still not been addressed, even when looking at the most recent build.

Do no confuse me commenting about what is known now with speculating what will or won't be in the final build.

And none of these things have anything do to with the actual thread topic. What does collision physics have to do with cars stepping out on launch?

Btw the merc is doing 150 kph not mph.. Doing that corner properly without collision, you can carry alot more speed which means that there is consequence to wall grinding albiet not as big. Having said that, we are yet to see the damage implemented so all these grinding could pretty much be taken out of the game with the simple implementation of mechanical damage (which has been confirmed to come but not shown yet on the standard cars)

 

[Simple SIM]

And none of these things have anything do to with the actual thread topic. What does collision physics have to do with cars stepping out on launch?

Btw the merc is doing 150 kph not mph.. Doing that corner properly without collision, you can carry alot more speed which means that there is consequence to wall grinding albiet not as big. Having said that, we are yet to see the damage implemented so all these grinding could pretty much be taken out of the game with the simple implementation of mechanical damage (which has been confirmed to come but not shown yet on the standard cars)

Why don't you try reading the TC's original post again.

No, you can clearly see that there is zero friction induced by wall grinding as has been true in all GT games and has been the source of many complaints. You can actually win easier by wall grinding than by racing cleanly because you can go faster while wall grinding than you would be able to taking the turn properly.

When systems have been put in place that remove the ability to wall grind in that way then I won't talk about them anymore. But based on all previous games in the GT series and the most recent build of GT 5, that is not the case.

Will it change? Maybe. But it hasn't yet.

 

[killanite]

Why don't you try reading the TC's original post again.

No, you can clearly see that there is zero friction induced by wall grinding as has been true in all GT games and has been the source of many complaints. You can actually win easier by wall grinding than by racing cleanly because you can go faster while wall grinding than you would be able to taking the turn properly.

When systems have been put in place that remove the ability to wall grind in that way then I won't talk about them anymore. But based on all previous games in the GT series and the most recent build of GT 5, that is not the case.

Will it change? Maybe. But it hasn't yet.

Zero friction? Really? Cause if there was zero friction that merc would be accelerating a hell of alot quicker.

How about you stop judging GT5 by it's previous versions and make that the basis of your fact regarding how GT5 will be. No one here knows how GT5 will be and most definatly not you, especially since you seem to ignore every positive interview with Kaz mentioning the things that will be coming to GT and basing it all on 5 minute demos 8 months before release date.

 

[LongbowX]

All the things I mentioned are based on what has been true for every single GT game in the past and based on what is known so far these areas have still not been addressed, even when looking at the most recent build.

Do no confuse me commenting about what is known now with speculating what will or won't be in the final build.

And none of these things have anything do to with the actual thread topic. What does collision physics have to do with cars stepping out on launch?

Btw the merc is doing 150 kph not mph.. Doing that corner properly without collision, you can carry alot more speed which means that there is consequence to wall grinding albiet not as big. Having said that, we are yet to see the damage implemented so all these grinding could pretty much be taken out of the game with the simple implementation of mechanical damage (which has been confirmed to come but not shown yet on the standard cars)

That was my main point at the end. The discussion of wall-riding should be taken elsewhere, as it has nothing to do with the topic being discussed. Yes, they should fix that - but if you don't ride on the wall (which I believe everyone who is aware of how racing works in real life knows that you aren't supposed to ride the wall), then it does not affect you. Which is how people are supposed to race. Not to mention what killanite said about mechanical damage.

Again, this is off topic, please bring the discussion back to the topic at hand.

 

[vaioleto]

Why are people still arguing over this mundane matter.

GTPSP already does this. Take a Mazda Furai, go to twin ring motegi, full throttle it from a stand, Stop this stupidity.

In this example the driver needs more work than the physics.

 

[yeti]

No, you can clearly see that there is zero friction induced by wall grinding

Wrong - as soon as the car leaves the rails - the car accelerates to a much faster speed.

C.

 

[RedSuinit]

My MR2 turbo rarely pulls straight when wheelspinning off the line - I usually have to use a fair degree of correction to the steering. (mine puts out just under 300bhp (250 at the wheels)).

And mine has an aftermarket LSD, so disagree that a differential stops the car stepping out. Edit: Ignore that comment. I misread the quote ^^.

Nice. What year, and what have you done to the engine? Mine is stock, with the standard CT26 turbo.

 

[an1mal_69]

I would say a LACK of an LSD diff.

Single spinners don't crab according to MY personal experiences.

yup..i'll vouch for that although I think some MR2's did have an LSD from Toyota. Another factor is the fact its mid-engined with more weight over the back.

I have a high powered 2WD Cosworth and that very definately 'steps out'

It is a flaw in the game whatever your opinion..If the physics was right, it would just happen as its a natural phenomenon involving the forces at work, it wouldn't need to be moddled into the game or programmed to occur

 

[RedSuinit]

yup..i'll vouch for that although I think some MR2's did have an LSD from Toyota. Another factor is the fact its mid-engined with more weight over the back.

I have a high powered 2WD Cosworth and that very definately 'steps out'

It is a flaw in the game whatever your opinion..If the physics was right, it would just happen as its a natural phenomenon involving the forces at work, it wouldn't need to be moddled into the game or programmed to occur

Let's see if we can actually get down to the truth of the matter as to why this happens.

 

[premhz]

Probably how "tight" the clutch packs lock up in the LSD.

 

[premhz]

And then there's the dreadful experience called Corvette Z06 and co, that step out at 120mph+..

OH YEAH! Scary as hell that beast of a car!

 

[Custer85]

I'll prolly get labeled as a troll for this post but I'm just gonna be honest here.

GT's physics needs some serious work. People see the realistic graphics and it tricks them into believing that other things are more realistic than they actually are.

The collision physics need work, the fact that you can grind along the rails at 150mph and actually accelerate while doing it.

Indestructable wall vs indestructable car, what do you expect?
As soon as damage is fully applied i expect the cars to get seriously damaged and therefore absorb the energy of the impact. Right now most of the energy is just reflected and makes the car slide along the guard rails.
The collisionphysics are perfectly fine, GT5p had some issues, but the TGS and GC demo show that PD has improved the collision physics.

Just because GT5 does not represent tiredeformation visually, does not mean, that the physics engine does not take the tire deformation into account. Visual tiredeformation is totally overhyped and Turn 10 clearly got you aboard their hypetrain. But be aware, as soon as you play the demo the train will hit a solid wall, trust me!

But your post had nothing to do with the topic, so you have to accept to be called a troll.
Definition of troll: (wikipedia)
"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."

Like vaioleto allready said, play GT PSP.