Counting down to Le Mans

[colnago]

It's ovious that the audi's are far more reliable than the pescarolo's

That's an understatement...the R8s hit the wall at the corkscrew (as far as I remember) @ Laguna, at about a 45 degree angle in an ALMS race, with enough force to bounce off, and still finished on the podium if not the overall win.

 

[colnago]

So can anyone tell me why race cars, like the Aston DB9 for example, with over 500HP can't have an air conditioning compressor running of their engine. Would it really add so much weight, and would it really drain so much power? I'm sure they could design a more efficient and lighter race version if they wanted to as well...

Just for comparison, the removal of the A/C unit on my G60 Corrado saves about 45 lbs., and ~10-15 WHP.

 

[colnago]

Still shouldn't make 20 odd seconds difference, the cars in GT4 are more powerful that the real ones to keep them competitive with the group C's, thats why the times are faster.

I remember hearing that the R8s put out about between 600-700 hp, at least under ALMS rules and boost restrictions...vs. the 800hp or so listed in GT4. With the Pescarolo having a reported 100hp more than the R8, that would put them closer to 750-800.

Has anyone run the Pescarolo with R1 or R2 to get a comparison on the "race trim" times they got this year?

 

[Zardoz]

Yes, just a couple of days ago. Race trim on the Pesky is R3/R2. With stock power I cruised to an easy 3:14. I didn't try to make a fast lap.

BTW, it hit 233 MPH on the straight before the first chicane. That's over 30 MPH too fast compared to the real car, per the trap times posted on the official web site.

 

[Gerco]

It's a bit fake I must say, they are saying it's a driving sim, if it is the lm cars don't go faster than they actualy are

 

[colnago]

Yes, just a couple of days ago. Race trim on the Pesky is R3/R2. With stock power I cruised to an easy 3:14. I didn't try to make a fast lap.

BTW, it hit 233 MPH on the straight before the first chicane. That's over 30 MPH too fast compared to the real car, per the trap times posted on the official web site.

The only response I can have to that, regarding GT4s ability to recreate accurate lap times, is that the R3s were probably used at night, where they "probably" aren't going to go all out. Most teams were reporting using "an extra hot compound" to deal with the higher than usual heat, which would "probably" put them on R5s. Also, like you said, the cars were setup for about 200mph via downforce, gearing, or combination.

The Audi teams were shooting for 12-13 laps per pit...a true "lap time test" for RL vs GT4 would come from a tire compound equal to that lap distance. If you were pushing 3:10-3:14, if you drop down to R5, and drove to get 13 laps on those tires, I'd "guess" you'd be putting up close to the 3:30s. Not defending GT4 or anything, just trying to put things in perspective.

 

[colnago]

It's a bit fake I must say, they are saying it's a driving sim, if it is the lm cars don't go faster than they actualy are

Well I'm sure it was done for "parity sake". Look at GT3, there were 4-5 LMP/GT1/Group-C type cars, all of which had varying weights, HP, etc. in RL and GT3. For GT3's gameplay, in stock form, 1 car was just plain faster than the other. There would be no way to have a fair race with a diverse field.

In GT4, you have a much greater field of "like-cars", but again in real life, there is disparity as they are from different eras and rule-bases. PD just made every car have similar weight/HP, which I think is good for Mulit-player LAN play. Now you have an even playing field if you prefer one "team/car" over the other...unlike the 50kg, 100hp, larger air restrictor advantage the Pescarolos had this weekend.

In RL, most of these cars have turbos, and based on current rules, at least with the ALMS, boost levels are both restricted and monitored. The air intakes also have restrictors. I'd think it would be fair to say that these cars are capable of much more HP and faster lap times than what you are seeing based on today's race.

All things being equal, I think PD did a pretty good job.

 

[colnago]

My fault...looks like the R8 has a restricted 591hp...taken from here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi_R8

The R8 is motivated by a 3.6-litre twin-turbocharged and intercooled Audi FSI V8. FSI stands for Fuel-Stratified Injection, which is a new form of fuel injection developed by Audi which maximizes both power and fuel economy at the same time. FSI technology can be found in products available to the normal public, in many of Audi's 2005 models, and will soon be in each model as well as select Volkswagen models in the near future.

The power supplied by the R8, limited to about 591 horsepower (441 kW) during the 2004 race, is sent to the rear wheels via a Ricardo six-speed sequential transmission.

So I guess it's off to "Arcade Mode", with 10% less power, and R5s to see if I can recreate those 3:30s lap times.



More R8 specs...from different years:

From here: http://www.7extrememotorsports.com/lemans/cars/lmp900-audi-r8.htm

Audi R8 performance stats
General Information
Produced in 2001 - 2003
Curb weight 911 kg average for 2001 model, 908 kg for 2002 model
Length 4650 mm / 183.07 in
Width 2000 mm / 78.74 in
Wheelbase 2730 mm / 107.48 in
Layout Mid Engine / RWD
Drivetrain
Engine 90º V8, turbo-charged, 2 Garrett turbo-chargers
Displacement 3600 cc
Valvetrain 4 valves/cylinder, DOHC
Fuel feed Bosch Motronic MS 2.9 Fuel injection
Aspiration Twin Turbo
Gearbox Ricardo 6 speed Sequential
Performance
Horsepower 659 HP 2001 & 2002, 593 HP 2003 (Looks like I was right )
BHP/Liter 169.4
Torque 516 + lb/ft
Redline 8050 rpm
Power to weight ratio 0.68 BHP/kg
Top Speed 205 mph
0-60 mph acceleration 3.3 sec

 

[Spook]

Well I enjoyed the (Le Mans) race a lot more than Indianapolis GP...

Depressing

 

[VyPeR]

With about 45 minutes left in the race, and the R8 in the lead...
("Oh wow what a surprise!!!"), I just turned my TV off. I couldnt sit down to watch another R8 win. The Aston Martins could've won if not for the penalties and some problems, other than that they did a great job on the track... but anyway Im a Corvette fan, so I'm happy the Vettes won at least.

The Pescarolos I believe, should've won this race,(or ANY car to beat the R8s please!!!!!) but anything can happen in a race, especially on 24hrs.

Depsite the loss, the Pescarolo Team did a good job. Maybe next year? Or will we see Audi dominating as usual with their new R10s??

 

[Zardoz]

...The Aston Martins could've won if not for the penalties and some problems...

Neither Aston was even running at the end. The car that finished ninth was sent limping out for one lap so it could take the checker.

 

[UnlimitedZero]

Depsite the loss, the Pescarolo Team did a good job.

Good job? They did a great job! It was amazing for them to have so many problems be 16th and come back to get 2nd place, and only be a lap or so down. They should have won, and the Audi should have been disqualified for a busted headlight.

 

[JohnBM01]

I'll try to sound off on this year's Le Mans endurance in the "Drifting and Other Motorsports" forum. So check out my reaction. By the way, it almost seemed like a race in the late stages as the second place PlayStation Gran Turismo Pescarolo was finally on the lead lap, all to lose it and go about two laps down. Afterwards, I almost cried with seeing the victory at long last. I'm kind of surprised no GT5 or Vision Gran Turismo livery on the cars or whatever was on track or on a car.

Now that this year's race is done, we can always start to look forward to next year's Le Mans! (normally, I don't make smart ass comments, but you dig?)

 

[356C]

One thing you have to remember about the Audi R8. Audi is owned by Porsche. Porsche dominated at LeMans for years since '70 through the late '90s. Where do you think all that experience and technology went? If Porsche wanted to, they'd have Porsches winning not Audis. Who knows, maybe in a few year they'll figure Audi has had enough good publicity and put the VW badge on a winning LM car.

I still think the coolest LM car EVER is the '70 Porsche 917K. Oh yeah, flat 12 baby 👍

And if you think about it, in 1970 the 917K would top out around 230 MPH. They haven't gotten much faster, at least in straight line speed (I do realize the addition of the 2 chicanes reduces top speed on muslane straight). The big improvements in the last 35 years have been durability and cornering speeds. Certainly the '70 Porsches could've performed better with modern tires, brakes, oil, etc.

 

[SteveMcQueen]

One thing you have to remember about the Audi R8. Audi is owned by Porsche. Porsche dominated at LeMans for years since '70 through the late '90s. Where do you think all that experience and technology went?

Nice theory, but you're wrong: Audi is not owned by Porsche, but by Volkswagen.

Porsche is independent. They will come back with a LMP2 next year btw.

 

[356C]

Newsflash dude, VW owns Porsche too. Hello, Toureg/Cheyenne. All one big happy family. The base engine in the Porsche SUV is a 3.2L VW engine. I'm sure you already know, but just in case, VW and Porsche were both started by the late great Dr. Ferdinand Porsche, his son Ferry is responsible for the success of the Porsche company and for the fine quality of my own '64 Porsche 356C. Perhaps you know of the ownership of their individual racing programs, and that is what you are talking about. I find it hard to believe that the knowledge and experience gathered by Porsche would not find its way into Audi racing development. Did you know that the Porsche 924 and 944 front engined cars were originally designed to be Audis? In any case, you do have one of the coolest names in these forums.

 

[gumpy]

Newsflash dude, VW owns Porsche too. Hello, Toureg/Cheyenne. All one big happy family. The base engine in the Porsche SUV is a 3.2L VW engine. I'm sure you already know, but just in case, VW and Porsche were both started by the late great Dr. Ferdinand Porsche, his son Ferry is responsible for the success of the Porsche company and for the fine quality of my own '64 Porsche 356C. Perhaps you know of the ownership of their individual racing programs perhaps. I find it hard to believe that the knowledge and experience gathered by Porsche would not find its way into Audi racing development. Did you know that the Porsche 924 and 944 front engined cars were originally designed to be Audis? In any case, you do have one of the coolest names in these forums.

I don't know the details but sharing engines / development does not equal the same as ownership. It happens all the time.

Here in Australia we have had Skylines with a rebadged Holden engine (or holden with Nissan engine - can't remember which way it was). We also had Toyota and Holden share a model - Commodore and Lexcen.

 

[356C]

I understand, but let me be clear, I didn't say that the engine in the Audi R8 was a Porsche engine per se, or the transmission was for that matter. They are authentically "Audi". However, I believe the design and settings of the car benefitted from insight gathered from years of experience from the same company.

 

[Gerco]

and the Audi should have been disqualified for a busted headlight.

But the headlight wasn't working any more at the END of the race, you can only be diqualified if you don't use the lights at night

 

[Gerco]

I understand, but let me be clear, I didn't say that the engine in the Audi R8 was a Porsche engine per se, or the transmission was for that matter. They are authentically "Audi". However, I believe the design and settings of the car benefitted from insight gathered from years of experience from the same company.

When audi didn't had the experience from porsche no way they would have won Le Mans, not even one time

 

[SteveMcQueen]

Newsflash dude, VW owns Porsche too. Hello, Toureg/Cheyenne. All one big happy family.

You are referring to technology transfer between constructors for sharing development costs. This happens all the time and has nothing to do with who owns whom. As I said, Porsche is a completely independent company with public shares.
I agree, Audi may have benefitted from the huge experience at Porsche in Endurance racing, but not by ownership or any other power to get a look into their blueprints, but by the simple fact that engineers are changing their workplace and companies all the time back and forth, just as a normal way of their careers in the motorsport business. In the end, there are not many places where you can find work in Germany if you are a race engineer.

You guys are giving Audi not enough credit for this. Their technological edge has always been the FSI technology of direct fuel injection, a first in Endurance racing. This was not coming from Porsche.

In any case, you do have one of the coolest names in these forums.

Thanks bro

 

[Biggs]

The thing your forgetting about the real-life and GT4 comparison lap times is that the cars in real life have a much more strenuous time out on the track. They are often not operating at their full capacity for extremely large amounts of the race to try and save the vital components from wearing out. Gearboxes are one of the main examples. The racing gearboxes are designed for quick gear changes, but they have to change thousands of times in the 24 hour race. After a while theyre going to burn out, so teams will try and save the gearbox by maybe taking corners slower to avoid unnecessary upshifts. Yes the Cars in Gt4 can reach these higher speeds, but you only have to look at Indianopolis GP for a very recent example of why GT4 is unrealistic.

At Indianopolis the Michelin runners couldnt race because of faulty tires, that collapsed at high speed along turn 13 and the main straight. Maybe the LM cars are similar, in that when pushing to try andreach the extraordinary speeds of 230mph they could be putting the tires at risk, and they perhaps wouldnt want to take the risk and again run the car below its full capacity. I know a few cars sustained punctures down the high speed straight - and at the end of the day, without fully realistic damage in Gt4, you arent going to be able to accurately compare real life times with in game times.

 

[Gerco]

At Indianopolis the Michelin runners couldnt race because of faulty tires, that collapsed at high speed along turn 13 and the main straight. Maybe the LM cars are similar, in that when pushing to try andreach the extraordinary speeds of 230mph they could be putting the tires at risk, and they perhaps wouldnt want to take the risk and again run the car below its full capacity. I know a few cars sustained punctures down the high speed straight - and at the end of the day, without fully realistic damage in Gt4, you arent going to be able to accurately compare real life times with in game times.

I don't get it why you are beginning about Michilin tyres at Indi

 

[Biggs]

Read it all. I was referring to tire damage

 

[Gerco]

Read it all. I was referring to tire damage

than you're in the wrong thread

 

[colnago]

Newsflash dude, VW owns Porsche too. Hello, Toureg/Cheyenne. All one big happy family....

??



Volkswagen AG doesn't "own" Porsche:

VW Automotive Group structure

Porsche shareholder structure

...though they do share common components and have "supplied" each other with parts and technology (i.e. the Audi AWD system for the Cheyenne, but have also supplied like system to BMW for the X5).

Also, Ferdinand Porsche didn't "Found" or "start" VW, that was Hitler's vision and creation, Porsche was the lead designer and engineer commisioned for the first vehicles.

But back on topic, as much as a Porsche/VW/Audi fan that I am, and admire the engineering marvel that is the "R8", I really do wish that there was more "diversity" in the top class of endurance racing. Only having 3-4 different chassis/mfg./teams makes for a boring race, especially if they are all R8s. I think the Pescarolos were a breath of fresh air to the class and I love the "independent teams".

With that said, am I the only one who felt that the Pescarolos should "NOT" have been allowed:

* To run a 2006 spec car (advantage Pescarolo)
* To have 100hp over the field (advantage Pescarolo)
* To have 125 less weight (advantage Pecarolo)
* To have larger air intake restrictors (advantage Pecarolo)
(the Pescarolos "should" have been able to fall behind then catch up again)

From Audi's website:

http://www.audi.com/audi/com/en1/experience/motorsport/customer_sport_r80/audi_r8.html

...2005 is already the sixth season for the most successful Le Mans Prototype ever. It will, quite literally, be tough going for the R8, at least in the Le Mans Endurance Series (LMES) and at the 24 Hours of Le Mans: The R8 must start with 50 kilograms more ballast than before (950 instead of 900 kilograms). Furthermore, the European regulations stipulate an even smaller engine air intake restrictor than in the previous year. The power of the turbo FSI engine dropped to approximately 520 horsepower. To compare: In March 2000 the Audi R8 made its debut in Sebring with well in excess of 600 hp...


For those of you comparing RL and GT4 lap times, and how to set up GT4 car to recreate:

R8- 950kg and 520hp on tires that can complete 20-30 laps (based on reports of double/triple stinted tires)

Pescarolo- 900kg and ~620hp

 

[Gerco]

You've done some nice research:tup:

 

[katana87]

first time seeing the Le Mans reace 24 hours man i just love those Pescarolos too bad they had some problems.

 

[356C]

How about the whole Chassis structure for the Porsche Cheyenne. Its the same as the VW Toureg, not just the AWD system. From what you say VW doesn't "Own" Porsche. However, It would seem that the 2 companies communicate well with each other, and do it often. I believe VW and Porsche are much closer than VW and BMW. VW and BMW directly compete, i.e. Audi v. BMW in the marketplace. I don't understand how people can believe that Porsches success at Lemans has had no effect on Audi's.

 

[colnago]

How about the whole Chassis structure for the Porsche Cheyenne. Its the same as the VW Toureg, not just the AWD system. From what you say VW doesn't "Own" Porsche. However, It would seem that the 2 companies communicate well with each other, and do it often. I believe VW and Porsche are much closer than VW and BMW. VW and BMW directly compete, i.e. Audi v. BMW in the marketplace. I don't understand how people can believe that Porsches success at Lemans has had no effect on Audi's.

I don't think that anyone is saying that, "Porsche, VW, and Audi don't have a technology sharing/supplying relationship(s)"...re-read my last post. I support the statements that there are "cross-platform VW/Audi/Porsche" components (e.g. your Cheyenne example). I currently have (2) VWs, owned a third in the past, as well as an Audi. Many of my parts boxes had VW/AUDI/Porsche stamped on them. Yes VW is closer to Porsche, but that doesn't change the fact that BMW commisioned "parts/systems" from VW/Audi, even though they are competitors in the marketplace.

I think people were mostly replying to your "less than accurate statements":

- "Porsche owns Audi"
- "VW owns Porsche too"
- "VW and Porsche were both started by the late great Dr. Ferdinand Porsche"

and your one statement,

- "I didn't say that the engine in the Audi R8 was a Porsche engine per se, or the transmission was for that matter. They are authentically "Audi".

...is also not entirely true. The R8s gearbox, the famous one that was able to get replaced in less than 5 minutes during a race, is a product of the Ricardo company...not Audi.

I applaud your enthusiasm, as well as your insights, esp. 'cuz you're a Porsche fan 👍...I just don't agree with your above statements.