Clutch, still an utter joke!

  • Thread starter ApexVGear
  • 71 comments
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We're talking about polyphony, not some company that actually cares about their customers.

Look, in a fraction of the time they used to make that moon thing, they could have fixed the clutch.

It looks like they programmed the game so it can only manage two axis (throttle and brake), because the clutch really feels like a button. The issue might come from here, and if it is, it's likely they're never gonna get it fixed.
 
MuoNiuLa
Forcing you into neutral when you mess up isn't good. It's annoying and unnecessary and that's what I hate about it.

Other games do it better, like Forza Horizon. Just like GT6, that game doesn't have mechanical damage but it still has a better clutch model. If you don't shift properly in Horizon, the car briefly stalls then keeps going. That's how it should be in GT6. The game punishes you too much for not being 100% precise.
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I rarely miss and hit neutral, but it does happen. When it does, stay calm and let the rpms fall before trying to stick it back in gear. I can correct the problem with the about same penalty of Forza's temporary stall. The problem I've observed is when the player frantically, and repeatedly slams the car into gear while staying on the throttle and keeping the car at redline. Then they complain that its messed up. Well, so are your synchros and shift forks.

In the same manner that the player has to learn to cope with not having acceleration forces exerted on their body, you have to learn to cope without physical mechanical linkages and their capabilities in your shifter. Stay calm. It works as it should.
 
lmracer
I rarely miss and hit neutral, but it does happen. When it does, stay calm and let the rpms fall before trying to stick it back in gear. I can correct the problem with the about same penalty of Forza's temporary stall. The problem I've observed is when the player frantically, and repeatedly slams the car into gear while staying on the throttle and keeping the car at redline. Then they complain that its messed up. Well, so are your synchros and shift forks.

In the same manner that the player has to learn to cope with not having acceleration forces exerted on their body, you have to learn to cope without physical mechanical linkages and their capabilities in your shifter. Stay calm. It works as it should.
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In real life, I have never driven a car with the clutch pedal disengage/engage point near the floor like it is in GT5-6 (except on a car with a failing clutch master cylinder).

This isn't about learning to cope with mechanical linkages, etc. There aren't any in GT5-6. Drivers, consumers, purchasers of the game, purchasers of $400+ wheel peripherals, long-time fans of Gran Turismo that were excited to hear a clutch was being added before GT5 Prologue was released...

We shouldn't have to learn to "cope" with a flawed and totally unrealistic feature of a game that inhibits us from enjoying our decision and investment to increase the realism of Gran Turismo, especially something that is an integral part of our interaction with it. It becomes a barrier, it's a reminder that you can't operate the clutch and shift like you can in most other simulators with that feature.

There isn't a clutch model that's perfect or totally realistic, but in Forza 4 for example, there is a feeling of sync and drag in the transmission, not just an "on off" point at the very bottom of the pedal travel, like it is in GT5. Also, because of the apparent "throttle pedal rules" imposed by Kazunori and PD (or they were just too "lazy" to address this), downshifting is even more unrealistic, and you have to "coast" to downshift, whereas in real life, you're syncing revs to the downshifts for smooth deceleration and car control into the turn.

As I've stated before, when you combine Gran Turismo's setup of the clutch with the "penalty" of IT shifting into neutral and getting free engine revs, it just compounds the problem even more.

Because of this, when I want to "enjoy" driving a car, that in real life has a manual transmission and clutch (older Corvette, Sauber C9, Mazda 787B), Gran Turismo feels like a clunky out-dated VIDEO GAME, and not a simulator--even if I have "coped" with it and am getting "valid shifts" according to Gran Turismo's alternate unreality.
 
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mister dog
Kaz would like you to know that they are aware of the situation, and that they might patch it somewhere in the future.
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I certainly appreciate the post, and please forgive me if I don't know who you are...

Do you have some kind of "communication line" with Kazunori, work with him, been to a recent interview or press conference... or read an official statement from him in regards to the clutch?

Please post any reference to this if you have it.

Just want to know--if this is "valid" I could certainly get excited about hearing this.

I launched GT6 again this morning, and am enjoying as much as I can, but I would love to start this "second go around" in GT6, with the same "grind" that I did in GT5, with a fixed clutch... AND VERY SOON.

I might even put GT6 away for now and just wait until I hear the update that fixes it is ready for download.
 
ApexVGear
I certainly appreciate the post, and please forgive me if I don't know who you are...

Do you have some kind of "communication line" with Kazunori, work with him, been to a recent interview or press conference... or read an official statement from him in regards to the clutch?

Please post any reference to this if you have it.

Just want to know--if this is "valid" I could certainly get excited about hearing this.

I launched GT6 again this morning, and am enjoying as much as I can, but I would love to start this "second go around" in GT6, with the same "grind" that I did in GT5, with a fixed clutch... AND VERY SOON.

I might even put GT6 away for now and just wait until I hear the update that fixes it is ready for download.
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We work for an outsourced part of Polyphony as sound technicians; mainly providing samples to Japan on a continuous basis. At the Dyson convention last month (one of our biggest contributors), Kaz gave a speech and this came up.
 
I really hope this is true. I'm glad there is a thread about it, but I was thinking this issue needs its own website. Or political party. Either way, it NEEDS to get fixed, yesterday.
 
ApexVGear
In real life, I have never driven a car with the clutch pedal disengage/engage point near the floor like it is in GT5-6 (except on a car with a failing clutch master cylinder).
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This part caught my attention the most. Does your clutch only disengage when your pedal is near, or at %100 depression?

If this is true, I would totally get what your saying. It would be annoying. However, I don't experience this with my G27. My clutch's point of engagement is closer to the relaxed position than it is near the fully depressed end of it. I do most of my shifting with just a dab of clutch. maybe, 1/4 jab. You may have a calibration issue, or a failing sensor.
 
lmracer
This part caught my attention the most. Does your clutch only disengage when your pedal is near, or at %100 depression?

If this is true, I would totally get what your saying. It would be annoying. However, I don't experience this with my G27. My clutch's point of engagement is closer to the relaxed position than it is near the fully depressed end of it. I do most of my shifting with just a dab of clutch. maybe, 1/4 jab. You may have a calibration issue, or a failing sensor.
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My pedals work perfectly well with other simulators.

With GT5-6 The engage/disengage point is at about the last 75-80% of the pedal travel, near the floor, instead of up near the 25-30% point like other simulators and most real cars, especially those set up for track days or racing. It's also an on-off point, or at least feels more like that than it does in Forza 4.

I completed GT5 with a G27. I adapted, but was reminded almost every race that the clutch was flawed when I'd get a mis-shift. After racing in Forza 4 (came out after GT5) and other simulators with clutches that actually work, I'm having a hard time "re-adapting" back again, and it just frustrates and disappoints me that GT5 Prologue, GT5, GT6 Demo, and now GT6 are still using pretty much the same setup (though it was "updated" in GT5--very very very slightly, but not fixed).

If people are posting about it in forums (there's another 7-page thread here), and interviewers are asking Kazunori about it, and when it will be fixed, it's obvious there's something wrong.
 
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I understand. Now that I'm thinking about it more, starting out in first from a stop was a bit tricky with powerful cars due to exactly what you are saying; the clutch engages too soon from bottom. But not every shift should require a deep depression to work. I almost never give it a deeper push that 1/4 depression. But, Its all subjective to an individuals expectations. Ideally, the clutch would have more weight, and a two-stage resistance curve. But it don't. It feels a numb as my real car. (which I hate. New cars tend to have an overly dampened clutch. I want more resistance)

I'm only defending that it isn't as bad as the sensationalists of this forum like to claim. Thats not a personal attack, but its not "broken" as I see so often said. I'd love to try other set ups, I've only used Logitech's offerings.
 
Here's a question for anyone that would like to contribute.

In addition to your view and feelings about whether the Gran Turismo clutch is good or not, do a quick "test" with your clutch pedal and report back your estimate (or measurements if you feel so inclined) of where the "grab point" is on your pedals. Is it closer to the floor, or up higher up where it should be.

Also, be sure to state which brand of pedals you are using, and if they've been modified in any way.

In summary, there's four problems with the Gran Turismo clutch.

1. Clutch engage point is too low (or is it just my pedals?).

2. The clutch pedal should have more of an "analogue" feel to it, just like a real spring-loaded clutch plate. Other simulators don't replicate this perfectly, but Gran Turismo feels like a hard on off switch, and it can often cause you to loose control, especially during downshifts.

3. One of the "rules" (apparently) is that you must lift off the gas pedal, almost completely, to register a valid shift. This is totally unrealistic, and can cause problems during rev-matching and downshifts were you want to keep the engine revs up to avoid differential drag or lock.

4. The big one--The transmission goes into neutral if you don't follow the "rules" of Gran Turismo (which can be hard to do because of the problems above), rather than grind and delay the power for a brief moment. If the stick is in a slot, Gran Turismo should be in the corresponding gear, NO MATTER WHAT, perfect shift, or mis-shift with a grind and a delay.
 
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Somehow I automatically thought they would've fixed this HUGE **** up, but seeing how they haven't fixed it, I'm leaving GT6 on the shelves for now.. I didn't spent almost 400 euro for my wheel and everything, for it to be working horribly on a DRIVING simulator
 
I remember when GT5 was brand new, I started playing it with my G25 and the clutch engament was totally different, much better than what it is now in the later patched versions of GT5 and GT6. You could power shift with ease. Back then the consensus was that people driving with a clutch had an advantage over people driving with a normal controller so the game was patched making the clutch the abomination it is now.
 
mario_rt_tmx
I remember when GT5 was brand new, I started playing it with my G25 and the clutch engament was totally different, much better than what it is now in the later patched versions of GT5 and GT6. You could power shift with ease. Back then the consensus was that people driving with a clutch had an advantage over people driving with a normal controller so the game was patched making the clutch the abomination it is now.
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If inside sim guys who play every sim title out there say gt6 clutch is the worst how can there stil be douters it dont function properly try forza4 s clutcch its like being born again
 
Moldyplum
If inside sim guys who play every sim title out there say gt6 clutch is the worst how can there stil be douters it dont function properly try forza4 s clutcch its like being born again
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I'm not defending the Gran Turismo clutch here. I have said my piece on it in this thread. But the Inside Sim Racing guys are not the be all and end all of everything sim racing. In fact some of what the say is total and utter rubbish. So just my 2 cents, just because they said it, doesn't make it the truth. E.g. yes its rubbish, but he missed 20 shifts in one run? Exaggerated, as I would expect from them.

ISR = Easily swayed, biased and sometimes quite nasty. (Check Darin's iRacing rants, 90% of the time he is in the wrong and rages at other people).

The clutch fix for GT would be simple. Make it analogue, simulate a bite point and allow throttle on during shifts.
 
I wonder if Kaz is surrounded by "yes men".. like he lives in an information bubble, where no negative GT info gets through? Maybe he doesn't know the clutch is broken. I bet he's never even tried the game with a clutch and gated shifter.


ApexVGear
Here's a question for anyone that would like to contribute.

In addition to your view and feelings about whether the Gran Turismo clutch is good or not, do a quick "test" with your clutch pedal and report back your estimate (or measurements if you feel so inclined) of where the "grab point" is on your pedals. Is it closer to the floor, or up higher up where it should be.

Also, be sure to state which brand of pedals you are using, and if they've been modified in any way.

In summary, there's four problems with the Gran Turismo clutch.

1. Clutch engage point is too low (or is it just my pedals?).

2. The clutch pedal should have more of an "analogue" feel to it, just like a real spring-loaded clutch plate. Other simulators don't replicate this perfectly, but Gran Turismo feels like a hard on off switch, and it can often cause you to loose control, especially during downshifts.

3. One of the "rules" (apparently) is that you must lift off the gas pedal, almost completely, to register a valid shift. This is totally unrealistic, and can cause problems during rev-matching and downshifts were you want to keep the engine revs up to avoid differential drag or lock.

4. The big one--The transmission goes into neutral if you don't follow the "rules" of Gran Turismo (which can be hard to do because of the problems above), rather than grind and delay the power for a brief moment. If the stick is in a slot, Gran Turismo should be in the corresponding gear, NO MATTER WHAT, perfect shift, or mis-shift with a grind and a delay.
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You forgot a huge problem.. It always goes to N when wheels are spinning. Haven't you ever noticed that one?
 
Well call me the pessimist here, but I had no hopes that PD would fix the clutch problem. It was sooooooooo bad in GT5 that they either never tested it once, or they didn't care. Nobody testing it could have ever thought it was anything resembling correct.

Too bad Microsoft pulled a typical MS move and made the X-Box incompatible with wheels designed for everything else in the world. Until I can use my existing very expensive wheels on an X-Box it will be PC and PS3 sims only for me. Too bad, as Forza sounds like it would be fun.
 
9ql155.png
 
I can confirm that the clutch/shifter works perfectly with the BMW M4 even to the point of making synchronizer sounds on down shifts. This strongly suggests that PD is making changes to the clutch/shifter model but that it must be on a car by car basis as opposed to a clutch/shifter model that they apply to all the cars.
 
RReed43
I can confirm that the clutch/shifter works perfectly with the BMW M4 even to the point of making synchronizer sounds on down shifts. This strongly suggests that PD is making changes to the clutch/shifter model but that it must be on a car by car basis as opposed to a clutch/shifter model that they apply to all the cars.
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BMW M4 Seasonal TT: Even if the clutch is used it, will only register as gated box, no clutch.
Same was true for the 2012 end-of-year Vette Prototype Seasonal TT on Nordschleife.

As per The Auto Channel's SPECIAL INSIDE LOOK: BMW M4 Technology + Video

The engine is combined with a six-speed manual gearbox as standard...It ‘blips’ the throttle when downshifting; a feature previously unique for the M Double Clutch Transmission.

Optionally available will be the 7-speed M DCT with integrated Launch Control.
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Dual Clutch Transmission (DCT) Wikipedia:
They are usually operated in a fully automatic mode, and many also have the ability to allow the driver to manually shift gears albeit still carried out by the transmission's electro-hydraulics.
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As for the clutch in GT6, works for me (T500 + TH8RS).
Had no problems beating Tsukuba and Matterhorn TT Seasonal gold times by a few seconds.
Quite a few people on my FR list do the same.

Would be nice to figure out why it works for a few, but not for most.
 
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You forgot :gtplanet::gtpflag:



panjandrum
Well call me the pessimist here, but I had no hopes that PD would fix the clutch problem. It was sooooooooo bad in GT5 that they either never tested it once, or they didn't care. Nobody testing it could have ever thought it was anything resembling correct.
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Regardless of how wrong it remains to be, they did make changes to how it worked towards the end of GT5's life, so at least the possibility exists that it could be changed. I can't remember what patch did it, else I'd be able to find the thread talking about it; but it was the bite point that they changed I believe.
 
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You are correct, it is just a gated box and the clutch doesn't work at all.

PD really needs to get there act together as it is hard to call yourself "the real driving simulator" when you don't even implement a working clutch.
 
The clutch model is still terrible in GT. The only time I use the clutch is to hot lap for fun, and the first mis-shift ruins the fun. I drive a manual every day, and my entire time at GT Academy I missed 1 shift when I mis-aligned the gate from 2nd to 3rd. I miss shifts at least 2-3 times a lap because of GT's shifting "rules"

Another example of the "ultimate driving simulator" with one of the biggest budgets in gaming falling on their faces again. Pretty pathetic.
 

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