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There were quite a few posts in the T500 thread involving the logitech wheels and since they were off topic, I figured I would bring it up here and see if interest in the subject continues.
A little basic info on the subject: the Logitech G27 is misssing some features in GT5 that appear conspicuously like an intentional nerf of the product.
The L3 and R3 (outside red buttons on the shifter) do not work at all but they did in GT5P. They simply don't respond in GT5. Button that USED to work have been effectively "turned off" leaving the G27 somewhaht tight on buttons.
The bottom 4 buttons oon the wheel don't work at all, they did in GT5P albeit they were repeates (ie all 6 buttons only counted as L2 or and R2 on respective sides of the wheel). This proves that the PS3 (and thus any games running on it) can detect those buttons.
You cannot access the RA menu from a G27 but you can from a G25. When assigned to any button, the RA Menu function does nothing.
So basically the G25 works as it should across the board, the G27 is crippled on a few fronts.
PD have said that isues with Logitech are due to firmware operations or otherwise pointed the fimger at Logitech for G25/G27 however none of that seems to hold up as the only specific issue ever brought up was shifting which ahs somehow been fixed despite Logitech not releasing any fimware to fix it. The rest of the issue is simply button functionality and the buttons on the G27 work in other games (including GT5P) so it isn't like the PS3 just can't see the buttons or anything.
With the upcoming Thrustmaster wheel it seems awfully coincidental that the G27 is missing some very strange functionality, but it seems very convenient that it nerfs arguably the T500's biggest competitor in a non critical but quite annoying way...
Add on top of this that the T500 H shifter won't be out for a few months after the wheel/pedals will and the wheel seems to be kind of shy on buttons by itself and it seems perhaps nerfing some buttons avoid the G27 from actually being better than the T500 right out of the box.
One might wonder why the G25 wouldn't get a nerf also but since it's not manufactured anymore, it's not really a marketplace competitor for the T500 and actually the fact that it works kind of strenghthens my belief that it's an intentional hit from PD on the G27 as it's obviously possible to get a wheel with less buttons and functions completely supported.
This is all considering that the wheel works fine in other games on the PS3 and on the PC (so it's again not just a case of the PS3 can't use certain buttons) and logitechs own staff have said that button mapping (and what's available) is up to the game devs:
http://forums.logitech.com/t5/PLAYSTATION-3-READ-ONLY-ARCHIVE/G27-Button-Map/td-p/404863
And it really seems like PD have played some dirty poker here with the G27...
There were some ideas thrown around but I think a lot of them were from people who don't really understand the sitaution or the technology. For instance:
How do you know it's not logitechs fault some buttons don't work?
Because these buttons work in other games. This proves the PS3 can read these buttons and they are then accessible to all games, if a certain game chooses to ignore a button, that means the game was programmed this way.
It's Logitechs fault for releasing a wheel that was not compatible with GT5P AFTER GT5P was released
This isn't really anybodies fault per se as much as it is the fact that a standard can't be accounted for before it's put into use. GT5P was designed to work with what was out there and didn't/couldn't know what was coming down the pipes in the future so was not coded to use some future peripherals. The G27 was released to a standard that GT5P was not programmed to and it was just a timing issue. Why GT5P was never patched to fully support G27 is another question entirely and this has nothing to do with why things don't work in GT5.
It's not on purpose, it's just how things worked out, PD made the game work with G25 logitech made the G27 a little different causing problems
This is a two fold issue, 1 it in no way explains what happened to the L3 and R3 buttons on the G27 between GT5P and GT5 - it's one thing to believe it just hasn't ever been fixed, but it DID work and now doesn't... that excludes the explanation it was just an oversite in the progression of hardware.
2 The way peripherals work is each button is assigned a name (Button1 Button2 Button3 for example) and each analogue is assigned an axis (Z axis, Y axis etc for example) it's possible button names were changed (maybe it's changed form Button5 to Hat1) between hardware but it's not at all a hard thing to simply include these changes in button names and start accepting them. This also goes against the fact that functionality was lost from GT5P to GT5 when nothing about the wheel (and thus nothing about the button names) changed. And again, we know the PS3 can "see" all the buttons and analogue inputs becuase they work in other games.
RA menu doesn't work because there is no dial on a G27
RA menu doens't need a dial and it works on the G25. Even when programmed to a button that work for other stuff on the G27 the RA menu doesn't work. This is proof that PD are EXCLUDING it from working on the G27... the button ID that works for "look back" does nothing for RA. This means the game has been intentionally prgorammed to recognize that it's a G27 and then ignore the RA menu command entirely and there isn't really any explanation that could be made as to how this isn't intentional.
Why wasn't the G25 nerfedf also then?
The G25 is no longer in production and the G27 is the closest mainstream competitor to the T500. Honestly when people look at a higher end wheel most will be considering the T500 or G27 a their options.
Why not nerf something big like the gas pedal then?
Totally breaking functionality would draw a lot of heat on PD and ruin their plausible deniability. They would not be able to point the finger so easily at logitech and get away with it and it would draw a lot of ire from G27 owners who were now entirely out in the cold. Nerfing non critical fucntions and leaving the wheel still technically working but a less desireable option is what PD would be shooting for... it gives the consumer a place to make a choice and the hope would be the choice is to pay more for the 100% one than risk that the 90% wheels missing functions would ultimately be regretted. Most people work that way and will pay extra to hedge their fears.
What about the Fanatec wheels?
The Fanatec wheel use a dongle which is customizeable and essentially emulates other controllers, it would be hard if not impossible to nerf the Fanatec wheels without nerfing the legit controllers as well as the Fanatec can simply be update to mimic any other controller type with it's inputs.
This is all opinion, there is no fact behind it.
I beg to differ.. there is a lot of fact. The facts of what worked in GT5P and GT5 respectively between the wheels is not arguable, it just is. And if you understand how peripherals work and interact with the OS as well as how a program access peripheral inputs via the OS you can see that there are no explanations for these issues other than that they were intentional.
Why don't you blame logitech for not releasing a firmware update to fix the issue?
Because Logitech shouldn't have to and I am not even sure the G27 is user FW upgradeable.
But more to the point, if PD has done something non standard that means a standard wheel won't work with GT5, then that means any changes to "fix" the wheel would render it non standard and likely break it for other games. Imagine if you bought a TV with a non standard plug and the company said "well just change the plugs in your house to fit our non standard plug" obviously not a desireable solution.
But these aren't official GT5 wheels, PD never promised anything.
True and it's pretty sad that it's come down to "but I didn't promise" as a legitimate reasoning tactic...
But the point isn't whether anything was promised, but rather if PD DID nerf the G27 on purpose, it's arguably a pretty dirty thing to do and I doubt many could honestly say they feel it's something a "good" company like PD is often protrayed to be would do.
You can assign RA to the controller and use it with the G27.
True, this is a workaround however it does not mean the wheel wasn't nerfed. It also stands to be a check mark favoring the T500 assuming it CAN access the RA menu. Also worth noting, setting up RA menu on your controller makes it difficult to swap using the controller to race instead of a wheel as your buttons are now probably messed up.
For those who find this interesting, here is an easy to read starter on perpheral connections
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_interface_device
And if you are a real masochist and want a HUGE WOT, here is a more detailed explanation of the generalities of mapping inputs.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=4454089&posted=1#post4453402
So that's my long winded post and what I think... what do you all think?
A little basic info on the subject: the Logitech G27 is misssing some features in GT5 that appear conspicuously like an intentional nerf of the product.
The L3 and R3 (outside red buttons on the shifter) do not work at all but they did in GT5P. They simply don't respond in GT5. Button that USED to work have been effectively "turned off" leaving the G27 somewhaht tight on buttons.
The bottom 4 buttons oon the wheel don't work at all, they did in GT5P albeit they were repeates (ie all 6 buttons only counted as L2 or and R2 on respective sides of the wheel). This proves that the PS3 (and thus any games running on it) can detect those buttons.
You cannot access the RA menu from a G27 but you can from a G25. When assigned to any button, the RA Menu function does nothing.
So basically the G25 works as it should across the board, the G27 is crippled on a few fronts.
PD have said that isues with Logitech are due to firmware operations or otherwise pointed the fimger at Logitech for G25/G27 however none of that seems to hold up as the only specific issue ever brought up was shifting which ahs somehow been fixed despite Logitech not releasing any fimware to fix it. The rest of the issue is simply button functionality and the buttons on the G27 work in other games (including GT5P) so it isn't like the PS3 just can't see the buttons or anything.
With the upcoming Thrustmaster wheel it seems awfully coincidental that the G27 is missing some very strange functionality, but it seems very convenient that it nerfs arguably the T500's biggest competitor in a non critical but quite annoying way...
Add on top of this that the T500 H shifter won't be out for a few months after the wheel/pedals will and the wheel seems to be kind of shy on buttons by itself and it seems perhaps nerfing some buttons avoid the G27 from actually being better than the T500 right out of the box.
One might wonder why the G25 wouldn't get a nerf also but since it's not manufactured anymore, it's not really a marketplace competitor for the T500 and actually the fact that it works kind of strenghthens my belief that it's an intentional hit from PD on the G27 as it's obviously possible to get a wheel with less buttons and functions completely supported.
This is all considering that the wheel works fine in other games on the PS3 and on the PC (so it's again not just a case of the PS3 can't use certain buttons) and logitechs own staff have said that button mapping (and what's available) is up to the game devs:
http://forums.logitech.com/t5/PLAYSTATION-3-READ-ONLY-ARCHIVE/G27-Button-Map/td-p/404863
And it really seems like PD have played some dirty poker here with the G27...
There were some ideas thrown around but I think a lot of them were from people who don't really understand the sitaution or the technology. For instance:
How do you know it's not logitechs fault some buttons don't work?
Because these buttons work in other games. This proves the PS3 can read these buttons and they are then accessible to all games, if a certain game chooses to ignore a button, that means the game was programmed this way.
It's Logitechs fault for releasing a wheel that was not compatible with GT5P AFTER GT5P was released
This isn't really anybodies fault per se as much as it is the fact that a standard can't be accounted for before it's put into use. GT5P was designed to work with what was out there and didn't/couldn't know what was coming down the pipes in the future so was not coded to use some future peripherals. The G27 was released to a standard that GT5P was not programmed to and it was just a timing issue. Why GT5P was never patched to fully support G27 is another question entirely and this has nothing to do with why things don't work in GT5.
It's not on purpose, it's just how things worked out, PD made the game work with G25 logitech made the G27 a little different causing problems
This is a two fold issue, 1 it in no way explains what happened to the L3 and R3 buttons on the G27 between GT5P and GT5 - it's one thing to believe it just hasn't ever been fixed, but it DID work and now doesn't... that excludes the explanation it was just an oversite in the progression of hardware.
2 The way peripherals work is each button is assigned a name (Button1 Button2 Button3 for example) and each analogue is assigned an axis (Z axis, Y axis etc for example) it's possible button names were changed (maybe it's changed form Button5 to Hat1) between hardware but it's not at all a hard thing to simply include these changes in button names and start accepting them. This also goes against the fact that functionality was lost from GT5P to GT5 when nothing about the wheel (and thus nothing about the button names) changed. And again, we know the PS3 can "see" all the buttons and analogue inputs becuase they work in other games.
RA menu doesn't work because there is no dial on a G27
RA menu doens't need a dial and it works on the G25. Even when programmed to a button that work for other stuff on the G27 the RA menu doesn't work. This is proof that PD are EXCLUDING it from working on the G27... the button ID that works for "look back" does nothing for RA. This means the game has been intentionally prgorammed to recognize that it's a G27 and then ignore the RA menu command entirely and there isn't really any explanation that could be made as to how this isn't intentional.
Why wasn't the G25 nerfedf also then?
The G25 is no longer in production and the G27 is the closest mainstream competitor to the T500. Honestly when people look at a higher end wheel most will be considering the T500 or G27 a their options.
Why not nerf something big like the gas pedal then?
Totally breaking functionality would draw a lot of heat on PD and ruin their plausible deniability. They would not be able to point the finger so easily at logitech and get away with it and it would draw a lot of ire from G27 owners who were now entirely out in the cold. Nerfing non critical fucntions and leaving the wheel still technically working but a less desireable option is what PD would be shooting for... it gives the consumer a place to make a choice and the hope would be the choice is to pay more for the 100% one than risk that the 90% wheels missing functions would ultimately be regretted. Most people work that way and will pay extra to hedge their fears.
What about the Fanatec wheels?
The Fanatec wheel use a dongle which is customizeable and essentially emulates other controllers, it would be hard if not impossible to nerf the Fanatec wheels without nerfing the legit controllers as well as the Fanatec can simply be update to mimic any other controller type with it's inputs.
This is all opinion, there is no fact behind it.
I beg to differ.. there is a lot of fact. The facts of what worked in GT5P and GT5 respectively between the wheels is not arguable, it just is. And if you understand how peripherals work and interact with the OS as well as how a program access peripheral inputs via the OS you can see that there are no explanations for these issues other than that they were intentional.
Why don't you blame logitech for not releasing a firmware update to fix the issue?
Because Logitech shouldn't have to and I am not even sure the G27 is user FW upgradeable.
But more to the point, if PD has done something non standard that means a standard wheel won't work with GT5, then that means any changes to "fix" the wheel would render it non standard and likely break it for other games. Imagine if you bought a TV with a non standard plug and the company said "well just change the plugs in your house to fit our non standard plug" obviously not a desireable solution.
But these aren't official GT5 wheels, PD never promised anything.
True and it's pretty sad that it's come down to "but I didn't promise" as a legitimate reasoning tactic...
But the point isn't whether anything was promised, but rather if PD DID nerf the G27 on purpose, it's arguably a pretty dirty thing to do and I doubt many could honestly say they feel it's something a "good" company like PD is often protrayed to be would do.
You can assign RA to the controller and use it with the G27.
True, this is a workaround however it does not mean the wheel wasn't nerfed. It also stands to be a check mark favoring the T500 assuming it CAN access the RA menu. Also worth noting, setting up RA menu on your controller makes it difficult to swap using the controller to race instead of a wheel as your buttons are now probably messed up.
For those who find this interesting, here is an easy to read starter on perpheral connections
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_interface_device
And if you are a real masochist and want a HUGE WOT, here is a more detailed explanation of the generalities of mapping inputs.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=4454089&posted=1#post4453402
So that's my long winded post and what I think... what do you all think?
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