Control pad DS3 quicker than Steering Wheel

[Johnnypenso]

It's a shame they don't do pedals you can use with a controller. My consistency would go back up when I'm pushing it, get a bit more rhythm going and hopefully, better times. They don't make them though. I'm just dreaming.

Not sure how popular that would be but it's actually a good idea and I think such a thing is possible on PC since you can plug in the pedals via USB as a standalone device so there's no reason it can't also be done on console as it's only an input device. It would actually open up a whole new market for inexpensive pedals like those found on the DFGT or the T300. I bought my DFGT for $99 so the pedals alone should retail for $29-39 as a standalone.


It'll never happen...but it's nice to dream

 

[kilesa4568]

I had a look round to see if anyone had done a ghetto mod with pedals linked to the controller but had no luck.

I found a different sort of controller that might fit the bill with regards better brake and accelerator controls. It looks a bit odd but it got reasonable reviews for racing games. It's called the HKS Racing controller:

http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/3725/quick_review_hks_ps3_racing_dual_shock_controller/index.html

GT5 lap at 5:58:



It looks like there's a learning curve to it and the wheel looks seriously gimmicky as well as the digital read out for the force. The pedal/button/trigger thingies look feasible though.

I'm not going to buy one. Just thought it was an interesting concept.

 

[ZBAT]

Anyone notice this...

No, and this is a absurdly ambiguous question.

 

[MidFieldMaven]

With a wheel, I could probably reduce my own best laps by at least a full second. With a DS3, gas and brake are basically on/off like a light-switch, unless you have excellent finger control and can modulate buttons as you would pedals.

 

[PJTierney]

One thing I found while playing last night was that the stick deadzones for the DS3 are quite a bit away from the limit of how far you can push a stick physically.

I was driving the Volkswagen VGT and stopped on circuit before switching to cockpit view. As I pushed the left stick the driver's hands would move (naturally). By the time I was at about 80-85% of "push" left or right, the driver would not turn the wheel any further.

I don't know if this is purely a quirk of the animation or if the actual limit of steering is the same, but if it is then the sticks are even less sensitive than I initially expected them to be.

It's a shame we can't set the stick/throttle deadzones like we could on Forza Motorsport 4 (screenshot from Forza 5, although the settings are the same), as the current setup puts a lot of extra travel on both the sticks and triggers to waste. It's part of the reason that the average wheel user can get more out of a car than the average DS3 user.

 

[Johnnypenso]

One thing I found while playing last night was that the stick deadzones for the DS3 are quite a bit away from the limit of how far you can push a stick physically.

I was driving the Volkswagen VGT and stopped on circuit before switching to cockpit view. As I pushed the left stick the driver's hands would move (naturally). By the time I was at about 80-85% of "push" left or right, the driver would not turn the wheel any further.

I don't know if this is purely a quirk of the animation or if the actual limit of steering is the same, but if it is then the sticks are even less sensitive than I initially expected them to be.

It's a shame we can't set the stick/throttle deadzones like we could on Forza Motorsport 4 (screenshot from Forza 5, although the settings are the same), as the current setup puts a lot of extra travel on both the sticks and triggers to waste. It's part of the reason that the average wheel user can get more out of a car than the average DS3 user.

That's quite a find actually, I wasn't aware of that. You should test it on a few other cars and see if the deadzone holds true. I wonder if other DS3 users are aware of that?

 

[reserv0ird0g4]

Wheels are faster and here's the common sense reason why; on the controller pad you have accelerator and break on the same stick, so when applying the brakes the engine is no longer revving as high and visa versa. On the other hand with the wheel, you have the fluidity to be applying both brakes and accelerator simultaneously just like in real life. With the engine revving a little higher when you let off the brakes and exit a corner your exit speeds are increased ever so slightly which accounts for those tenths and hundredths of second quicker lap times.

 

[squadops]

Why not both?

 

[Pseudopod]

Wheels are faster and here's the common sense reason why; on the controller pad you have accelerator and break on the same stick, so when applying the brakes the engine is no longer revving as high and visa versa. On the other hand with the wheel, you have the fluidity to be applying both brakes and accelerator simultaneously just like in real life. With the engine revving a little higher when you let off the brakes and exit a corner your exit speeds are increased ever so slightly which accounts for those tenths and hundredths of second quicker lap times.

No. I never managed to get used to accelerating and braking with the stick, so I used the pressure sensitive face buttons for that. Later, I felt that I needed more precision, and changed it to left/right triggers. The problem however, is that the springs in these are a bit hard, and combined with the shape of the triggers, that makes my lower arm muscles ache after a while. For a few laps however, it is fine. A DS4's triggers are a lot better. There are also third party controllers that might be better.

 

[CSLACR]

In two of the Nurb TT's from GT5, the first place DS3 users were about 5 and 10 seconds back respectively. DS3 users do better in some TT's than others and sometimes one or two squeak into the top ten and even win one here and there, but overwhelmingly wheels completely dominate the top 100-200, to the point where in a couple of TT's at least, there were no DS3 users in the top 100.

While there are exceptions here and there, even though wheel users were only around 20% of GT5 players, they routinely made up 80-90% of the top 100 in nearly every TT. That's a lot more than a couple of tenths difference, on average.

But is that because of the input method, or because those wheel users were already better?
It doesn't sound like coincidence that the diehard users (which are more inclined to spend money on a wheel) would run faster laps.


For what it's worth to the thread, I was D1Silver with a DS3, and D1Silver with a wheel.
It wasn't until after more significant practice at hot lapping during GT5 (with a wheel) that I eventually achieved D1Gold in GT6.
You could argue that after I grew accustomed to the wheel, it gained me a hair and pushed me up a level, or you could argue the intensive practice and driving in GT5 (unlike any driving I'd ever done with a DS3) is the culprit.

 

[Pseudopod]

Also gotta remember that the nurburgring is very long. You should really use percentages for this stuff.

Assuming a lap time of 6 minutes for the wheel user, 10 more seconds amounts to 2% more time, 5 seconds would be 1% more. The ring is also one of the most technical tracks in the game, so gamepads might have a bigger disadvantage here than on some other tracks.

 

[PJTierney]

You should test it on a few other cars and see if the deadzone holds true.

After trying it out in a KTM (where I can see the front wheels from cockpit view) I see that even after the driver's hands stop rotating the wheels keep turning until I've pushed the stick the full distance.

That means the range is wider than I initially posted on a DS3 despite the driver animation suggesting otherwise.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Use DS2 with USB Adapter, problem solved for gas and brake, 3 times more accurate than DS3 ( face buttons ) so no need for the trigger at all for gas and brake.

 

[MidFieldMaven]

How are DS2's face buttons more accurate than the DS3's?

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

How are DS2's face buttons more accurate than the DS3's?

It takes 3 times more pressure to get 100% input, meaning more accurate braking and gas with cross and square. It's how I can drive like this with no ABS and generally higher BB than most people can do. If you ever play Ace Combat 5 in PS2, the radar/map button - square needs lots of pressure to get fully zoomed in. That's how the brakes is in GT6.



or this Lancia Stratos on CH - back in 1.00 GT6



Lamborghini Diablo GT'00, Bathurst, Comfort Medium, 2:24.678

 

[Johnnypenso]

It takes 3 times more pressure to get 100% input, meaning more accurate braking and gas with cross and square. It's how I can drive like this with no ABS and generally higher BB than most people can do. If you ever play Ace Combat 5 in PS2, the radar/map button - square needs lots of pressure to get fully zoomed in. That's how the brakes is in GT6.



or this Lancia Stratos on CH - back in 1.00 GT6



Lamborghini Diablo GT'00, Bathurst, Comfort Medium, 2:24.678

That makes the DS2 face buttons more usable than DS3, but the triggers are still more accurate and being able to use both simultaneously is also an advantage.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

That makes the DS2 face buttons more usable than DS3, but the triggers are still more accurate and being able to use both simultaneously is also an advantage.

Do you mean triggers more accurate than DS2 face buttons ? I don't think so, I've tried the triggers before ( back in GT5 ) both on DS3 and DS2. Can you dial 10% increment in gas and brake using triggers with accuracy as well as hold it in steady state ? I can hold the brake or gas at 50-70-80% steadily in a corner, its how I can trail brake deeply into a corner and drove that Yellowbird on CM at Tsukuba One of my replay uploaded in my garage, Saleen S7 replica at Big Willow on CS tire, 1:21s, the long right curve after 1st corner is a good example. I had to maintain precise throttle control from entry to exit ( within less than 10% range )

I do use trigger ( R2 ) for left foot braking, very useful and accurate for it's purpose. Now if I can use L2 for clutch

 

[Johnnypenso]

Do you mean triggers more accurate than DS2 face buttons ? I don't think so, I've tried the triggers before ( back in GT5 ) both on DS3 and DS2. Can you dial 10% increment in gas and brake using triggers with accuracy as well as hold it in steady state ? I can hold the brake or gas at 50-70-80% steadily in a corner, its how I can trail brake deeply into a corner and drove that Yellowbird on CM at Tsukuba One of my replay uploaded in my garage, Saleen S7 replica at Big Willow on CS tire, 1:21s, the long right curve after 1st corner is a good example. I had to maintain precise throttle control from entry to exit ( within less than 10% range )

I do use trigger ( R2 ) for left foot braking, very useful and accurate for it's purpose. Now if I can use L2 for clutch

Longer range of input means more accuracy assuming all else the same. Being able to gas/brake simultaneously is also an advantage and you can't steer with one finger and accurately use 2 buttons at a time with the same finger.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Longer range of input means more accuracy assuming all else the same. Being able to gas/brake simultaneously is also an advantage and you can't steer with one finger and accurately use 2 buttons at a time with the same finger.

I often do manual throttle blip when braking with no ABS ( using square and my thumb ), that would be 2 buttons at the same time, right ? I also use R2 for brake while gas using cross. I think the length of input do have a role, but when I used face buttons, the pressure required alone is good enough that I can comfortably dial any amount of input. I can use R2 for gas and square for brake for instance, with L1 for shift down and L2 for shift up, makes for fun finger play - throttle blip on downshift is addicting , did that long ago too

It's all depend on what you are comfortable with

 

[PJTierney]

When I played GT4 I preferred using the right stick to control the throttle and brake, shifting gears with L1/R1.

Once moving to Xbox 360 I used the triggers, with the gears mapped to face buttons; I carried that over to GT6 when I got a PS3.

I know one driver that does quite well with the face button setup but I couldn't go back to that or a stick configuration, feels too alien to me now.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I actually use triggers for gas and brake, on NFS games and GTA V, because they don't allow face buttons for gas and brake.

 

[CSLACR]

I used the buttons and d-pad on PS1, buttons and stick for PS2, and both sticks on PS3 (because the pressure sensitive buttons went away) Although I owned the DFGT wheel for PS3 almost immediately, which I am currently using today.

 

[Streeto]

I used the buttons and d-pad on PS1, buttons and stick for PS2, and both sticks on PS3 (because the pressure sensitive buttons went away) Although I owned the DFGT wheel for PS3 almost immediately, which I am currently using today.

Pretty sure they didn't... using X as throttle right now and I can use quarter/half throttle if I want to.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I often do manual throttle blip when braking with no ABS ( using square and my thumb ), that would be 2 buttons at the same time, right ? I also use R2 for brake while gas using cross. I think the length of input do have a role, but when I used face buttons, the pressure required alone is good enough that I can comfortably dial any amount of input. I can use R2 for gas and square for brake for instance, with L1 for shift down and L2 for shift up, makes for fun finger play - throttle blip on downshift is addicting , did that long ago too

It's all depend on what you are comfortable with

I think you are confusing "can be done" and "comfortable with", with "what is most accurate". I could probably get used to driving with an original Atari controller with two buttons if I had to but it defies all logic to say that your inputs can be just as accurate with 1/4 the range of motion. They can't, it's simple physics. That's not to say you can't get around the track effectively using the buttons, obviously you do, but that's not the same as which input is more accurate. People can and do still use the D-pad and once in a while they snuck into a high position in a TT in GT5, but that doesn't change the fact that the sticks provide more accuracy than the D-pad does.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I think you are confusing "can be done" and "comfortable with", with "what is most accurate". I could probably get used to driving with an original Atari controller with two buttons if I had to but it defies all logic to say that your inputs can be just as accurate with 1/4 the range of motion. They can't, it's simple physics. That's not to say you can't get around the track effectively using the buttons, obviously you do, but that's not the same as which input is more accurate. People can and do still use the D-pad and once in a while they snuck into a high position in a TT in GT5, but that doesn't change the fact that the sticks provide more accuracy than the D-pad does.

Obviously you haven't tried DS2 yet It works for me and accurate as I can lower or raise by 10% increment easily, try do that with a stick. Is it possible to drive like I do ( high BB no ABS on low grip tire ) using the supposedly more accurate stick or triggers ? Take this Saleen S7 on CS treplay for example, if you have time to view it.

Just to let you know, I have tried the stick and triggers when I started GT5 ( no ABS since day one ), 6 months of practice and getting used to the DS3 and DS2 at first, tried all key configuration ( stick, trigger and face button, with minimum target that I can throttle blip under braking, drive smoothly ) I stayed with face buttons in the end and it was the only buttons that allow me to drive this kind of hybrid in GT5 :

Toyota 86 GT Turbo 600+HP at Madrid 1:38.569-Comfort Soft


I could use stick or trigger, but I am certain my driving won't be close to that video.

 

[cjr3559]

Obviously you haven't tried DS2 yet It works for me and accurate as I can lower or raise by 10% increment easily, try do that with a stick. Is it possible to drive like I do ( high BB no ABS on low grip tire ) using the supposedly more accurate stick or triggers ? Take this Saleen S7 on CS treplay for example, if you have time to view it.

Just to let you know, I have tried the stick and triggers when I started GT5 ( no ABS since day one ), 6 months of practice and getting used to the DS3 and DS2 at first, tried all key configuration ( stick, trigger and face button, with minimum target that I can throttle blip under braking, drive smoothly ) I stayed with face buttons in the end and it was the only buttons that allow me to drive this kind of hybrid in GT5 :

Toyota 86 GT Turbo 600+HP at Madrid 1:38.569-Comfort Soft


I could use stick or trigger, but I am certain my driving won't be close to that video.

Off topic -- people poke fun at the sounds in GT, but the sound quality of the recording sounds like a chainsaw having its way with a tree.

 

[CSLACR]

Pretty sure they didn't... using X as throttle right now and I can use quarter/half throttle if I want to.

Yeah, I'm not sure what the deal is there. They said they were going away and I never saw it listed, but in any case, on all 4 controllers I've owned over the lifespan, none of them were half as precise as DS2 controllers were. I find it unlikely that all of my controllers were duds. So maybe it has it, but it sucks enough I couldn't use it properly, or should I say, it wasn't good enough to count for me.

Obviously you haven't tried DS2 yet It works for me and accurate as I can lower or raise by 10% increment easily, try do that with a stick. Is it possible to drive like I do ( high BB no ABS on low grip tire ) using the supposedly more accurate stick or triggers ? Take this Saleen S7 on CS treplay for example, if you have time to view it.

Just to let you know, I have tried the stick and triggers when I started GT5 ( no ABS since day one ), 6 months of practice and getting used to the DS3 and DS2 at first, tried all key configuration ( stick, trigger and face button, with minimum target that I can throttle blip under braking, drive smoothly ) I stayed with face buttons in the end and it was the only buttons that allow me to drive this kind of hybrid in GT5 :

Toyota 86 GT Turbo 600+HP at Madrid 1:38.569-Comfort Soft


I could use stick or trigger, but I am certain my driving won't be close to that video.

Get further left down the straight to setup for the first turn, and stop lifting for the soft right after the u-turn turn 2.
Very smooth for controller, I don't doubt the DS2 more accurate, I know the buttons were.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Off topic -- people poke fun at the sounds in GT, but the sound quality of the recording sounds like a chainsaw having its way with a tree.

It was recorded on ancient Sony Ericsson W910i.

Yeah, I'm not sure what the deal is there. They said they were going away and I never saw it listed, but in any case, on all 4 controllers I've owned over the lifespan, none of them were half as precise as DS2 controllers were. I find it unlikely that all of my controllers were duds. So maybe it has it, but it sucks enough I couldn't use it properly, or should I say, it wasn't good enough to count for me.


Get further left down the straight to setup for the first turn, and stop lifting for the soft right after the u-turn turn 2.
Very smooth for controller, I don't doubt the DS2 more accurate, I know the buttons were.

I was let down when I got PS3 for the 1st time and tried the DS3. The DS3 build quality was worse than my original DS2, the analog stick on DS2 felt more tight and precise, the DS2 buttons were much better too when I first played MGS IV Shooting and moving around the Old Snake was ten times better with DS2, it felt weighty but very accurate. On some PS3 games that uses analog pressure sensitive input, I could do actions slower or quicker with ease/controllable and accurate with the DS2 face buttons NASCAR 2011 and Ferrari The Race Experiance was way much better too - braking with no brake assist and the throttle control that allowed me to drive it like a real car, DS3 was horrible on the NASCAR and Ferrari TRE.

The driving on the GT86, yeah I should have made use of the track width It was a test/tune session for the hybrid that was just built, the goal was make it less a monster for track day driving I failed as it was more useful as drift machine.

 

[Streeto]

Yeah, I'm not sure what the deal is there. They said they were going away and I never saw it listed, but in any case, on all 4 controllers I've owned over the lifespan, none of them were half as precise as DS2 controllers were. I find it unlikely that all of my controllers were duds. So maybe it has it, but it sucks enough I couldn't use it properly, or should I say, it wasn't good enough to count for me.

Well, if I'm honest it's a PS3 Sixaxis controller, not DS3, so maybe there's a difference in the buttons.

 

[CSLACR]

Well, if I'm honest it's a PS3 Sixaxis controller, not DS3, so maybe there's a difference in the buttons.

*shrug* All I know for sure is I liked my DS2 much better than my PS3 controllers, whatever their capabilities or name(s)..