Competitors and Viewers Criticize Stewarding at FIA GT Championship's Nurburgring World Tour

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by GTPNewsWire, Jul 1, 2019.

  1. Dodge Lamb

    Dodge Lamb

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    The Supra is an everything car lol

    Also I would say for gr4 Sardegna B is a power track, there's not enough corners for the 86 to excel in to make up any pace. Any passes it makes can easily be mopped back up on both long straights.
     
  2. WiseGuyTM

    WiseGuyTM

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    Yeah the Supra is just kinda dumb. Polyphony seems strongly against changing bop in the middle of a FIA season, even though every major Motorsports series with it changes it almost every race. Instead they just make rash changes before the season and go with it. They single handily wiped all 4 American cars off the map with a single update (not calling bias, but I think it was funny that all 4 got the exact same changes, and all 4 died because of it). Right now, there are like 4-5 competitive manufacturers in gr.3, and in gr.4 there are even less, because the tiny cars dominate with there lack of tire wear. And so they compensated fwd cars with stupid straight line speed. PD needs to get some actual bop specialists from the FIA to straighten this out, because it’s kinda ridiculous imo.




    Edit: In gr.4 there are a couple power cars that work, notably the Lexus. But I think the best car all-around might be the Porsche, as it has most of the tiny-car benefits without the abismal straight line performance
     
  3. Dodge Lamb

    Dodge Lamb

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    Ironically, it's the FR cars in gr4 that are doing the best right now. The physics update really hurt MR cars and, as a result, cars like the 4C and Cayman have strangely more mid-to-corner exit understeer. They turn in at slightly faster speeds but exit at even or slower, with a complete lack of power. Alfa Romeo in particular went from an OP gr4 and average gr3 to mediocre gr4 and terrible gr3. I will say that Dodge is in an embarrassing spot right now.

    I just can't wait to go to New York and be dead last with my poo cars that got trashed xD

    Also edit just to point out that tire wear is too low for the low wear cars to ink out any advantages. It's "get passed at every straight and held up in the corners" that makes these cars suffer.
     
  4. WiseGuyTM

    WiseGuyTM

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    Yeah, I heard about that. PD did a really drastic physics change rather than addressing the issue at hand. There were a handful of mr cars that were too slippery (Ferrari gr.3, Lamborghini gr.3, etc.) but surely nothing in gr.4 was having traction issues out of corners. Polyphony overreacted. Again. If you own the Vulcan in GT, drive it. It legit has the worst brakes in the entire game. Why? Because they wanted to put the thing in the n classes, but then it would be OP as hell, do they made it frustrating to drive by giving it wet sponges for brakes. Sometimes I wonder what’s happening in Kaz’s head...

    Edit: wow the meta changed again? Last time I put effort into FIA it was all about tire wear. Cars like the 4c were doing no stops that would be impossible for me in my S.S. Corvette to pull of on even the hardest of tire. Crazy how you stop caring for a couple of months and you come back to find a completely different game in your disk drive.
     
  5. watto79

    watto79

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    I partially agree with you on this one. Going into turn 1 the Mercedes actually starts turning in early and hits the Lexus. This is what knocks the Mercedes wide and is now way off line for the second part of the chicane. They almost go off the track completely.

    So it was poor driving by the Mercedes to end up in that position BUT it does look to me that they slow down as much as possible to take the tightest possible line around the second part of the chicane. Short of stopping the car the Mercedes was always going to be on the apex which is where the contact happens that spins the Lexus.

    While I believe this was all 100% down to the Mercedes, if the Lexus driver had been a bit more aware of what was going on around them they could have just taken a wider line (as you say), avoided the contact and would likely have been home free with the Mercedes getting in everyone else's way at the corner exit.

    I would add that it is very easy for us to judge these situations from the comfort of our homes watching replays on YouTube. The pressure of being at a live event with everyone watching, wanting to not let your team down etc. must be huge. Especially going into turn 1 at Monza! In this incident I don't think anyone did anything on purpose and the Lexus team were really unlucky considering how well they were doing.
     
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  6. Kano Manel

    Kano Manel Premium

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    Yep... I can see the problem. A thread about stewarding and penalties, but people is talking about understeer in the cars, which seems to me as though nobody gives a damn about clean racing.

    Meanwhile in ACC...
     
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  7. George Jakob

    George Jakob

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    I agree about the damage but whats the big deal about the suggested gear thingy?. They don't use it anyway.
     
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  8. daan

    daan Moderator

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    I blame both drivers for the Merc/Lexus/Monza T1 incident. The Merc tried to turn in for the first part even though the Lexus was there, then the Lexus aimed for the apex of the left even though the Merc was there.
     
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  9. Cerebral303

    Cerebral303

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    I am glad there is further discussion on this, as it really does put a dent in what are otherwise fantastic races that I look forwards to watching.

    One thing in the article I remember thinking at the time of the incident was "Rubilar had already qualified for the World Finals by way of winning the event in Paris, which poses a question of why he was there in any case"

    My thoughts since then are - perhaps if a driver had to sit out the intervening tournements after they gained a place in the final, they would gain less experience of those specific high pressure conditions and be at a disadvantage to players who qualified later and got to take part in more competitions and had more recent experience of them too.

    That said, perhaps PD could look at punishing already qualified drivers more severely if their actions affect other drivers chances since there is a moral hazard there.
     
    NosOsH likes this.
  10. VBR

    VBR Premium

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    Does anyone know who these "stewards" are? I mean, are they PD employees with no previous experience; or are they real world stewards provided by the FIA; or maybe a mix of both, or something else entirely? All this talk of inconsistency makes me wonder...
     
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  11. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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    To a degree I concur, but putting them in a position where they can affect other people's qualification while not having any consequences of their own to deal with seems unwise.

    Perhaps a guaranteed slot in the Toyota GR Supra GT Cup race, or in the Manufacturer Series - both of which serve an exhibition purpose in the World Tour events, with physical prizes but nothing else at stake - would be better?
     
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  12. Winnie847

    Winnie847

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    Thanks for the input guys.

    I watched it again several times and have come to the conclusion that it was two separate incidents.

    Yes, the Merc does turn in on the Lexus....a little. They may have almost gone off track but they didn’t. The contact was light, it was side by side, and the Lexus was still able to take a nearly optimal line through the first turn.

    The cars then separate and head toward the 2nd part of the chicane. The Merc is as wide as possible heading toward the next apex, which then becomes a tight inside line. He wasn’t side by side, but there was overlap. The Lexus knew the Merc was there because the Merc was just ahead of him heading into T1. The Merc was already approaching T2 slowly because he knew the Lexus would be occupying the outside, so it would have been impossible to use the whole track on exit. If the Merc braked more, he would have been pushed from behind. All he could do was hug the inside and hope the Lexus gave him a car’s width like he’s supposed to, but didn’t.

    So yes the Merc caused the initial contact through the right hander, but it didn’t result in a crash or a significant loss of time for either party. The Lexus then decides it has the right to the entire track and tries to occupy space where the Merc already existed, even though he could have gone wider and still had a better exit than the Merc which would have salvaged the position.

    So two incidents. One resulted in nothing, the other caused a crash and took two cars out of the race. If someone is alongside of you through a corner, you leave room, plain and simple...unless you’re Max Verstappen!

    Even though it may seem like it, I’m not trying to talk about this as if my word is matter of fact, I’m just conveying what I see in the replay. It looks like Merc almost caused a crash, then the Lexus actually did.
     
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  13. JoeyLeonine

    JoeyLeonine

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    Well, the Merc didn't really have the position. If it was ahead then the Lexus would have turned into him. But as it was the Lexus had already turned, made the apex and then got hit. So there is a certain responsibility on the Merc's shoulders for that one. From my perspective anyway.

    I agree with @watto79 that he'd probably thrown on the anchors as much as he could... that being said, if it was RL and not a game/simulation, there's no way in hell that the Merc would have just carried on into contact. Part of the overriding issue with sim-racing is the significant lack of actual physical consequence for accidents.

    The very least that needs to happen, in these Pro events, is an enhanced damage engine, that sustains. You aren't going to risk any form of contact if you know it could make your car undrivable for the rest of the race.
     
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  14. Winnie847

    Winnie847

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    I disagree. The Lexus can’t make an apex that a car is about to be on top of.

    Should the Merc have just stopped right there in the middle of the chicane?

    You could say the same thing about the Lexus IRL. He never would have turned in on the Merc knowing he’d be there occupying the inside line. Because where else did the Lexus expect the Merc to be after taking T1 side by side?

    It’s true, the Merc didn’t have the position, but he was there, and he slowed enough to stay on track and enough to maintain the inside through the exit, giving the Lexus room.

    I don’t see how any of these explanations allow for both cars to take the chicane side by side. The Merc couldn’t just stop, but the Lexus could have easily gone wider and still held the position. It seems like he just made a bad choice.
     
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  15. kilesa4568

    kilesa4568

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    I can't fault them for that and hope there's some very big names in the list. I won't be compelled to watch it every time as it won't mean anything any more.

    Give me one long race with the top 16-20 drivers in the world, all in well balanced cars and you've got a viewer for life. I'm getting really fed up of the current game (rather than talent) showcasing format and want to see who's best on that particular day.
     
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  16. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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    The Mercedes driver's opinion:
     
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  17. TheHun99

    TheHun99

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    The last screenshot was spot on from last year’s Manufacturers’ Final. I was so mad that the Subaru only got a five second penalty for ruining the race for BMW with a shockingly amateur mistake.
     
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  18. JoeyLeonine

    JoeyLeonine

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    Sorry. I got off the topic of the penalty and focussed more for the collision.

    I agree that the Lexus could have given room and was at fault for some less than considerate driving ;)

    But I would also say - yes - the Merc could have stopped. Unrealistic in racing terms, I know. I guess I'm playing devils advocate a bit here.

    But if someone cuts you up on the road, and you can stop, you don't plough on into them regardless. :lol:
     
  19. watto79

    watto79

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    I suppose in real life the Merc would wisely cut the corner to avoid all possibility of contact. They would then choose or be told to give back any positions they gained. The trouble is in GT Sport cutting the corner would translate into a certain penalty, so he has to make sure two wheels are kept in track limits.

    Not sure why we've all focused on this incident but it's interesting to talk about it!

    I think he's being hard on himself.
     
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  20. VFOURMAX1

    VFOURMAX1

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    lexus crash.jpg


    snapshot lexus 2.jpg


    The Lexus was ahead of the Merc and fully on the track, the Merc as is shown in the second picture screwed up the first section of the chicane being on the outside and actually does not even have his car aimed at the track and at the cars angle has no hope of legitimately making the corner making up the second part of the chicane and also being on what would be considered the race course through that section.

    Also before they even begin to enter the second corner in the chicanes the Merc is trailing and not up even with at least the door of the Lexus ( the reason he pit maneuvers the Lexus instead of just pushing the Lexus wide) so how does it figure the Merc has a legitimate racing line through the sector and the Lexus should give way?

    Looks to me the Merc tried to jump the outside in the 1st corner of the chicanes beginning, could not successfully pull it off and hold the lead and lost to much ground to the Lexus to have legitimate rights to an inside lane through the second part of the chicane and instead of backing down and conceding the position as he should have he forced the issue, made a racing lane actually mostly off the tracks surface and pit maneuvered the Lexus as he drove away in first place from the carnage he caused.

    Sounds like a normal Sport Mode first chicane race but that does not justify the move and make it right. Of course that is the way I see it, your mileage may vary!l
    Lot of difference in cutting a corner just to where you will not receive a penalty and trying to make a corner cut into an off the actual track surface racing line to pass a car that is actually in front of you for position and then wrecking that person!
     
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  21. WyldAnimal

    WyldAnimal

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    Heavy Damage should be On..
    Yeah, a mistake from Behind will also damage the car in front.
    But it is Incentive for the drivers to NOT make a mistake.

    as it is now,
    there is no Incentive at all, crash, bam, boom.....

    Most of us are Virtual Drivers.
    you have to know that the awareness factor, is not the same as in real life.
    depending on the driving view you are using...
    you really don't know how much along side of you the other car is.
    you can't just turn you head or look to the side with your eyes..

    Heavy damage, forces ALL of the drivers to be cautiously aggressive, knowing there is a consequence to making a mistake.

    Keep in mind, they are at the top level of the sport, they all should be better than this.

    Oh, Unless the real life racing car has it...
    No ABS, and No Traction control..

    Using the flashing Gear change Indicator, as the braking point indicator.
    vs, knowing the braking point from the on track visuals.

    the drivers should NOT have any HUD, and should all be in cockpit view.
    I'd say a custom HUD, with Gear, Tach, Speed, and Proximity sensors.
    Cockpit view, with Virtual Left side, right Side and Rear view mirrors.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 2, 2019
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  22. Voodoovaj

    Voodoovaj

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    The Merc definitely blew the corner entry of the chicane, which lead to the issue, but if I were to call it, I would let it slide because that Lexus should have anticipated the Merc would have been there.

    I blame the currently too slight time infractions for contact. A lot of contact that deserves some time (even 0.5 - 1 second) goes unaccounted for. 5 second penalties, for the most part, should be 10 seconds and it should be contact force based, not just for off track excursions. Too often, I see slight contact lead to a 5 second penalty because one driver decided to take the opportunity to go off and deal the other driver 5 seconds.

    The way we all drive comes from what is allowable in the game (without the benefit of human interference). People were FAR more cognizant of other when almost all contact resulted in some time infraction. Not that we should go to draconian time penalties, but some more would help.

    Also, when it's an algorithm, there is no human bias to argue against. You learn the system and work within it. When a person is making a judgement call, it's a debatable point, and that's always bad.
     
  23. Winnie847

    Winnie847

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    The 2nd picture shown looks like overlap to me. If you draw a line across the front bumper of the Merc towards the Lexus, that line hits the Lexus' rear quarter panel. If you were to be looking at Lexus' radar, the front of the Merc's triangle icon would have been overlapping the rear of the Lexus' icon. The reason why the Merc wasn't on the ideal racing line is because they were two-wide. Neither of them can take the ideal racing line when you go two-wide through a corner. I guess I've never been one to think that cars should get out of the way of someone else's racing line who they are contesting the corner with. Otherwise why contest any corner? The Merc realized he made a mistake by making contact through the first turn, then went extra wide to be sure not to make that same mistake again through the 2nd turn. The Lexus did not give him the same courtesy. I just think that if you know a car is going to be there, why try to put your car there too? I don't see how anybody can realistically expect the Merc to just stop right there because that would have resulted in even more carnage from behind. I don't see how the Merc "screwed up" the chicane, all he did was try to take it two-wide, which IS going to happen on lap 1 of this event no matter what. So nobody owns the racing line, you just have to give space.

    The one strongest point I can't get over here, is that if you enter a tight chicane like Monza two-wide, why would you expect to be able to exit it alone, especially with heavy traffic immediately behind?
     
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  24. force ewerby

    force ewerby

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    What I should've done is slowed down more after exiting T1 and before reaching T2 to ensure no overlap between my car and the Lexus, so he could just about pass in front of my car and I slot in behind. But I didn't do that not particularly because I thought slowing down more than usual would cause me to get hit from behind by a pack of 10 cars, but because I was so convinced I was going to overshoot T1, and so focused on getting the car stopped for T1, that in that half-second gap between T1 and T2 I simply wasn't thinking about what the Lexus was doing and whether I needed to take extra action to avoid a collision; I was just glad I'd managed to stop the car in time.

    Also, I'm not sure if this actually made a difference, and it isn't an excuse for the contact, but the screens are really big and really close to your face at these events, pushing the edges of the screen and the radar (bottom-right in bonnet view I use) further out of your vision, which is where I guess the Lexus would've been.
     
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  25. Winnie847

    Winnie847

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    I'm of the opinion that if you would have slowed down more, you would have been pushed for sure, then the people behind the car that pushed you would have pushed him, and so on. I think that would have been a worse result than what actually happened, but that's all speculation on my part.

    If nobody had been behind you, slowing down would have been the best thing to do....but I also still feel like it should have been obvious to the Lexus driver that you were going to be there and he should have given you a car's width. He would have kept the position anyway, but decided the racing line was his and his alone even though you guys took the first part of the chicane two-wide. Very humble of you to state things the way you did.
     
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  26. VFOURMAX1

    VFOURMAX1

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    I concur with that but most I think consider in closed cockpit cars that the overlap needs to be up midway with the drivers door to be considered an acceptable overlap position, this may be even with the rear wheel, but it is not close to being halfway up the door.

    And when his attempt through the first part of the chicane came up short prior to entering the second corner of the chicane he should have conceded the position. Although they are a series of corners they are still two seperate corners each with its own entrance, apex and exit.
    He did not have to stop to concede the position only ease back off the gas to where he would not cross into the line of the Lexus before the Lexus was clear.

    And this says it all, it was a mistake in judgement from the horses mouth.
    I agree that the slotting in behind would have been the best but it all happens in a split second and the heat of the moment and on that big of a stage I am sure the pressure is immense.

    I think even if you had of eased off just enough at worse you may have been battling the Porsche for 2nd but the carnage would have been avoided.
    I think you have well shown it was not malicious intent on your part something that just happened in the situation.


    We all view things differently but the way most people seem to view what is an acceptable amount overlap that would give you racing line rights that in this instance prior to entering the second corner of the chicane the amount of overlap required or needed was not met which did give the lead vehicle the right to the racing line being all his own.

    I am sure the Lexus driver would have given the Merc the position if it meant that his race for all intents and purposes would have not have ended while he was crashed out of the lead in the first series of corners in the first lap of the race.

    We will all see things differently, one of the main reasons many racing incidents end in such controversy.

    If I had of been a Steward if it had not resulted in a pit maneuver that caused the lead car to crash I would have let it go but once the crash occurred the Merc would have had a timeout down the penalty lane. But that still does nothing to fix what the Lexus lost but I guess that is racing.
     
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  27. force ewerby

    force ewerby

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    Straight from the driver briefing document, under "Situations that will incur penalties":

    "Forcing yourself into the inside of a car in front at a corner when you were not parallel
    to it already ("driving parallel" means at least 1/3 of the car behind lines up next to the
    car in front), forcing the other car to avoid you;"
     
  28. ROCKET JOE

    ROCKET JOE

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    Is it allowed to publish these special event rules completely ? ... as that would be an interesting thing :tup:.
     
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  29. Calmlity

    Calmlity

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    Much or less it helps the player's lap time be consistent. So why haven't we received the option to turn it off after the arrival of three updates if I'm not misremembered?
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2019
  30. force ewerby

    force ewerby

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    I don't see why we wouldn't be allowed to share the page about penalties, but at the same time I don't really want to be the one who does it lol.
     
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