Different grade of tires: your experiences and opinions

[NCRthree]

Dino all stock, no aids on CH tires at Bathurst. Nice, really nice. Ran a long Arcade race last night like that, cockpit view no HUD.

I'd highly recommend equipping any Vintage with CH. Those oldies shouldn't feel like they're on rails, traction and braking should be an adventure.

This is an excellent topic. I agree PD should provide a factory tire recommendation.

 

[TexRex]

I'm not sure if I'd describe it as "right", more like "relatively easy". I can't see driving some of these super cars and simply dropping the pedal in second gear and getting no wheelspin without TC being enabled. CS introduces a real need for throttle control and more precise entry and exit lines to carry speed through the corner, as I suspect is necessary in the real cars. SH makes it all a little too easy IMO and the lap times reflect that.

Saw someone willingly using them in a Nurburgring track day room with no tire restriction, I was pleasantly surprised.

 

[Johnnypenso]

That's one of the best ideas I've ever heard!
👍

You do realize this is how PCars is designed right?

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Dino all stock, no aids on CH tires at Bathurst. Nice, really nice. Ran a long Arcade race last night like that, cockpit view no HUD.

I'd highly recommend equipping any Vintage with CH. Those oldies shouldn't feel like they're on rails, traction and braking should be an adventure.

This is an excellent topic. I agree PD should provide a factory tire recommendation.

Why can't PD give use control tire like in the old days of GT, make it a special tire tailored for the car, but it may be too much with over 1200 cars

 

[FordMKIVJ5]

Yes, if we are speaking of old LeMans cars, it would be Sport Hard.

I personally go even further - together with my racing buddies in online - because we have a phases when we do not use Racing Compound on any of racing cars - we use only Sport Hard for either SuperGT cars, LM cars, whatever.

Super Hard compound provides very convincing level of grip where there is no "superglue" effect as on Racing compound.

Thanks for the reply, I didn't get notified which is why I haven't responded sooner.

I've been looking at G numbers for CS on the MKIV at various tracks. The main issue is that the G-meter (not the one in data logger) seems inconsistent. On CS at Red Bull Ring the G-meter frequently went above the first notch and close to the second and when checked on data logger showed consistent readings of around 0.90-0.95G in the slower speed corners, with peaks of around 1.1 in faster corners where downforce kicks in. Suggesting each notch represents 0.50G.

Yet when I did the same at Cape Ring North on SS the meter went well above the second bar in the banked loop. Yet when I checked on data logger readings of over 2G were being given! Suggesting that each notch was 1G not 0.5 like on CS, so it seems like the G meter's scale changes? Unless I'm imagining things.

Tomorrow I will do some further testing using the skidpan at Streets of Willow on CS, SH, SM and SS. I will then set a lap at the track on each compound and compare the approximate lateral G shown on the G-meter with the lateral G shown in the data logger. IRL the car probably pulled around 1.1G on the skid pan.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

It may change according to the tire grip level, comfort, sports and racing tire

 

[sparkytooth]

You do realize this is how PCars is designed right?

PCars has a factory tyre option? Another reason I need a PS4.

 

[Johnnypenso]

PCars has a factory tyre option? Another reason I need a PS4.

It's more than that. I think the factory tire is the only option on most cars. I'm only going by what I read in posts, but I believe each car is modeled with the specific tires it rolled out of the factory with and perhaps another compound at least on some race cars. So a Lotus 49 for example will have tires that grip and behave like they did in 1967, not a generic tire model as in GT. There will be no slapping of racing softs on cars like in GT, at least that's my understanding of it. It's a sim from the ground up.

It's one of the things I'm most looking forward to, and one of the things I think will also turn off the majority of GT players. Not the true enthusiasts like yourself, but most of the casual players or those that almost exclusively play GT.

 

[jr93alty]

So how do you explaind that in GT5 you had to do the lap around Nurb with Sport Hards to get the trophy?

I don't explain it. I'm just saying that it's well known that ring times are often run on tires that sometimes aren't even street legal. I don't really care about some arbitrarily named tires on a video game. Race what you want. They aren't even consistent between cars. We're arguing over a game where you could once do endos under braking. It's just a game and the tires aren't real, the physics aren't real, etc. Stop comparing your times to pro times and using that to determine which tires are accurate. You don't drive the same in real life as you do in a video game.

 

[TexRex]

A lot of people talk about realism and tire compounds but don't even realize that when Nissan or whoever go out to try to set record times around the ring, they are not using oem tires, they are using racing tires for those low 7 and sub 7 minute lap times. But then you get on here and people act like you should only run a car like that on sports tires. The tire discussion is usually just elitists or traditionalists mocking people that don't care. Race what you want to race.

I don't explain it. I'm just saying that it's well known that ring times are often run on tires that sometimes aren't even street legal. I don't really care about some arbitrarily named tires on a video game. Race what you want. They aren't even consistent between cars. We're arguing over a game where you could once do endos under braking. It's just a game and the tires aren't real, the physics aren't real, etc. Stop comparing your times to pro times and using that to determine which tires are accurate. You don't drive the same in real life as you do in a video game.

The thread is for experiences and opinions to be discussed and some of those opinions express the desire to be as realistic as possible within the confines of this particular game. Your statement may have incited a question but it wasn't your statement itself that was being questioned. Kindly don't tell people that they shouldn't express their own opinions or describe their experiences or, for that matter, denigrate them for having said opinions and experiences. Nobody is telling you how to play the game, just how they play the game.
Please make your opinion known (as you have) and feel free to have a constructive conversation (read as: argument) regarding the matter.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I wonder how much the virtual world adds to lap times. In other words, since your brain isn't fearing death, how much extra lap time does a player gain because of this.

As for the tire debate, I just drive on whatever the host sets the room to

 

[TexRex]

I wonder how much the virtual world adds to lap times. In other words, since your brain isn't fearing death, how much extra lap time does a player gain because of this.

I've wondered that myself. On the flipside of that coin, there's also the inability to feel what a car's doing and being able to react to it before you actually see it happen that just can't be simulated in a game.

 

[azidahaka]

I always thought that the fear of death doesnt play so much effect since its a matter of notte crossing human boundaries. After all a qualy time and a race time are different but not in different worlds, also crashes arent so common expwcially in qualifyings.

I think that on games you have the advantage of not having g forces against you, and you do not fear to damage a car you would play for.

But we are slower due to lack of car feedback and lower line of sight

 

[ALB123]

This is a wonderful discussion to see how we can stretch more realism out of this game. I'm relatively new to Gran Turismo, having just started playing in December 2013. I will admit I always threw racing brakes and better tires on my cars (in addition to other mods) because I've always been concerned about laptime and how I want to get "good" at GT6 - have absurdly low, unrealistic laptimes. Well, after reading this thread I took out a bone stok BMW M4, downgraded to CM tires and just had an absolute blast for the last 90 minutes on Bathurst. It was like I was in a completely different game.

I think throwing the stickiest tires on cars makes them all feel the same (with other mods, of course). I recently discovered Ridox's Replica Garage and I've been having a blast with those setups. Much thanks, Ridox, for all your hard work.

Some people have stated "Just use whatever you want. Its just a game!" Well, of course it is. That doesn't mean some of us are wrong for wanting a more realistic experience. Like I said, what's the point of having more than 5 cars to choose from if they're all going to drive like they're on rails and the only differences are the top speed because they have varying HP levels? Just like in real life, the tire grip is one of the most important factors in laying down a good lap time. I applaud those who welcome the challenge of lesser grip, more realistic tires.

 

[cjr3559]

I started my CH durability test this afternoon. I'm using a stock NSX '90 with no assists, DFGT in cockpit mode on the Nordschleife with tire wear set to normal, dry conditions.

So far under moderate to brisk driving (9'30" lap times on average), I've got the rear CH's down to 9. This is after 9 laps and an hour and 30 minutes of driving. Fuel is down to half.

Not sure if I can keep up the test all the way until the tires wear out, but I figure it would take me about 3 tanks of fuel and 1000 miles before the tires wear to the point that the car becomes too difficult to drive at speed. So far I figure that even the CH compounds in GT6 have to be softer than any street tires the NSX originally came with.

 

[TexRex]

Not sure if I can keep up the test all the way until the tires wear out, but I figure it would take me about 3 tanks of fuel and 1000 miles before the tires wear to the point that the car becomes too difficult to drive at speed. So far I figure that even the CH compounds in GT6 have to be softer than any street tires the NSX originally came with.

I applaud your efforts. Do you figure tire wear will be consistent as you approach undrivable and did you factor that into your estimate of distance? My experience has taught me that tire wear begets tire wear and the rate of degradation will increase as less grip is available. Also, I'm under the impression that tire wear and fuel consumption (even when set to Normal) are accelerated over what it is in real life and that CH are probably harder compounds than what was offered in real life (I'm thinking CM).

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

CH tire sound about right for stock NSX tire, I built Acura NSX replica that aim real life lap, even on CH, it can still posts quicker times, a few seconds quicker at Laguna Seca.

ACURA NSX '91 Replica ( Real World Setup version )
Ayrton Senna Tribute
Special Build with Real World Alignment ACURA NSX '91
Comfort Hard to Sports Medium​

View attachment 152619
​

CAR : ACURA NSX '91
Tire : Comfort Hard to Sports Medium

Specs
Horsepower:266 HP at 7000 RPM
Torque: 209.7 ft-lb at 5500 RPM
Power Limiter at : 100%
Weight: 1365 kg
Ballast : 123 kg
Ballast Position : 46
Weight Distribution : 42 / 58 as in real life
Performance Points: 433

GT AUTO
NO Oil change
Wheels : Stock
Car Paint : Brilliant Black


Tuning Parts Installed :
Suspension Fully Customizable Kit
Adjustable LSD
Weight Reduction Stage 1



Suspension - KW Variant 3 with ClubSport Springs / Lowered and Street Damper Setup
Front, Rear

Ride Height: 85 80
Spring Rate: 8.00 8.00
Dampers (Compression): 3 2
Dampers (Extension): 4 3
Anti-Roll Bars: 3 2
Camber Angle: 0.3 1.5 ( front camber range 0.3+-0.5, rear camber range 1.5+-0.5 )
Toe Angle: -0.30 0.49 ( front toe out 3.5mm+-1mm, rear toe in 6mm+-1mm )


LSD - Torque Control Differential with factory preload
Initial Torque : 30
Acceleration Sensitivity: 30
Braking Sensitivity: 15

View attachment 152620​

Brake Balance:
7/9 ( personal BB) or for ABS 0 wheel : 7/9, for ABS 1 7/9 or feel free to use your preferred brake balance.

Recommended setting for DS3 user :
Steering sensitivity at +1 or +2, all aids off, except ABS 1 ( if not comfortable with ABS 0 ) with 7/9 brake balance as starting point.


Notes :
I made this special replica to commemorate Ayrton Senna
This time, the car is ACURA NSX '91, the 1st generation ACURA

The car setup is not your typical GT6 tune, I used real world setup alignment, similar to some of my older replica like ADVOX Supra

Suspension uses KW V3 ClubSport Coilover Kit as the stock real life value can't be replicated in GT6, ride height can be lowered 20 to 50mm on the front and 25mm to 55mm at the rear. Damper has been tuned for street. The ARB, Toe and Camber are all based on real life setup of a stock Honda/Acura NSX.

Most people do not know that later generation NSX has lower spring rate at the rear to give more grip and less oversteer. Most coilover kits uses the same arrangement, while KW V3 uses same spring rate. Obviously the real world spring rate works great in GT6.

Real life specs : front camber range 0.3+-0.5, rear camber range 1.5+-0.5; and front toe out 3.5mm+-1mm, rear toe in 6mm+-1mm.

The LSD has been updated using real world setup, Honda Torque Control Differential has high preload.

The weight distribution on the NSX is wrong in GT6, real life NSX has 42/58, so to achieve that, I used some ballast and weight reduction.

Don't expect this car to be quick, it's meant to be a what if the car has real world stock setup in GT6, something that never existed in GT6

To drive the NSX, you will need some real world driving approach, steer like you would in a real car, brake and gas like you would in your own car on the road

I tuned and tested the car at Ascari, Bathurst, Spa, Laguna Seca, Streets of Willow and Tsukuba.

To test if the GT6 car is close to real world performance, I replicated the lap times posted by Acura NSX at Laguna Seca and Streets of Willow. The 3.2 ACURA NSX 2004 - 286HP/1424+kg ( only data I could find ) posted 1:32.59 at Streets of Willow Springs and 1:54.74 at Mazda Laguna Seca Raceway. The '91 3.0 Acura NSX ( 266HP/1365kg ) can get close/beat the time with comfort hard , the real ACURA NSX '91 comes from factory with Yokohama A-022, so it's comparable to CH tire in GT6. I posted 1:32.1xx at Streets of Willow Springs and 1:54.8xx at Laguna Seca on 1st warm up lap ( with H shifter and clutch, it would be better )

The car is a joy to drive, feels like what a real stock NSX would drive It made GT6 ACURA NSX more sim like, well almost like on PC, not so easy to throw around

UPDATE : New Coilover set as the real stock spring rate is not available to be replicated.

ENJOY

View attachment 151749 ​

If someone bring a NSX with stock street tire on a track, then drive hard ( real hard ) like a pro driver hot lapping, the tires could last one track weekend ( 150 miles ) and still can do probably a few track weekend with relatively enough grip - if the driver is smooth with the brake and gas , the tire wear would be similar to 4 - 6 times the distance when driven on the street ( close to 1000 miles street wear ). So, probably about 500 miles of track driving on street tire is not that bad, the last few of 500 would be slippery

 

[cjr3559]

I applaud your efforts. Do you figure tire wear will be consistent as you approach undrivable and did you factor that into your estimate of distance? My experience has taught me that tire wear begets tire wear and the rate of degradation will increase as less grip is available. Also, I'm under the impression that tire wear and fuel consumption (even when set to Normal) are accelerated over what it is in real life and that CH are probably harder compounds than what was offered in real life (I'm thinking CM).

I think the rate of wear will increase the further the run, but I also anticipate my lap times drastically increasing in order to keep the car on the road.

The fuel consumption seems about right, though. I'm definitely no expert, but around 300 miles from a tank is probably about right for the NSX. Which reminds me, I probably should look up the specs for the NSX (tank capacity, MPG).

 

[MidFieldMaven]

The '07 Civic Type R ran a 2:35.2 according to this site, but it doesn't mention tire compound: http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/suzuka.html

Best I did, with SH tires and tire wear off/fuel consumption off, is 2:28.4



I'm pretty sure the car came with CS tires, though. Of all the cars on that site that are also in GT6 that I've tested (all of them), this CTR is the closest to reality.

 

[TexRex]

Of all the cars on that site that are also in GT6 that I've tested (all of them), this CTR is the closest to reality.

I had to do a double-take there. When I think CTR, I think Gruppe C Turbo Ruf.

 

[cjr3559]

So much for the experiment. Once I finally ran out of fuel after 18 laps, I was forced to change my tires when pitting. So basically I ran the rears down to 9 and the fronts stayed at 10, though if I was able to continue on the same set they would have degraded to 8's in the rear anyway.

 

[TexRex]

So much for the experiment. Once I finally ran out of fuel after 18 laps, I was forced to change my tires when pitting. So basically I ran the rears down to 9 and the fronts stayed at 10, though if I was able to continue on the same set they would have degraded to 8's in the rear anyway.

I actually popped in at one point and put down a couple of laps in a [Ruf] CTR but you appeared to be idle and I had no idea how long or for how long so I left.

 

[cjr3559]

I actually popped in at one point and put down a couple of laps in a [Ruf] CTR but you appeared to be idle and I had no idea how long or for how long so I left.

Yep, saw that you popped in. 👍

 

[GregOr1971]

Some time ago I was curious how my virtual lap times compare to real world ,so I have done laptime test on Nurburgring . Of course laptime test it is nowhere accurate , because you can't take into account all the different variables real life brings (time,temperature,wind ...) , but in basic it can show that something is wrong , if times are faster than those of some pro factory driver


results:

Laps are done with stock cars , no oil change etc... and this is maximum I can do on a good day (+/- second), no assist , bumper cam , DFGT , ffb on 3 , clean run .

Based on laptimes , either I am faster than those pro drivers (less likely) or tires that come by default (mostly SH) have too much grip for given cars .
So, for "optimum experience*" in career mode or online trackdays , I mostly use 2 grades lower tires than those standard equiped. Makes AI less slow , cars feels soo much more "alive" , ,but you have to be carefull with throotle input ,which I think is one of the thrills of "real world" experience with high hp cars , unless you use electronic assist .

EDIT * I know AI uses top tires for given event , but somehow doesn't have that cornering speed/after turn acceleration as player can do with the same grade tires. Lowering tires few grades or in general using tires on which you can run IRL lap record times (CTR=CM in my case) , makes player slower in corners and in acceleration ,so hence AI suddenly doesn't feel fast . Makes a difference in races ,when I chase 8th place AI instead being first one after a lap or two when equipped with same tires as AI.

EDIT2: Maybe part of the "too fast compared to IRL" problem (I wasn't think of before) , is also that most people use DS3 or sequential gearbox on DFGT, where shifting gears always take same 0,2 sec or so , but if you use wheel with normal gearbox and clutch (like older cars have) you'll be much slower with gear shifing > maybe 0,5 sec at best per shift. That alone can make 3 seconds a difference between no clutch/clutch , when shifting gears ie.10 times . On long tracks like NS , where you do , lets say 60 gearshifts , that would make massive +18 seconds.

 

[vr6cas]

Some time ago I was curious how my virtual lap times compare to real world ,so I have done laptime test on Nurburgring . Of course laptime test it is nowhere accurate , because you can't take into account all the different variables real life brings (time,temperature,wind ...) , but in basic it can show that something is wrong , if times are faster than those of some pro factory driver


results:


View attachment 178091



Laps are done with stock cars , no oil change etc... and this is maximum I can do on a good day (+/- second), no assist , bumper cam , DFGT , ffb on 3 , clean run .

Based on laptimes , either I am faster than those pro drivers (less likely) or tires that come by default (mostly SH) have too much grip for given cars .
So, for "optimum experience™" in career mode or online trackdays , I mostly use 2 grades lower tires than those standard equiped. Makes AI less slow , cars feels soo much more "alive" , ,but you have to be carefull with throotle input ,which I think is one of the thrills of "real world" experience with high hp cars , unless you use electronic assist .

PS: monster/tuned cars (gtrs,supras ... ) with more than 700-800hp should be practicaly undriveable without using any kind of electronic assist. In real world they are , but in GT you can mostly just slap RH-RS and pronto .

This is basically what I said in my previous post. For stock cars, anything from civics to supercars comfort tires are the real deal in GT6. I downgrade all my stock cars to comforts, even tuned high horsepower ones, like you said the game/car becomes alive and the drive is way more realistic. I don't know why cars come with sport tires in the first place, all street cars should come with comforts, sports should be the "upgrade" tire. I do the same with comparing lap times and I get the most realistic results on comfort tires and always come right on the money or a second or two slower. If your seconds faster you know the tire has to much grip.

And your so right about the A.I. A lot of the people complaining about the A.I. are probably the ones taking a car and putting the most grip tire and the most pp that is allowed then beating the A.I. then saying the A.I. is slow. To those people, run a slightly lower pp and use the real tires (cm-cs) and you will look at them totally different and you will learn to drive better. And once you learn how to use and drive on comfort tires, go back and put sports and then racing tires on and I guarantee you will see how much grip those tires have.

 

[ALB123]

I've done similar testing. Take real world Nurburgring lap times of cars that I can duplicate in GT6 and try to equal or best that time in the game. Let it be known that I am probably no where near the level of driver that some of you reading this thread are. Having said that, usings any compound stickier than SH will almost guarantee that with a good, clean lap with no mistakes, my lap time will beat the published "official" lap time found on websites like fastestlaps.com or Wikipedia.

I spent the entire evening running with CS on sports cars and occasionally SH on Supercars, plus I kept the cars stock - no modifications to suspension or braking. This translates into a much more realistic experience, for me, at least. While I am not trying to take this thread off-topic, I think another discussion for another day would be the over dependence on using Racing Brakes with every car. Again, there is a time and place for such equipment, but I think my first six months playing GT6 have been tarnished by the fact that I would slap on better tires, racing brakes and a stiffer suspension the second I bought any new car - missing out on the chance to experience each car's true individual characteristics. And that was the entire point of me getting Gran Turismo in the first place! To drive particular cars as they supposedly exist in real life...

 

[vr6cas]

I've done similar testing. Take real world Nurburgring lap times of cars that I can duplicate in GT6 and try to equal or best that time in the game. Let it be known that I am probably no where near the level of driver that some of you reading this thread are. Having said that, usings any compound stickier than SH will almost guarantee that with a good, clean lap with no mistakes, my lap time will beat the published "official" lap time found on websites like fastestlaps.com or Wikipedia.

I spent the entire evening running with CS on sports cars and occasionally SH on Supercars, plus I kept the cars stock - no modifications to suspension or braking. This translates into a much more realistic experience, for me, at least. While I am not trying to take this thread off-topic, I think another discussion for another day would be the over dependence on using Racing Brakes with every car. Again, there is a time and place for such equipment, but I think my first six months playing GT6 have been tarnished by the fact that I would slap on better tires, racing brakes and a stiffer suspension the second I bought any new car - missing out on the chance to experience each car's true individual characteristics. And that was the entire point of me getting Gran Turismo in the first place! To drive particular cars as they supposedly exist in real life...

Glad your finding out and learning what Gran Turismo is really all about. You know, I am 91% complete on my career in GT6 and I did that without buying one single upgrade or oil change to my cars, I used all stock cars and downgraded my tires to comfort tires and it was very challenging at times and I'm pretty fast and a veteran of GT. And I challenge you all to go back and do some career races with stock cars on comforts.

A lot of players make the same mistake you did, buy a car, go throw all these parts on it and beat the race with an upgraded car on ss tires and say the A.I. is slow or that the car doesn't handle. They are doing it wrong.
And the racing brakes thing, a lot of the cars come with decent brakes stock, either brembos or cross drilled or slotted rotors, I don't put racing brakes on premium cars because to me it looks like a downgrade on most cars, now the standards that's a different story because most of the standards brakes look like crap so racing brakes for them is an upgrade.

 

[ALB123]

Glad your finding out and learning what Gran Turismo is really all about. You know, I am 91% complete on my career in GT6 and I did that without buying one single upgrade or oil change to my cars, I used all stock cars and downgraded my tires to comfort tires and it was very challenging at times and I'm pretty fast and a veteran of GT. And I challenge you all to go back and do some career races with stock cars on comforts.

A lot of players make the same mistake you did, buy a car, go throw all these parts on it and beat the race with an upgraded car on ss tires and say the A.I. is slow or that the car doesn't handle. They are doing it wrong.
And the racing brakes thing, a lot of the cars come with decent brakes stock, either brembos or cross drilled or slotted rotors, I don't put racing brakes on premium cars because to me it looks like a downgrade on most cars, now the standards that's a different story because most of the standards brakes look like crap so racing brakes for them is an upgrade.

Yeah. I got so caught up in seeing the leader board times in those Seasonal Events back in December and thought to myself, "Wow! Your time is way off. If you want to compete and enjoy this game you better max everything out and hold on and learn to control your rocketship." Now, I'm not trying to bash anyone who prefers to set 3 minute Nurburgring lap times. If that's your idea of fun, have at it. I just know that I belong in a different online room because we are trying to get different things from the game.

 

[TexRex]

Tried the Stielow Engineering Red Devil on Comfort Hard tires on the Nordschleife--probably a bit excessive but they shine a light on some issues, such as the car's heavy understeer. Without anti-lock brakes, I wasn't able to drive it at all with the default brake balance values and had take drastic measures in the form of 4 in the front and 7 in the rear. The drawback to that is the car's ridiculous amount of torque meant a bit more wear on the rear and the heavy rear brake bias could very easily spell trouble down the road.

 

[RedBaron]

I think PD should equip tires with appropriate factory grip on all cars to wear that "Real driving simulator" badge proudly without shame.

Back in GT4 there wasn't even oversteer present without comfort tyres.

This is an excellent topic. I agree PD should provide a factory tire recommendation.