Did PD intentionally nerf the G27 to artificially favor the T500?

[Rocket Punch]

Did PD intentionally nerf the G27 to artificially favor the T500? Reply to Thread

G27 was NEVER an officially supported wheel. Just saying.

How can you say someone "nerf" a non supported product just so they can favor an "officially" supported product? That doesn't even makes sense.....

 

[Spagetti69]

G27 was NEVER an officially supported wheel. Just saying.

How can you say someone "nerf" a non supported product just so they can favor an "officially" supported product? That doesn't even makes sense.....

Well it would be stupid to nerf an official product wouldn't it.
Mind you.......

 

[JJ72]

Funny thing, if Fanatec can give their wheel a G25 emulation mode, why couldn't Logitech do the same for the G27?

And just because a PC is a must-have item for the sim-racing crowd, doesn't mean GT5 has to be released on the PC, either.

A lot of people like to say "it must have this", "it must have that". Yup. Lack of a lot of "must haves" really hurt the iPad.

A product is a product. It'll do what it'll do. If it has no good points, people won't buy it. Plain and simple.

Fanatec has an internal firmware upgrade ability hence it can do that, G27 doesn't. It is always the software maker that take cares of the compatability issue but not the other way around.

You are using a strange analogy here, since whether GT5 is on the PC has no direct influence on the user's experience, it's just a difference of platforms, where as the support of a wheel has direct influence on the user's core experience - the driving and convenience operating the real time controls.

the Ipad......irrelevant comparison really?

As it is a product, user reviews and opinion is a valuable feedback, especially when a game can be patched online, we have long moved from the way of one directional consumer-producer relationship.

 

[simplygriff]

I feel like the OP is dead on the money. The G27 is deliberately being held back. The game knows exactly what wheel you're using as evidenced by the GT Academy results being able to tell me I'm using a 900 degree wheel with a H-gated shifter and clutch.

Since this is our tinfoil hat thread,I wonder if any other wheels have issues with hitting 2nd gear consistently?

http://forums.logitech.com/t5/Conso...d-gear-in-gran-turismo-5/td-p/522775?nobounce

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=131798
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=137122
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=137694

I've run into this issue a few times, it's getting better because I'm slowing down and holding the clutch longer, but in real life and other games, I've never had to do that. Can any other wheel users from other brands chime in?

I feel like the 1st to 2nd issue is really the most pressing. This is more than just an infrequent annoyance. It truly distracts from the game. It's pretty lame to tell friends who come over to play "Oh yeah, shifting to second is broken so adjust accordingly. No, it's not the wheel setup, it's the Brand New Game."
-G

 

[LaBounti]

I feel like the OP is dead on the money. The G27 is deliberately being held back.

I agree but not because of the T500.

 

[12thgear]

It is self-proclaimed the real driving simulator and tailored to the "serious" crowd, the G25/G27 has been a staple in mid-level sim racing wheels and has been for some time, it is not the most popular wheel, but it is still very popular.

Support for G25/G27 should be mandatory, given that this game sells multi-millions and has full AAA budget, it is indeed an exception among racing sims that a wheel this popular isn't fully supported.

"The real driving simulator" is nothing more than marketing speak. As a "serious" sim you'd expect it to fully support the G25/G27. Yet it doesn't. GT5 is full of glaring oversights.

Unfortunately, as you noted the game has sold multi-millions. From a sales perspective it looks like PD didn't have to do anything.

It is a MUST, it's the business's standard, there's no excuse. Especially when the software driving Logitech hardware already exists and they only need to create a profile for it....that's half day's work.

There are plenty of excuses. It could have been an oversight. Or with all the other work they had to do to finally ship the game, PD may have decided that the G25 and G27 were functional enough. You can drive with them. Ship now, patch later, which unfortunately is getting more common.

As for "half a day's work", that's pretty absurd. On paper it sounds logical enough, but any programmer will tell you that dropping in a seemingly simple piece of code can affect a number of different things and can require some pretty extensive testing.

None of this means you have to accept or like the outcome. It is what it is.

 

[peekay]

It's a credible theory, PD have form for doing this sort of thing. The old red MOMO Force wheel worked fine in GT3 but didn't work at all in GT4P and GT4 (when the DPF was launched). It then worked fine in GT5P (haven't tried it in GT5) which made me wonder whether it was deliberately nobbled for GT4P and GT4 to promote sales of the DFP..

 

[TravisTejas]

It's a credible theory, PD have form for doing this sort of thing. The old red MOMO Force wheel worked fine in GT3 but didn't work at all in GT4P and GT4 (when the DPF was launched). It then worked fine in GT5P (haven't tried it in GT5) which made me wonder whether it was deliberately nobbled for GT4P and GT4 to promote sales of the DFP..

Very interesting... makes it seem like that may be the case here, the parallels are there.

 

[alexleighton]

100% support what the OP says here. "Official" things and busyness/marketing people ruin everything, I think it's just a reality we have to deal with.

The thought of buying a T500 simply hasn't crossed my mind, it's just too expensive. But if I come across a pile of money lying in the snow later today, I think I'll order the new Fanatec wheel.

 

[Devedander]

Because the development of GT5 has cost Sony a great deal of money, 50 million USD is a conservative bet, they own the trademark on the GT brand and it is their good right to do any deal they want with 3rd parties selling branded products.

As far as I can tell no G27 owner is worse off than a G25 owner,

and it really isn't a great deal mapping some buttons on a DS controller.

There's a lot of drama for little reason. And everyone can fix this "problem" easily and with minimum fuzz.

Please re read the OP.

Please explain to me how to fix my non working L3 and R3 buttons and how to fix the fact that the G27 does not allow me to bring up RA menu from any of the buttons on the wheel.

But T500 isn't G27 competitor neither DF GT is. Looking at price tag, T500 is twice the prize of G27. When asked Kaz said on twitter the support for G27 is coming.

Actually it is. It's a solid, quality built wheel, with clutch and H shifter. You can't say they aren't competition because of a price difference... they are the most worrisome kind of competition for a company: A similar product for a much lower price.

Maybe its because neither the G25 or G27 are officially supported. The G25 on the other hand, when it detects a game that doesn't support it, it reports to the game as a Driving Force Pro, and is compatible that way. Hence why when you change settings on the DFP options, it affects the G25. The G27 doesn't have this same functionality built into it, therefore its left floundering.

This is not how peripherals work. There is no such thing as a "not supported" flag and the peripheral does not then change it's mode to something else. I suppose it's possible, but it's a total cart before the horse scenario.

As I stated in my OP, I think opinions like yours come from a lack of understanding of how the tech works and how the peripherals register with the OS and function through it.

I think there's one explanation the OP has failed to take into account...

He seems determined to accept this as ONLY deliberate mischief. Step back a bit, look at the game in its' entirety, and another explanation becomes possible.

STUPIDITY!​

While I agree PD has made some really boneheaded decisions lately, I don't see how stupidity can result in the L3 and R3 buttons working in GT5P but then not working in GT5... you can't really stupidly turn off a buttons support, it has to be done intentionally and if an accident is very easy to revert with a patch.

It sounds like PD asked Logitech to modify bits for the G27 and I guess they said no as they already make a wheel specially designed for GT games. So maybe Thrustmaster contacted PD and said they would do whatever they wanted to make the wheel work 100% and the deal was done. It will be interesting to see if a new GT budget wheel option gets made by Thrustmaster or whether PD still have any tie in with Logitech.

The rumor is this is how it happened with the shifting which makes little sense... PD essentially told logitech "fix your product that works with every other game, including very high end respected games like iRacing, because it doesn't work with our game". To me that says more that PD was doing something wrong and wanted logitech to change their entire product line to support PDs flaw. This would be the equivalent of Comcast telling Sony "change your TV to use letters instead of numbers, we have decided to use letters to identify our stations and not numbers".

This is backed up by the fact that magically the shift problem has been taken care of despite logitech not changing anything about their wheels.

To the OP, this is how business opperates, Thrustmaster obviously brought something to the table that Logitech couldn't or wouldn't.

And since PD/Sony never stated that the G25/27 would be fully supported they have done nothing wrong, pretty simple really.
Might not seem right or fair for anyone that has bought a G27 especially for GT5, but no promises or laws have been broken, although I do recall seeing a few people on here offering advice to prospective buyers that it "should work ok".

And let me ask, do the Fanatec wheels suffer these problems? If not then this whole thread is a red herring !

I would ask how turning off buttons that USED to work in GT5P is not doing something wrong? It's one thing to say "we don't officially support it, so it does what it does" but when it DID do it before but doens't now, that's not the same thing at all. Please read the OP again.

As for Fanatec, also please read the OP again. Fanatec operates diferently than logitech - they emulate another device and their product is specifically designed to be easily updated so that if PD DID block what they use now, they could effectively simply move to emulate another device that isn't blocked.

While there are certainly signs that point to the possibility of collusion, there are some things that would negate this.

Remember, as early as GT5P, we were having issues with the loss of force-feedback as compared to GT4. And there were compatibility issues with the G25 (covered by the system reading it as a DFGT) and other signs that Polyphony Digital and Logitech were not both going in the same direction with Gran Turismo and the Logitech wheel.

Honestly when looking at the big picture, how everyone else gets these wheels to work just fine with their games with little fuss, I have to say if anyone is making the bad moves, it's PD as they are the odd man out in the "what's different between the situations where it works and doesn't" picture.

It's entirely possible for GT5 to not have the same hardware compatibilities as GT5P. They're not exactly the same game.

Actually that doesn't make much sense... the wheel registers with the OS and the button/axis status is reported to the OS and made available to poll by the software. Since other games can successfully poll this info we know it's supported by the OS (and thus a problem with the game if not supported in game) and since Logitech changed nothing about the wheel between GT5P and GT5 (and you can even swap back and forth between games to verify) the change had to happen on the PD end to make anything not work that used to work.

Not all wheels are built the same. There is no practical reason for the button maps for new Logitech wheels to not be 100% compatible with older Logitech wheels. Yet they aren't. That's the long and short of it. Video games are made to be as compatible with as many peripherals as possible, but if a developer decides not to focus on minor button functionality for one peripheral while developing an in-depth force-feedback system for another, that's their call, isn't it?

Please re read my OP and see if the order in which things happen and the logical circumstances don't clear that up.

Yes. Nobody ever promised 100% compatibility between the G27 and GT5. They didn't even promise full compatibility for GT5P. Annoying, but them's the breaks. It could be worse.

And when they do patch it... whoops... there goes that theory...

Again, there is a difference between "didn't promisef anything" and "it worked and now it's broken".

Also IF they patch it, then there goes that theory... unless of course the patch comes way down the road and initial sales of the T500 were helped all the same. I know Kaz has said he want's to keep working on G25/27 support, but he also wanted to patch damage into GT5P and remember PD is very good about saying they "want to" or "intend" to because it means they weren't lying if they never do.

And again considering how pretty much every other game manages to easily incorporate the G27 quickly and fully it makes no sense that it should take this long or be so arduous that they need to keep working on it. It's kind of like a construction company saying "we would like to keep working on installing wall plates on your switches" after 6 years of building your house...

Funny thing, if Fanatec can give their wheel a G25 emulation mode, why couldn't Logitech do the same for the G27?

And just because a PC is a must-have item for the sim-racing crowd, doesn't mean GT5 has to be released on the PC, either.

A lot of people like to say "it must have this", "it must have that". Yup. Lack of a lot of "must haves" really hurt the iPad.

A product is a product. It'll do what it'll do. If it has no good points, people won't buy it. Plain and simple.

Fanatec can because they designed their wheel exactly with that purpose in mind. Their very funcitonal model involves emulating other devices so as to be compatible.

Logitech COULD but didn't because they shouldn't have to. Logitech designed a completely functional and compatible wheel that works on PS3. PD then did not impliment some functions. There is no way logitech could have a: seen that coming and b: should have to go through the extra expense of adding an emulation mode just to defeate PD at some game of "block the device".

So the short answer to your question is Logitech didn't shouldn't have to, it costs more to do so, and it's only necessary if someone plays dirty poker to mess with your device.

G27 was NEVER an officially supported wheel. Just saying.

How can you say someone "nerf" a non supported product just so they can favor an "officially" supported product? That doesn't even makes sense.....

Because the feature USED to work in GT5P but then no longer doesin GT5.

Please read the OP, it's all explained there.

 

[niky]

I would say that assembling a whole conspiracy theory to accuse people of business misconduct and conspiracy-like behavioirs without a shred of evidence is not exactly "gentlemanlike" as well.

Then argue against the points brought up. The thread was posted in the form of a question to invite open discussion. I appreciate the attempt at humor, but let's try to stay on the ball.

Fanatec has an internal firmware upgrade ability hence it can do that, G27 doesn't. It is always the software maker that take cares of the compatability issue but not the other way around.

Why should they? I've been gaming for decades, and it annoys me no end that no two peripheral makers share the same idea of what signal is supposed to do what. Play a shooter with a gun peripheral on a console? Good luck getting full compatibility out-of-the-box... or at all.

The way it should be is that the console maker has a set code for control inputs and peripheral makers follow it, or don't market the peripherals for the console (or a particular game) at all. I've bought/used/chucked out dozens of peripherals that either interacted poorly or not-at-all with the consoles and games they were built to interact with... even with mode switches, emulation and whatnot.

You are using a strange analogy here, since whether GT5 is on the PC has no direct influence on the user's experience, it's just a difference of platforms, where as the support of a wheel has direct influence on the user's core experience - the driving and convenience operating the real time controls.

The support of one wheel. Not all. The G27 isn't the only wheel out there. Saying that PD should support it because it's the best/most popular is like saying that GT5 should come out on the PC because it is the best system.

the Ipad......irrelevant comparison really?

Many people have slated the iPad for not having features that are necessary for a mobile device. Features that supposedly cripple it as a multimedia tablet. Lack of SD support, lack of 3G support (fixed with the new iPad), etcetera. That makes it a product that many have opined (myself included) is absolutely worthless. Guess what? It isn't. The missing features and compatibilities are sore points, but it's still a stellar product. Same with GT5. Both have tremendous flaws in certain areas. Both sell like hotcakes. Like so:

From a sales perspective it looks like PD didn't have to do anything.

As it is a product, user reviews and opinion is a valuable feedback, especially when a game can be patched online, we have long moved from the way of one directional consumer-producer relationship.

Which means a patch is on the way. Great, isn't it? I don't envy programmers who have to work with and debug code for a bewildering array of peripherals with a zillion little differences. Those differences shouldn't be there in the first place, and yet they are. That the G27 actually works with GT5 means that they have at least ensured that much. Other gaming companies don't even try. They force users to use a specific peripheral and it's up to competitors to build peripherals that utilize the same output codes.

Still... I wouldn't close the books on this one until we see whether or not a patch is in the works for GT5. Personally, I don't care that much. After the failure of my G25, I'm not in a hurry to buy another expensive piece of equipment only to burn it out playing yet another epic enduro.

EDIT:

And again considering how pretty much every other game manages to easily incorporate the G27 quickly and fully it makes no sense that it should take this long or be so arduous that they need to keep working on it. It's kind of like a construction company saying "we would like to keep working on installing wall plates on your switches" after 6 years of building your house...

And we're surprised by PD dropping the ball on the button functionality when they're having trouble implementing shadows correctly, still have issues with typos and misprints inside the game, have had to patch to update the physics, forgot to add a backup save option from the beginning and etcetera ad nauseum? The problem with this theory is that it requires PD to very cleverly block off two buttons from the G27 with a bit of software code, when they can't very cleverly get the rest of the game programming 100% right.

As for Fanatec, also please read the OP again. Fanatec operates diferently than logitech - they emulate another device and their product is specifically designed to be easily updated so that if PD DID block what they use now, they could effectively simply move to emulate another device that isn't blocked.

The thing that still bothers me about this claim. If Fanatec has no issues... what's wrong with the G27? Why couldn't Logitech also include a DFGT emulation mode for older games that might have been built with the DFGT in mind? It would have cost them almost nothing to add that to the wheel, and would have ensured G25-level compatibility with GT5... as well as a few older titles, as well.

 

[Devedander]

Why should they? I've been gaming for decades, and it annoys me no end that no two peripheral makers share the same idea of what signal is supposed to do what. Play a shooter with a gun peripheral on a console? Good luck getting full compatibility out-of-the-box... or at all.

The way it should be is that the console maker has a set code for control inputs and peripheral makers follow it, or don't market the peripherals for the console (or a particular game) at all. I've bought/used/chucked out dozens of peripherals that either interacted poorly or not-at-all with the consoles and games they were built to interact with... even with mode switches, emulation and whatnot.

There is a HID device standard for communications however you have to be careful what you ask for... when you force a global standard you limit everyone to that standard and there will always be something left out that makes things not as good as they could be.

For instance the tach lights on the G27, if a standard is arrived at before such an idea is come up with, that idea is blocked entirely from ever happening until the standard is upgrade.

There are HID input standards that work towards this kind of uniformity, however the problem is the "standard" way that covers a lot of things is almost never the "best" way for any one thing.

As is that's why we have drivers and OS's... the drivers allow any device to talk to an OS that supports it via a driver, the OS then standardizes the inputs and makes them pollable by any software running.

This is quite certainly how it happens on the PS3 and why I say that any game that does not support all the buttons has no one to blame but the game maker as clearly the PS3 OS is making those inputs pollable and accessible.

I am certain that when Logitech stamped "Compatible with PS3" on the box, that means they have checked and that their product conforms to specifications set forth by Sony on the PS3 such that all it's functions are available to the system. Again this means any functions that don't get used are an issue with the game maker, not the hardware.

 

[W3H5]

Just a thought, and one i haven't kept tabs on while reading this thread (for as long as it's been here) but isn't the the DFGT branded with the GT logo?
Does it not say that it is 100% compatible with GT5? (maybe not)
I have too much beer to check it out now but I'm sure when considering buying one, on all web-sites I saw GT5-compatable. I may just be drunk but I'm sure I would've looked into this before buying and was sure the DFGT was/is compatable with GT5 according to it's specs. (Logitech.com)
I may be wrong, my memory fades fast, I haven't been there for a week.
What was I rabbiting about....?
Again agree with the OP. This TM wheel, I may consider buying, is nearly half a months salary for me. Do they expect to muscle kids without income into buying this because they want a full sim experience?
Shame on you PD. (I might take that back when the RA options are patched back in!)

 

[FLIGHT50]

This is all considering that the wheel works fine in other games on the PS3 and on the PC (so it's again not just a case of the PS3 can't use certain buttons) and logitechs own staff have said that button mapping (and what's available) is up to the game devs:

So true. I can map every single button in F1 2010. Also what every one fails to realize is that its up to the game developer to make the game work with this wheel. Logitech just makes it. If logitech had to make the wheel work with games, there would be updates and downloads with every new racing title that comes out. Code the game to work with the hardware. Simple as that. Only real differences in the G25/G27 is the motor and the sequential shifter removal. Everything else I am sure wasn't changed.

Theory makes sense though. Why would PD hamper sales for their wheel when they can just make a game that won't work for the nearest competitor's wheel. They will never admit it, but the didn't support it for a reason.

 

[JJ72]

Why should they? I've been gaming for decades, and it annoys me no end that no two peripheral makers share the same idea of what signal is supposed to do what. Play a shooter with a gun peripheral on a console? Good luck getting full compatibility out-of-the-box... or at all.

The support of one wheel. Not all. The G27 isn't the only wheel out there. Saying that PD should support it because it's the best/most popular is like saying that GT5 should come out on the PC because it is the best system.

wheel support is a lot easier than what you brought up as a comparison, it's afterall, 3 axles, and some buttons. and there ain't that much buttons on the G27.

And why shouldn't GT5 come out on the PC? so far it is just strictly commerical reasons. I believe good things should be made accessible, not difficult, never a fan of exclusives.

(btw I skipped your entire Ipad post because I don't care about that product nor I know anything about it, and what's with the green text?)

 

[chromatic9]

I feel like the OP is dead on the money. The G27 is deliberately being held back. The game knows exactly what wheel you're using as evidenced by the GT Academy results being able to tell me I'm using a 900 degree wheel with a H-gated shifter and clutch.

NooktheCrook View Post
Since this is our tinfoil hat thread,I wonder if any other wheels have issues with hitting 2nd gear consistently?

http://forums.logitech.com/t5/Consol...22775?nobounce

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=131798
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=137122
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=137694

I've run into this issue a few times, it's getting better because I'm slowing down and holding the clutch longer, but in real life and other games, I've never had to do that. Can any other wheel users from other brands chime in?

I feel like the 1st to 2nd issue is really the most pressing. This is more than just an infrequent annoyance. It truly distracts from the game. It's pretty lame to tell friends who come over to play "Oh yeah, shifting to second is broken so adjust accordingly. No, it's not the wheel setup, it's the Brand New Game."
-G

Thats a problem we all have since 2008 in GT5P. PD updated the game to try and slow down clutch users and limit the advantage of the the slow auto shift of pad/Driving force pro users. You have to lift off the throttle when shifting. Also if your cars wheels are spinning you also get neutral even if you lift off throttle. It's very easy to spin the wheels in low gears so it takes time to learn and with practice becomes easy to deal with. I can imagine any newer user being extremely frustrated by this though. Drifting is a pain too.

It's an important issue but its only because PD implemented full use of a PC wheel back in 2007 to a console game. PD should add a clutch button for pad users.

 

[t.o.]

What about the Fanatec wheels?

The Fanatec wheel use a dongle which is customizeable and essentially emulates other controllers, it would be hard if not impossible to nerf the Fanatec wheels without nerfing the legit controllers as well as the Fanatec can simply be update to mimic any other controller type with it's inputs.

Interesting posts being made. Like a Tom Clancey book. lol.
However the OP made one mistake in his post. While the Fanatec can use a dongle it's not required to work with the PS3. I have my Fanatec connected directly to the PS3 with a USB cable. I don't have any dongles. So saying that the dongle does the work is false. The Fanatec "just works" without using any dongle, HOWEVER, it's not being used to it's fullest. Which I didn't expect anyway, let me rephrase this, the Fanatec's that work with both PS3 and 360 don't work to their fullest, and I didn't expect it to anyway. That would be promoting features unique to wheels that work with the 360 and god forbid they do that, much like some of those who post here about it. So that equates to all of us having less of an experience we could other wise have.

 

[niky]

Again this means any functions that don't get used are an issue with the game maker, not the hardware.

Reference again: With all the other problems in GT5, we're to expect they got everything else right? If GT5 were a fully realized product with no other flaws, you might have a point, but with how it was delayed for so long, with how they've had problems implementing features they wanted in from the beginning, and all the last minute changes Sony forced PD to implement, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt in this regard.

And why shouldn't GT5 come out on the PC? so far it is just strictly commerical reasons. I believe good things should be made accessible, not difficult, never a fan of exclusives.

The Gran Turismo series has always been a Playstation exclusive. It sells Playstations, which is why Sony works hard to keep it exclusive.

Would it be better on the PC? Arguably so. But it works as a PS3 release, and that's all they care about.

(btw I skipped your entire Ipad post because I don't care about that product nor I know anything about it, and what's with the green text?)

Everyone mocked the iPad for not doing things the "right" way. But once it came out, the rest of us shut up. It really is a terrific product once you've had some hands on time. Absolutely useless compared to a laptop... but who cares what's missing when what's there is so good?

I'm having my green period. Like Picasso, only less soothing.

 

[Devedander]

And we're surprised by PD dropping the ball on the button functionality when they're having trouble implementing shadows correctly, still have issues with typos and misprints inside the game, have had to patch to update the physics, forgot to add a backup save option from the beginning and etcetera ad nauseum? The problem with this theory is that it requires PD to very cleverly block off two buttons from the G27 with a bit of software code, when they can't very cleverly get the rest of the game programming 100% right.

As I pointed out before, this isn't a dropping the ball issue, it's a "used to work and now doesn't" issue. If PD just never got around to making the L3 and R3 work, then yeah I could see the argument "they are just dropping the ball" but they have got them working, then turned them off... there is no reason to have done so and if it was just an accidental code deletion, it would be nothing to patch back in.

Then look at the RA function... this is absolutely a cleverly blocked off feature just like you are saying... the buttons work for other things, but when you choose RA menu, suddenly that button doesn't work.

We know the button works for PS3 (works in other games). We know the button works for GT5 (works for other functions) we know that RA menu CAN be programmed to regular face buttons (works for every other input device).

BUT: when it's a G27, RA menu is suddenly not working.

It's VERY hard to believe that's not intentionally done. It's just too specific.

The thing that still bothers me about this claim. If Fanatec has no issues... what's wrong with the G27? Why couldn't Logitech also include a DFGT emulation mode for older games that might have been built with the DFGT in mind? It would have cost them almost nothing to add that to the wheel, and would have ensured G25-level compatibility with GT5... as well as a few older titles, as well.

Many reasons the least of which, why should they have to? Why, when designing the G27 which fully meets PS3 compatability standards, should logitech have to say "and just in case some game tries to block some features from this wheel specifically, we will throw in an option to emulate another wheel"? It's putting the onus on entirely the wrong party... and how are Logitech to know what will be blocked or broken? As for emulating a DFGT I am pretty sure that would be excluded by licensing alone and doesn't cover issues like a clutch axis or tach lights.

The Fanatec does emulation of controllers because that's how it was built (and at added cost I might add) and even then what they are doing it dodgy... they are using other peoples codes (presumeably) without permission.

As for ensuring GT5 compatability, again, they shouldn't have had to (let alone could they have done without psychic powers). The G27 is fully PS3 compatible, all buttons work and register with the PS3. The problem exists with the game, not the wheel. And interestingly enough, the G27 seems to work fine with older games.. Grid and Dirt 2 have not given me any problems...

Reference again: With all the other problems in GT5, we're to expect they got everything else right? If GT5 were a fully realized product with no other flaws, you might have a point, but with how it was delayed for so long, with how they've had problems implementing features they wanted in from the beginning, and all the last minute changes Sony forced PD to implement, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt in this regard.

[/color][/b]

I think you don't understand well how these things work... you keep bringing up things that are not comparable or really related as if everything in programing a game happens at one level and each facet is equally difficult.

You mentioned shadows being poor, that's a result of scaling down to work with hardware limitations and squeezing what you can out of it. There are other games with similarly wonky shadows and it's the same case on all fronts.

It's an entirely different matter to properly support a wheel as long as the OS supports it (which the PS3 does).

It's literally on par with a construction worker building a house and installing wall plates on switches. Even the most overworked and sloppy carpenter who can't hang a cabinet straight to save his life can install wall plates in a whole house in an hour.

It's certainly your call whether to give them the benefit of the doubt, however I have to say I think it's only out of lack of technical understanding behind the difficultly and feasibility of what we are seeing.

Oh and a follow up on the potential patch to come... I am hoping against hope that if enough people start seeing this nerfing and getting unhappy about it, it might convince PD to go ahead and turn back on full G27 support...

 

[JJ72]

Would it be better on the PC? Arguably so. But it works as a PS3 release, and that's all they care about.[/B]

So you agree PD should support the G27? Apparent you agreed that GT5 on PC isn't a bad thing and the only thing holding it back is commercial reasons. And that's your analogy.

 

[simplygriff]

Thats a problem we all have since 2008 in GT5P. PD updated the game to try and slow down clutch users and limit the advantage of the the slow auto shift of pad/Driving force pro users. You have to lift off the throttle when shifting. Also if your cars wheels are spinning you also get neutral even if you lift off throttle. It's very easy to spin the wheels in low gears so it takes time to learn and with practice becomes easy to deal with. I can imagine any newer user being extremely frustrated by this though. Drifting is a pain too.

It's an important issue but its only because PD implemented full use of a PC wheel back in 2007 to a console game. PD should add a clutch button for pad users.

I hadn't even considered wheel spin as being part of the issue. Thanks for the suggestion. Something else to keep in mind while trying to launch the car...
-G

 

[niky]

Of course I agree that they should, but since it isn't an official GT5 wheel, then I won't be surprised if they don't.

---

GT5P got the shadows right. If we're to follow your logic of GT5 naturally following from GT5P, the shadows would have to be perfect in GT5.

Yes, the wheel worked perfectly fine in GT5P. But GT5 isn't GT5P+. It's GT5. A completely different product, possibly written with new wheel software to support force feedback on the T500... which may mean entirely new code in that department.

The OS supports the wheel, yes, but there are so many different wheel variations that GT5 (and GT5P) require different settings for each one. If the wheel outputs were truly identical, then you wouldn't need multiple settings for different wheels!

 

[Devedander]

Of course I agree that they should, but since it isn't an official GT5 wheel, then I won't be surprised if they don't.

---

GT5P got the shadows right. If we're to follow your logic of GT5 naturally following from GT5P, the shadows would have to be perfect in GT5.

Yes, the wheel worked perfectly fine in GT5P. But GT5 isn't GT5P+. It's GT5. A completely different product, possibly written with new wheel software to support force feedback on the T500... which may mean entirely new code in that department.

The OS supports the wheel, yes, but there are so many different wheel variations that GT5 (and GT5P) require different settings for each one. If the wheel outputs were truly identical, then you wouldn't need multiple settings for different wheels!

Again you are confusing different areas of programming... the shadows in GT5 apparently suffer due to the dynamic lighting change from GT5P to GT5.

The G27 has not changed at all from GT5P to GT5.

So no, the logic doesn't follow because you are drawing parallels where they don't exist.

And no GT5 isn't a completely different product, it's a further refined and further built out GT5P. To say GT5 is a completely different product form GT5P is like saying BFBC with the Vietnam update is a completely different product form just BFBC2.

I mean if GT5 WERE a completely different product, it would have taken considerably longer between GT5P and GT5 than it did...

And the idea behind rewriting the wheel software... the terminology just doens't make sense and I have to say again (no offense) it pretty much says you don't really understand the topic.

To try and simplify it, if GT5P were a house, GT5 is the same house but with the finish put on, furnished and maybe an extention added on here or there.

Peripherals would be like setting up sewer and water - once done, putting the finishing touches on doesn't go ruining the existing infrastructure.

For things like buttons where the name hasn't changed, all you ever have to do is let your game recognize "button13" and treat it like any other button.

It's a shallow analogy but I can't think of any way to simplify the process down much more....

 

[cicua]

I am 100% with OP.

It is a plain example of a corp shafting the users, and I am sick of it.

Patch it soon, and I will happily take back these words. Otherwise I am pretty sure PD has seen the last $ from me. Tired of being ****ed up, that's how I feel about PD.

I would rather spend on another game than on any random wheel PD wants to stuff down my throat. No thanks. Say NO.

PS. My DS3 does not work inside GT5 when the G27 is attached. So I can not even use that DS3 button remapping which apparently works for others. Which means I have still not been able to turn ghost cars off, honk the horn, look left/right, not to speak of RA menu. And yes, I DO blame PD.

 

[Devedander]

PS. My DS3 does not work inside GT5 when the G27 is attached. So I can not even use that DS3 button remapping which apparently works for others. Which means I have still not been able to turn ghost cars off, honk the horn, look left/right, not to speak of RA menu. And yes, I DO blame PD.

Off topic, but it will work, you just have to bring up the XMB, go to Accessory settings and change it to controller 1. When a wheel is plugged in that defaults to 1and the DS3 will only work alongside a wheel if you switch it to controller 1. Also in general make sure the controller doesn't fall asleep or you will be fumbling with it mid race trying to do things while it doens't respond...

It's annoying the hoops one has to jump through.

 

[Rocket Punch]

I am 100% with OP.

It is a plain example of a corp shafting the users, and I am sick of it.

I don't get it why people just don't get it...LOL

Who is being shafted here? There is a difference between asking PD to give support to a non supported product and favoring one specific officially supported product among many.

G25/G27 was NEVER an officially supported wheel by this game. The fact that a lot of us is using it is because it just happens to work good enough for it.

T500 IS an officially supported wheel.

 

[JJ72]

I don't get it why people just don't get it...LOL

Who is being shafted here? There is a difference between asking PD to give support to a non supported product and favoring one specific officially supported product among many.

G25/G27 was NEVER an officially supported wheel by this game. The fact that a lot of us is using it is because it just happens to work good enough for it.

T500 IS an officially supported wheel.

LOL at the supporting an unsupported product statement........do you realize it is a tautology?

give me ONE reason PD shouldn't support a product it use to support perfectly, if that reason is to favor another affiliated product, it is against the laws on open competition. It's like if Microsoft disallowing Firefox on windows so IE always wins.

What's hard to get? The code is there, they worked out the support, and they just dropped it. And not to mention a AAA game of this caliber not having full controller support is unacceptable. It's THEIR job, they get paid for it.

 

[cicua]

Off topic, but it will work, you just have to ...

Thanks! Will try.

 

[c4birdiemaker]

Thx Dave for the great post. Couldn't have said it or written it better myself. I bought the g27 and a wheelstand pro from amazon just for this gm. As i was getting used to the wheel during "Shift's" final few weeks, PD delays the release of gt5 1 last time. I love the wheel, but the lack of working buttons does piss me off.
I wonder what wheel i would have bought if I knew the gm wouldn't be out until Nov. 21. Anyway, the wheelstand is great and I would rather have the g27 w/ a wheelstand and less functioning buttons, than a Thrustmaster clamped on a table. The Thrustmaster seems too incomplete to spend that much cash.

 

[Rocket Punch]

give me ONE reason PD shouldn't support a product it use to support perfectly, if that reason is to favor another affiliated product

...because they don't have to? You are essentially blaming PD for not supporting a non supported and start supporting an officially supported product?

Logitech already had an officially supported wheel designed specifcially for GT5, and now one from thrustmaster.

You DON'T have to like it and you have a choice to not buy their product. Hey look at the bright side you CAN always start another online petition. 👍