Chevrolet Volt/Cadillac ELR Thread: 2016 EPA Ratings

  • Thread starter Thread starter YSSMAN
  • 717 comments
  • 86,850 views
Jim Prower
Well, it depends on gearing, too, but generally electrics trail off at the top end where many gasoline engines still pull strong. That low end torque is mega fun around the city, but at highway speeds, it probably won't be as strong at WOT as a high-performance gas or diesel engine of similar output would be. Many of those videos of little electric cars beating exotics in drag races have to do more with Power-weight ratio and gearing (and the torque curve) than acutal performance.

The reason diesel locomotives use electric traction motors is for mechanical simplicity, as mechanical transmissions for such vechicles would be incredibly complex: and they have been tried.

On another note, If freight locomotives are any indication, Direct-Current motors have less trail-off than Alternating-Current motors, but the AC motors put forth more tractive effort (For given horsepower) at those low speeds.
Click to expand...

You cannot gear an electric motor like a petrol. And the power curve, god, its so much better than a petrols. Virtually flat up to higher RPMs, the Tesla for example has 200 ft-lbs all the way to 6000 RPM, with it trailing off far less drastically than any piston engine.

And power to weight? Surely you jest. The Tesla is close to 3000 lbs I believe, and the Tango, which is faster, weighs even more. Batteries add up very quickly, its just when you can manage tons of torque, you also have a large power band. The smoother the power band, the better. You start doing math for acceleration of cars if they had larger, more consistent power band, and its amazing how much a difference having a bit less peak but 3 times the range makes.
 
No, you can't but, apparently you can gear an electric motor. Pennsylvania's GG-1s came in passenger (around 100MPH) and freight gearing (Around 80MPH). Electro-motive's switchers and road locomotives rode on the same trucks, but the switchers were geared down. the Tesla's ratio (only one ratio) is probably closer to freight gearing, relative to, say, an F430. It'll run out of steam on straights longer than 1/4 mile, especially if said straight comes out of a relatively fast turn. Drag races really only prove a small bit of automotive performance.

and exotics aren't really that great of drag cars anyway. Try beating a 10-second Nova. :3
 
Jim Prower
No, you can't but, apparently you can gear an electric motor. Pennsylvania's GG-1s came in passenger (around 100MPH) and freight gearing (Around 80MPH). Electro-motive's switchers and road locomotives rode on the same trucks, but the switchers were geared down. the Tesla's ratio (only one ratio) is probably closer to freight gearing, relative to, say, an F430. It'll run out of steam on straights longer than 1/4 mile, especially if said straight comes out of a relatively fast turn. Drag races really only prove a small bit of automotive performance.
Click to expand...

How would you gear an electric motor? A CVT? certainly fixed ratios would be problematic given the nature of the torque curve. Maybe they would make it with just one ratio?
 
Well, apparently the torque curve's flatter than I first thought, But, now, remembering my electric motor design class, it drops suddenly and quickly beyond it's "working RPM," like a speed limiter (Except downhill, which is what Dynamic Brakes are for). so the gearing is direct to the wheels. I apologize for the confusion.
 
Would it be possible to run an electric motor through a transmission like a petrol engine? I was on a FIRST robotics team back in high school and we had a two speed transmission on drill motors for our robot the would also shift on the fly without having to come to a stop. If a bunch of kids could figure it out I'm sure some engineers could do much better.
 
You could, but if you gear the top end high enough, you should be able to get decent accelleration at the low end (there the motor draws the most amperage, which may affect mileage in stop-and-go driving...then again, you get it back in regenerative braking,) while having good enough highway speed for driving. I'd be wary if you took it to the Nurburgring, though...any corner above 100MPH, (Assuming the Volt has a top end of 130 or so) and you'll be hard-pressed to keep up with other cars on exit. Gearing an electric motor for 200MPH would require a bigger motor. like a traction motor off the French TGV.

Back to the GG1 example: New Jersey Transit ran a freight-geared GG1 with steam heat for their commuter services, for the better accelleration between stations, since the traction motors were the same.

Okay, that may be overkill, but you get the picture: taller gears need bigger motors.
 
I don't really think GM is looking to make a sports car out of the Volt though, they are trying to show that hyrbids and electric cars can look good and be massed produced. If they do a sporty model it won't be for a couple years after production once they work all the kinks out of it...and you know it will have kinks.
 
True, and, even then, it won't be considered a "Driver's car," really more of a commuting appliance.

the more I stop thinking about it as a perfromance car, the more I like it. not that i'd ever drive one.
 
I like the idea of having a sports model although I would have no idea how to implement it with power output. I mean you could change the gearing around and what not but I'm not that good with electric motor working to know what to do.

As I've said though put a nice suspension on it and maybe make it lighter and you'd have something fun and economical to play around with.
 
You want a Volt? That'll be $40,000.

Autoblog
Wired magazine got in the queue for some face time with Bob Lutz at the Detroit Auto Show, and came back with a quote that's raised a few brows. When asked what the target market for the car would be, Lutz said "I don't know. You'd like to have it at about $30,000 for the customer, but what I'm hearing from the team is we're not going to get there.... f it costs closer to 40 than 30, well, that's too bad."

The issue is the timeline. His engineering team said that if they had more time they could cost-optimize the car, but Lutz doesn't want to wait for that. As for the recent go-round about when the Volt would appear, November 2010 is such a firm deadline in his mind that when it comes to the internal team, his only question is: "What is there about November 2010 that you don't understand?"

Lutz must know how important it will be to price this car competitively. A $40,000 Volt before you start checking options boxes will do a lot to keep people looking elsewhere for green options. For Lutz, though, the Volt -- like the moon landing -- is much about prestige, saying, "If it doesn't work, it's not fatal. But if it does work, it will be sensational." It is also just as much about a return to the kind of design and technological form that the marque hasn't seen in a long time. "GM's credibility is rapidly returning and it's beginning to be reflected in the marketplace.," Lutz said, "ut there is no doubt you'd like to be able to leapfrog Toyota and come out with a car they aren't ready to do. There's nothing magic about the technology. Two or three years after the Volt is introduced, everybody will have something like it. We'd just like to be first for once."

[Source: Wired]
Click to expand...


Wow. Great attitude, Bob:rolleyes:. I wonder what made him take this attitude. Maybe they couldn't get the price low enough? It seems GM has started to slide backwards again with the cars that were supposed to save them being disappointments and now GM's big new thing being "Maybe a success, but it won't hurt if it doesn't work and we don't care if somebody else makes a fortune off of our efforts." maybe they are just doing it for the CAFE standards.

I think $40,000 is going to be too much for the people who will want a green car. It probably won't pick up any Prius potentials, which is what they probably should be aiming for price-wise. I'm sure they could draw quite a few customers who would otherwise find themselves in a Prius if the Volt ran for $30,000.
 
Oh. EPIC FAIL. That's really too bad: it would've been nice if it cost less, but still, most cars that are this experimental never make it past the $50,000 range, and it helps that this is a major automaker's project.
 
philly cheese
I wonder what made him take this attitude.
Click to expand...
He is Bob God-Damned Lutz, that why. He is like the Stan Lee of the automotive industry (which is a reference I expect very little to get).
 
Toronado
He is Bob God-Damned Lutz, that why. He is like the Stan Lee of the automotive industry (which is a reference I expect very little to get).
Click to expand...

Bob Lutz created Superman? (or is it Spiderman?)
 
Toronado
He is Bob God-Damned Lutz, that why. He is like the Stan Lee of the automotive industry (which is a reference I expect very little to get).
Click to expand...

Exactly. I really don't think Bob gives a damn what the press or the people think, hes the guy that is told to get something done, and almost always delivers on everything. His projects are his projects, and he won't have people fudging them up...

If its $40K, I don't think its the end of the world. The Prius may be the "cheapest" hybrid made available, but as the most-efficent and certainly the most-green car, that should still bring in a lot of buyers.
 
I highly doubt a lot of buyers will be willing to drop 40k on a Chevy compact car when the Prius will be insanely cheaper. Not to mention the Chevy is only the more green car if you're heading to the store and back. Oh well, I'm not surprised there's still optimism, with a target delay and now a huge sticker. As long as it isn't a Toyota, heavens!

And surely I'm not the only one who thinks the moon landing comparison is a huge faux pas? "If it doesn't work, it's not fatal". :lol:.
 
Will the Prius plug-in really be that much cheaper? I haven't heard much from Toyota about it in a while other than that they don't think GM's system is good or will work well, or whatever. I don't doubt that the two cars will be rivals, there is no question there, but its more or less a race to see who can do it first... And then, who can do it best. All of this of course on a large scale with practical applications for the average consumer.

I have no doubt in my mind that the next-generation Prius will be one for the ages, and the battle royale between it an the Volt shall be of EPIC proportions. Of course, I'm rooting for the home-team and the "we can build it in Detroit" attitude, but really, shouldn't every American?
 
I'd rather spend $40k on a GM product that seems to be quite good all around than $30k on a Toyota product that is completely rubbish (Prius). Its just that simple. The Volt may not be "sporty" by our standards but its infinitely sporty-ier than any of Toyota's current models.
 
JCE
I'd rather spend $40k on a GM product that seems to be quite good all around than $30k on a Toyota product that is completely rubbish (Prius). Its just that simple. The Volt may not be "sporty" by our standards but its infinitely sporty-ier than any of Toyota's current models.
Click to expand...

Do you have the extra $10,000 that it will cost you? I'm thinking that most people will buy the Prius because they simply cannot afford the premium of the Volt. If people didn't buy only what they could afford and bought the best they could, the streets would be littered with BMW 3-ers.

If you had the money, yes, I would assume everybody would buy the Volt. A lot of people don't have the money so a lot of people will buy the Prius.
 
Regarding high end speeds...

Who here regularly takes their "drive around and have a little fun in" car, or "daily" car over 85 Mph often?

If you do, do you live in the U.S., and if you still do, who is your lawyer, and how did he manage to keep your license intact/you out of jail? He sounds amazing.
 
philly cheese
If you had the money, yes, I would assume everybody would buy the Volt. A lot of people don't have the money so a lot of people will buy the Prius.
Click to expand...
People that have Prius money (you know, paying full-size car prices for a compact car) are generally well off enough that they turned down more expensive cars to buy it. The Prius is hardly a car of the people.
Besides, this won't compete with the Prius, and will presumably compete with whatever plug-in hybrid Toyota has been hinting at.
 
Onikaze
Regarding high end speeds...

Who here regularly takes their "drive around and have a little fun in" car, or "daily" car over 85 Mph often?

If you do, do you live in the U.S., and if you still do, who is your lawyer, and how did he manage to keep your license intact/you out of jail? He sounds amazing.
Click to expand...

objection.gif


There ARE highways in this country where 80MPH speeds are rather common, usually near major metropolitan areas during non-rush hour times. This practice is especially common in states with 70-75 MPH speed limits.
 
Between Lansing and Detroit, what I occasionally call "the dead zone," the speed limits are posted at 70 MPH, but most travel at something closer to 90 MPH...
 
We usually get the same kind of thing happening between here and Grand Rapids. At home, 80 is the most you will ever see at about 10 at night outside the city. You will usually be at 70 or 40 if you time it wrong.
 
Jim Prower
There ARE highways in this country where 80MPH speeds are rather common, usually near major metropolitan areas during non-rush hour times.
Click to expand...
For example, I've never been anywhere in Maryland on a highway that people were going under 80 (well, unless they were on the side of the road on fire). And I'm sure Texas is the same way.
 
Toronado
For example, I've never been anywhere in Maryland on a highway that people were going under 80 (well, unless they were on the side of the road on fire). And I'm sure Texas is the same way.
Click to expand...

I heard Texas either did or was thinking about raising their speed limits to 85:sick:.
 
They did, but they haven't built the roads designed for the speed limit yet.
 
At start on a cold day, anyway, I guess.
 
Are they talking a start in the Michigan winter after you've been running a while or a start when the engine is cold like having just pulled out of the driveway?
 
Cold start, I assume, is starting the engine without having it running beforehand for a long period of time. The engine isn't warmed up, essentially.

====

What GM is talking about is the fact that their plug-in concept will be able to run on the electric motors alone for 40 miles, or until the charge is completely drained, before the engine is forced to do a cold-start and power the electric motors. The gas/diesel/bio-fuel/hydrogen engine does not power the wheels, the electric motors do.

So, compared to say a Toyota Prius, this GM version is much more fuel efficent in that the engine is running less-often. With the Prius, the engine shuts off when you come to a stop, however, after exceeding 25-30 MPH (I'm not sure what it is?), the gas engine comes back on to help move the car through the transmission. So, unlike the GM thingamajig, the Prius is able to drive the car with the electric motor or the gas motor (speeds higher than 30 MPH) or both (electric motors assist in acceleration).

Its talking about stuff that seems like one would know about anyway. There are too many variations on these systems to go into the greatest amount of detail on each, but yeah, they all have their own benefits. Per the way I've understood it:

GM's Single-Mode < Toyota's HSD (shared with Nissan), Ford's System (whatever its called) < GM's Two-Mode (Shared with Chrysler, BMW and?) < GM's E-Flex
 
Back