"Daily" Race Discussion [Archive]

[05XR8]

Should have left it alone and jumped back in GTA V.

Started 3rd. 1st & 2nd kept battling. Vantage vs Huracan. Bull spears the V8. Gets .5 seconds. The V8 kept houbnding the Bull. I said to myself, "Don't press him. We'll get him at the PZ. The V8 keeps pressing all the way to the bus stop. Finally backs off at the start of the final lap.

I'm in 2nd and matching the V8, but it keeps glitching( I tell him this at the finish). We get to the braking zone of the bus stop. He takes the outside, I'm in the middle of the circuit. The V8 isn't turning to take the corner, I go more inside as now it starts turning. BAM! I turn the corner and slow up to let the V8 pass. Huracan grabs P1 through the exchange. I'm done.

 

[Redneckchef]

Got punted 3 times my last race by the same 'spirited' scumbag. Did not get a single penalty. I get pushed wide at turn 2 and as I comes back on he runs inside pushing his wheels off. I get 2 seconds. Serve them, catch him. He barges me wide at that last hairpin, I keep it straight anyway, pull back on to the track going straight and he spins out because he had wheels on the inside curb. Since last contact was him shoving me wide I get another 2 seconds!

Tried to drive cautiously to salvage SR. Nope. Not having it. Got put into progressively worse rooms all night. Last room had E/D drivers, C/D, B/D. Mixed with a couple of us at B/A. Still ended up 4th. SR still dropping thanks to that. Time to do something else.

Edit:

Here's the full SR chart for one guy who cost me 2 major and who knows how many minor SR downs. Ugh. Drop out of SR S on a really sketchy race like race C and this is what you end up in a pack of.

 

[MaxAttack]

Yeh.. not ...entirely... accurate. There are more things in heaven and earth @O604 than is dreamt of in your philosophy . And more cars that classify as race cars than F1 . @MaxAttack , off the top of your head, can you think of race cars that use the hand brake on tarmac?

I have been summoned!

Rallycross is all that comes to mind, though I think one will find Ken Block is more prone to pulling it than, say, Timmy Hansen. Most of the sideways is actually achieved by virtue of short wheelbases, buckets of power and low grip/surface changes.

Group B didn't have handbrakes and until recently, according to my patchy knowledge, it's never really been seen as something to use. FWD rally drivers will be using it at hairpins, but I'm not sure about back in the day. I'm fairly sure I've seen some footage of an original rally mini and he was using it.

But modern WRC is the golden age of the handbrake, particularly on tarmac town/road courses and special stages. You can watch the drivers get pretty friendly with it when they're close to the crowds.

EDIT: Autocross is your best option for handbrake use of your own, if you really need to get it out of your system

Source ~ pulled out of my ass

 

[250Cal]

I have been summoned!

Rallycross is all that comes to mind, though I think one will find Ken Block is more prone to pulling it than, say, Timmy Hansen. Most of the sideways is actually achieved by virtue of short wheelbases, buckets of power and low grip/surface changes.

Group B didn't have handbrakes and until recently, according to my patchy knowledge, it's never really been seen as something to use. FWD rally drivers will be using it at hairpins, but I'm not sure about back in the day. I'm fairly sure I've seen some footage of an original rally mini and he was using it.

But modern WRC is the golden age of the handbrake, particularly on tarmac town/road courses and special stages. You can watch the drivers get pretty friendly with it when they're close to the crowds.

EDIT: Autocross is your best option for handbrake use of your own, if you really need to get it out of your system

Source ~ pulled out of my ass

Handbrake turns have been used as a means of rotating the car for a long time.
4WD Group B couldn't use handbrakes with the diff technology of the time.

 

[MaxAttack]

Handbrake turns have been used as a means of rotating the car for a long time.
4WD Group B couldn't use handbrakes with the diff technology of the time.

Yes, the older cars of the 70s and 80s certainly had handbrakes but from my hobbyist viewing of the footage that survives, they certainly don't use it like a modern driver.

Even in the post group B days I recall Colin and Carlos sliding the car mostly through use of the gearing and foot braking as opposed to handbraking. Rally drivers have always had the option of using it but I think a modern electronic brake serves much more use than what the older drivers had.

I'm sure I can be proven wrong somehow but I believe modern WRC has significantly more handbrake use than any previous era.

EDIT: Clarification - modern drivers use the handbrake at higher speeds and shallower corners than any time in history.

 

[BombayPhantom]

My first post here

Based on @05XR8 s extensive research, I started Spa with the Genesis, and boy, what a handler it is. I am still new at GT Sport so my first quali time in SPA was a 35.xx. Over the last 2 days I managed to bring this down to 33.xx using the Genesis. Then last night, I received the SLS AMG as a gift car and I immediately took it to SPA. On the first lap itself I managed to get a quali time of 32.xx. Just like that. I later noticed that the AMG is FAAAST on the Kemmel straight. Although it does get out of hand if you push it too much. I am eager to see what the SLS can do. I want to knock off another second of my quali time

On another note - I started P4 in SPA last evening, and it is the worst place to start. The Auto drive came off on the last chicane when i was facing the curbs/wall. I lost one position to the guy who started P5 even before the start finish line.

Knocked off almost a second in SPA quali. Now down to 31.xx using the SLS AMG. Got to find another second over the weekend

Also, in one of the races last evening, I was battling it out with a Veyron. I was in the SLS AMG and had a clean exits right upto the Kemmel straight. I had my eye on the mirror and was quite ahead of the Veyron when we hit the straight. Mid way, the Veyron was all over my tail and I had no place to defend. I let him through and followed him for the full lap, and this is what I noticed - The Veyron is mighty quick on the straights, it just pulls away. But on the corners, he was braking much more than I did and seemed to have a hard time to get the car to turn in properly. This meant I could get on his tail again, and keep up; another straight comes, and off he goes. I am going to try the Veyron in SPA today.

 

[250Cal]

Yes, the older cars of the 70s and 80s certainly had handbrakes but from my hobbyist viewing of the footage that survives, they certainly don't use it like a modern driver.

Even in the post group B days I recall Colin and Carlos sliding the car mostly through use of the gearing and foot braking as opposed to handbraking. Rally drivers have always had the option of using it but I think a modern electronic brake serves much more use than what the older drivers had.

I'm sure I can be proven wrong somehow but I believe modern WRC has significantly more handbrake use than any previous era.

EDIT: Clarification - modern drivers use the handbrake at higher speeds and shallower corners than any time in history.

It depends on the car,what else is in the chassis, the situation and the surface. You can play tunes on modern diffs that you simply could not previously.


McRae, Impreza, 97. 1:38 in, handbrake?

 

[MaxAttack]

It depends on the car,what else is in the chassis, the situation and the surface. You can play tunes on modern diffs that you simply could not previously.


McRae, Impreza, 97. 1:38 in, handbrake?

Couldn't tell ya, sure looks like it, a quick tug to aid the weight transfer in turning from one side to the other.

Agree with you that in rallying, there's no direct formula for how often the handbrake will be pulled. The course, car, surface conditions and tendencies of the driver all have an impact.

I think a combination of technological advancement and a new breed of driver are the main causes for what we see now.

Lovely McRae footage, RIP to the man as always. Love Nicky Grist's notes - L-l-left!



Now, let's compare with a modern driver, WRC champion Ött Tanak at this year's rally Germany. Here we can see immediately the change in driver philosophy - in the Toyota the handbrake handle reaches up to just a few inches from Tanak's right hand, allowing him to reach for it much quicker than Colin (whom I believe might be using an H-shifter as well, depending on the year).

You'll see that Tanak yanks the handbrake several times on turn-in to 90 degree-ish turns, but also clears many turns of similar tightness without using it. I imagine he is only using it where he feels the track surface is stable enough for such a harsh rotation. Regardless he is employing it differently to Colin (different surface should be taken into account) where McRae appeared to use the handbrake when shifting from turning fully one way to fully the other, Tanak is using it to apply more rotation on turn-in. I think this represents more of the modern driver's approach to handbrake use.

Definitely an interesting topic that I could research more.

EDIT: For what it's worth, in my Dirt/WRC playing, I avoid the handbrake like the plague. The only place I use it very regularly would be the Monte Carlo hairpins, but even then if it's particularly icy I would prefer to rotate with the throttle.

 

[250Cal]

Couldn't tell ya, sure looks like it, a quick tug to aid the weight transfer in turning from one side to the other.

Agree with you that in rallying, there's no direct formula for how often the handbrake will be pulled. The course, car, surface conditions and tendencies of the driver all have an impact.

I think a combination of technological advancement and a new breed of driver are the main causes for what we see now.

Lovely McRae footage, RIP to the man as always. Love Nicky Grist's notes - L-l-left!



Now, let's compare with a modern driver, WRC champion Ött Tanak at this year's rally Germany. Here we can see immediately the change in driver philosophy - in the Toyota the handbrake handle reaches up to just a few inches from Tanak's right hand, allowing him to reach for it much quicker than Colin (whom I believe might be using an H-shifter as well, depending on the year).

You'll see that Tanak yanks the handbrake several times on turn-in to 90 degree-ish turns, but also clears many turns of similar tightness without using it. I imagine he is only using it where he feels the track surface is stable enough for such a harsh rotation. Regardless he is employing it differently to Colin (different surface should be taken into account) where McRae appeared to use the handbrake when shifting from turning fully one way to fully the other, Tanak is using it to apply more rotation on turn-in. I think this represents more of the modern driver's approach to handbrake use.

Definitely an interesting topic that I could research more.

EDIT: For what it's worth, in my Dirt/WRC playing, I avoid the handbrake like the plague. The only place I use it very regularly would be the Monte Carlo hairpins, but even then if it's particularly icy I would prefer to rotate with the throttle.

Colin's not using the handbrake to aid weight transfer per se, he's doing it to break the rear end loose to turn the car (on that occasion on a high grip surface), aided by the weight transfer he's doing with the steering movement, like a mini-Scandi flick.

Modern WRC cars are an entirely different thing but they're both doing the same thing - rotating the car. The diff technology means they now operate in a different sphere of physics to the earlier cars. Trying to drive them the same way is not going to work in terms of yielding the best results. Rallying isn't so much about the corner you're in, as the one you're going to be in next. They set the car up way in advance and are always thinking ahead. This, along with other variables, means they might do two very different things in seemingly identical corners.

 

[RacingGrandpa]

Modern WRX handbrakes are hydraulic, not electronic like the road cars.

 

[05XR8]

One more.. really, one more race. Going to use the FF Megane.

 

[250Cal]

One more.. really, one more race. Going to use the FF Megane.

Not tried the Mégane. Guess it loses a chunk through Sector 2?

 

[Invisigoth]

Last room had E/D drivers, C/D, B/D. .

Wow that's pretty special ! I mean, you start on E/B, it only takes a few races to graduate to D. You have to really be trying to end up dropping down to SR/D from B in such a short time .

I have been summoned!

Yes you were . Thank you for making my point for me without me having to put in any effort of my own . I'm not sure why I'm still paying my WRC subscription... I've only watched the first 4 races this season . Shame they arn't still running IRC.. I actually preferred it to WRC. And neither of them leave us having to deal with Mike Brewer .

 

[RacingGrandpa]

Wow that's pretty special ! I mean, you start on E/B, it only takes a few races to graduate to D. You have to really be trying to end up dropping down to SR/D from B in such a short time .



Yes you were . Thank you for making my point for me without me having to put in any effort of my own . I'm not sure why I'm still paying my WRC subscription... I've only watched the first 4 races this season . Shame they arn't still running IRC.. I actually preferred it to WRC. And neither of them leave us having to deal with Mike Brewer .

Y'all forgot about the drifting crowd...

 

[Invisigoth]

Y'all forgot about the drifting crowd...

Except we were talking about race cars. Drifting is not racing, it's a performance. It's the figure skating of the car world. It isn't speed skating .

 

[05XR8]

The Megane did better than I thought. Has been the only car come close to my qualy time in the SLS. Anyway, had a good scrap all race.. until....


Edit: That's about right. When I call it quits and go .2 faster than my qualy in the SLS.

 

[MaxAttack]

Wow that's pretty special ! I mean, you start on E/B, it only takes a few races to graduate to D. You have to really be trying to end up dropping down to SR/D from B in such a short time .



Yes you were . Thank you for making my point for me without me having to put in any effort of my own . I'm not sure why I'm still paying my WRC subscription... I've only watched the first 4 races this season . Shame they arn't still running IRC.. I actually preferred it to WRC. And neither of them leave us having to deal with Mike Brewer .

The WRC coverage is so abysmal, I refuse to pay in to their Spotify business model. They really need to sort it out. WRX is always killer, though.

Colin's not using the handbrake to aid weight transfer per se, he's doing it to break the rear end loose to turn the car (on that occasion on a high grip surface), aided by the weight transfer he's doing with the steering movement, like a mini-Scandi flick.

Modern WRC cars are an entirely different thing but they're both doing the same thing - rotating the car. The diff technology means they now operate in a different sphere of physics to the earlier cars. Trying to drive them the same way is not going to work in terms of yielding the best results. Rallying isn't so much about the corner you're in, as the one you're going to be in next. They set the car up way in advance and are always thinking ahead. This, along with other variables, means they might do two very different things in seemingly identical corners.

You're right, it's the same application for all intents and purposes, but the situation is totally different, the modern technology allowing Tanak to use it at much higher speeds. Because of this I think we see more handbrake usage now than in any previous era.

 

[SpaceMaN47y0]

Just once I'd like the matchmaking for race C to put me with comparable racers. Its not much fun racing with the fastest guys in the game so I get lapped in 12 laps and really never see another car after lap 2. Might as well just run time trials if I'm going to be on track alone.

 

[250Cal]

The WRC coverage is so abysmal, I refuse to pay in to their Spotify business model. They really need to sort it out. WRX is always killer, though.



You're right, it's the same application for all intents and purposes, but the situation is totally different, the modern technology allowing Tanak to use it at much higher speeds. Because of this I think we see more handbrake usage now than in any previous era.

I don't know whether they configure/use it to use as a secondary conventional rear brake, like a dynamic balance adjustment. Rather than locking the axle, they're just applying additional braking effort.

 

[MaxAttack]

I don't know whether they configure/use it to use as a secondary conventional rear brake, like a dynamic balance adjustment. Rather than locking the axle, they're just applying additional braking effort.

An interesting question and I couldn't find anything in my very cursory Google effort to shine a light on it. You could probably find out if you look harder than I did.

My inclination would be that it locks the axle like a conventional handbrake, but grip can be recovered so readily owing to the technology in the powertrain (and the whole rest of the car, really) that the handbrake is effectively an on off switch for locking the rears. It certainly appears that way in Tanak's driving.

I'm going to ask someone involved in my school rally team for sure.

 

[250Cal]

An interesting question and I couldn't find anything in my very cursory Google effort to shine a light on it. You could probably find out if you look harder than I did.

My inclination would be that it locks the axle like a conventional handbrake, but grip can be recovered so readily owing to the technology in the powertrain (and the whole rest of the car, really) that the handbrake is effectively an on off switch for locking the rears. It certainly appears that way in Tanak's driving.

I'm going to ask someone involved in my school rally team for sure.

He can lock the rear axle if he wants to but you wouldn't necessarily want a loss of grip during cornering. He can actuate the rear brake, not just on/off. I would think there are occasions where they only brake using a smidge of handbrake i.e. no brake pedal at all.

Edit: I've not watched the full video you linked but the first few examples are fairly "normal" handbrake turns. I've seen other footage where they've far more active on the handbrake.

Different situation but Petter is way more active on the handbrake here, fine tuning cornering making small adjustments

 

[Invisigoth]

Just once I'd like the matchmaking for race C to put me with comparable racers. Its not much fun racing with the fastest guys in the game so I get lapped in 12 laps and really never see another car after lap 2. Might as well just run time trials if I'm going to be on track alone.

I feel your pain brutha . If it's Gr3 or 4 I'm likely to be better matched, but once they break out anything faster, there just aren't enough DR/Ds entering to get a proper match. Same with anything that involves the Nordscheife. It also seems to determined with your SR. I usually get better matching when my SR if close to max. At some point it flipped, because when I first started playing I was getting worse matches at SR 99.

 

[05XR8]

I can sleep well. Night.

 

[Krypton78]

Daylie Race C next week in Autopolis, Gr.3, will be interesting, looking Forward to it

 

[juanito0585]

Yeh.. not ...entirely... accurate. There are more things in heaven and earth @O604 than is dreamt of in your philosophy . And more cars that classify as race cars than F1 . @MaxAttack , off the top of your head, can you think of race cars that use the hand brake on tarmac?

Read the answers to this and nobody seems to remember Loeb drifting his WTCC Citroen around the macau Hairpin... Looking for the video!

 

[Groundfish]

I feel your pain brutha . If it's Gr3 or 4 I'm likely to be better matched, but once they break out anything faster, there just aren't enough DR/Ds entering to get a proper match. Same with anything that involves the Nordscheife. It also seems to determined with your SR. I usually get better matching when my SR if close to max. At some point it flipped, because when I first started playing I was getting worse matches at SR 99.

Join me at sr B I’ve seen plenty!

etting mugged horribly in Race C

YOU BLITZ ALL NIGHT! DONT LET THEM GAIN ANOTHER SPOT!

t's the figure skating of the car world. It isn't speed skating .

Lmao yep

 

[RacingGrandpa]

Read the answers to this and nobody seems to remember Loeb drifting his WTCC Citroen around the macau Hairpin... Looking for the video!

Here it is:

 

[juanito0585]

Here it is:

Does the video plays for you? I get a message saying it´s not available (private)

 

[RacingGrandpa]

Does the video plays for you? I get a message saying it´s not available (private)

It played on the site it was embedded on...
Here is another Citroen at Macau, using the same trick:

 

[250Cal]

Gilles Panizzi. During a timed stage.