Do you believe in God?

[Dotini]

Some say the Book of Enoch is extensively and explicitly depicting alien interactions with humans, naming them as Watchers.

Islamic literature including the Koran accepts the Djinn (genie) as a non-human being with a will of its own, a being made of smokeless fire (plasma?). That's alien.

 

[Imari]

Not necessarily- some questions I and other "theists" don't have answers to.

You'll notice that I said "lean towards" and "probably".

I didn't say that theists will come up with answers to any random question, but there are some that they obviously will make up an answer for. Likewise, atheists are not immune to just making 🤬 up, but there are whole categories of stuff that by definition of being atheists they will not make up an answer for.

All other things being equal, theists are more likely to simply make up the answer to a question than atheists, because of the category of "religious questions".

Take the question of extraterrestrial life for example- you never see religions taking an official stance on it. Personally, I don't know whether or not there are aliens, as I'm not led to believe there are because the Bible never addresses the matter.

Not the best example.

You never see Christianity taking an official stance on aliens (actually, I'm sure someone somewhere has but I agree with your statement in generality), but there are absolutely religions that are strongly affiliated with aliens. UFO cults, for starters.

I believe it was written by Moses under guidance from God. There aren't any primary sources I can cite, as it is something I merely believe.

So why bother asking what other people believe? So that you can both argue your belief is better than the other?

Seems to me like a fine way to start an argument.

What did you want to learn from your question, and maybe we can get somewhere with it.

 

[huskeR32]

An open question to any atheists or agnostics: What do you believe is the origin of Pentateuch?

I'll echo what's already been said - I don't think it's possible for anybody to ever know who wrote them. And that's fine.

In other words, where did the belief in the God of Abraham come from?

I suspect from the same place all religions spring from - man's eternal desire to answer existential questions, and to believe that death isn't the end of it all.

Yet the Pentateuch isn't present in Zoroastrianism- do you believe that someone was simply inspired by Zoroastrianism...

Or maybe inspired by somebody who was inspired by Zoroastrianism. Or maybe they were inspired by the same basic human desires that inspire most spiritual feelings. Who knows?

...and decided to make up their own religion and wrote the first few books of the Old Testament to use as text?

We have a well-documented case of that happening right here in America within the last 200 years, and it's become* the fastest-growing religion on Earth. Why do you think it couldn't have happened many other times in many other places in the past?

Not necessarily- some questions I and other "theists" don't have answers to.

Out of curiosity, why did you put "theists" in quotes like that?


*According to some sources, at least.

 

[Scaff]

An open question to any atheists or agnostics: What do you believe is the origin of Pentateuch? (The first five books of the Bible, which Christians and Jews believe were written by Moses through God's guidance). In other words, where did the belief in the God of Abraham come from?

The origins of Judaism (and therefore Christianity and later Islam) are a mixture of Zoroastrianism (as mentioned), Canannite and Mesopotamian (in particular the Epic of Gilgamesh is of interest given that it has the entire flood myth well before the OT).

The vast majority of the OT myth have origins in these religions, the remainder being likely to be be local flavour and contemporary additions to appeal to the target audience of the day. For a book of divine revelation both the OT and NT contain a rather large amount of plagiarism!

 

[JMoney]

We have a well-documented case of that happening right here in America within the last 200 years, and it's become* the fastest-growing religion on Earth. Why do you think it couldn't have happened many other times in many other places in the past?

I don't, however Mormonism is an alteration of Christianity. Although it operates separately from other Christians and the two groups generally don't affiliate with one another, Mormonism is a subtype of Christianity, all but one of it's books are shared with other Christians. It wouldn't be that hard to base a new belief on another belief. While Christianity and Zoroastrianism have similar stories, the stories aren't exactly the same. If someone wrote the Pentateuch from scratch, it would be much different from writing the Book of Mormon.

Out of curiosity, why did you put "theists" in quotes like that?

Because I consider myself a Christian, separate from other religions who believe in different gods.

 

[Famine]

Scientology?

And Raelism - and, a bit kookier, The Nation of Islam.

 

[Scaff]

While Christianity and Zoroastrianism have similar stories, the stories aren't exactly the same.

Close enough that you would lose a plagiarism case.
http://listverse.com/2013/06/30/ten-influences-on-the-bible/

Even much of Jesus's claimed uniqe traits are lifted wholesale from older religions:
http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/

That's not to say that I believe any of these to be true either, ut you will note that these common themes have been repeated over and over again across different faiths. Its basically a set trope that is used to form the core of a multitude of belief systems.

If someone wrote the Pentateuch from scratch, it would be much different from writing the Book of Mormon.

Why?

Both add a new twist on an existing faith and form a new sub-branch of that religion.

Because I consider myself a Christian, separate from other religions who believe in different gods.

Question. What makes yours right and the others wrong?

 

[JMoney]

Question. What makes yours right and the others wrong?

Christianity is simply what I believe in, and there are dozens, if not hundreds of Bible verses that state God (being the God of Abraham), is the one true God. I understand how that might not sound like a real reason to anyone who isn't a Christian. I don't need scientific or historical proof to believe in God. The values of Christianity are something I want to follow, not only to please God but because I believe living by those values makes me a better person. I see the values, the morals, in other religions (or lack thereof in atheism) and I disagree with them. That's why I'm a Christian.

 

[gokartman78]

I see the values, the morals, in other religions (or lack thereof in atheism) and I disagree with them. That's why I'm a Christian.

This part, are you saying atheists don't have morals?

 

[JMoney]

This part, are you saying atheists don't have morals?

Atheists can have personal morals, yes, but not defined morals. No set of rules to follow, as most religions have. Atheists don't have to worry about judgment from a supreme being for being immoral.

 

[Daniel]

Atheists can have personal morals, yes, but not defined morals. No set of rules to follow, as most religions have. Atheists don't have to worry about judgment from a supreme being for being immoral.

Nobody has strictly defined morals, really. It's society which define morals, and the morals which define society. Otherwise each and every Christian, Muslim or Jew would have the exact same morals (which obviously isn't the case). It's also the reason why one culture has different customs, traditions and morals than another culture.

 

[Imari]

Atheists can have personal morals, yes, but not defined morals. No set of rules to follow, as most religions have. Atheists don't have to worry about judgment from a supreme being for being immoral.

Why should I need the threat of the Sky Daddy punishing me to be a good person? Is it not enough for me to want a stable and happy community, where people can live their lives in peace and comfort?

No defined morals, my entire arse. What do you think cultures and societies are made of? Every group has acceptable and unacceptable behaviours, just like Christianity does. Religions are not special in that regard. The difference is that a small town doesn't threaten it's inhabitants with eternal torture if they screw up.

 

[Joel]

Atheists can have personal morals, yes, but not defined morals. No set of rules to follow, as most religions have. Atheists don't have to worry about judgment from a supreme being for being immoral.

I'd encourage you to read through some of the Human Rights thread if you don't think atheist morality can be clearly defined.

I don't have to worry about judgment from a supreme being because I have my own judgment. I'm an adult human being with empathy, with the mental capacity to recognize the concept and reciprocity of rights, and to act accordingly. What scares me is the idea that there's people out there who don't recognize that concept and only keep in line because they're afraid of the judgment of a God's moral code which isn't proven to be anything more than another rulebook that humans made.

To paraphrase Penn Jilette, I'm an atheist and I rape and murder people as often as I want. And the amount of rape or murder I want to commit is zero.

 

[Aphelion]

I have no doubt in my mind weather or not Jesus lived, but he was probably just an extreemly nice person or something, and people embelished his story untill it got to the point that it is at. As for god, i can't really say, but all i know is that is universe is complete BS if it happened by completely random occurence. So, either god happened, or we live in a simulation. Or this universe is just rediculously lucky.

 

[Scaff]

Atheists can have personal morals, yes, but not defined morals. No set of rules to follow, as most religions have. Atheists don't have to worry about judgment from a supreme being for being immoral.

So you don't eat prawns and you stone homosexuals to death (along with rape victims who don't scream loud enough).

Those are part of your set of rules.

Christians cherry pick as much as any group, so that raises the question of why you ignore the word of God in some areas but uphold them in other area's?

If you truly worried about judgement you would be living these rules to a fundamental level.

 

[homeforsummer]

all i know is that is universe is complete BS if it happened by completely random occurence. So, either god happened, or we live in a simulation. Or this universe is just rediculously lucky.

"I don't understand something, therefore God did it".

Gosh, never seen that assumption before in this thread...

 

[Aphelion]

"I don't understand something, therefore God did it".

Gosh, never seen that assumption before in this thread...

 

[Imari]

As for god, i can't really say, but all i know is that is universe is complete BS if it happened by completely random occurence. So, either god happened, or we live in a simulation. Or this universe is just rediculously lucky.

Your last sentence totally undermines everything else. First you state that it's BS if it happens randomly, then you admit that actually that might just have occurred.

Read up on the anthropic principle. Also, statistics in general. It may be ridiculous odds for any one person to win the lottery, but if enough people play then someone winning becomes much more reasonable. And consider that we have absolutely no basis for determining what factors make a universe more or less likely to occur by random chance, so to attempt to say that ours happening is a statistical freak seems like a bit of a reach. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't.

We really have no idea what goes on outside our universe, or before it either (if there was a before). Or in most of it right now, for that matter.

 

[mistersafeway]

Atheists can have personal morals, yes, but not defined morals. No set of rules to follow, as most religions have. Atheists don't have to worry about judgment from a supreme being for being immoral.

I've said it before and I get a sneaking suspicion this won't be the last time: anyone who needs the threat of a god's punishment to act decently isn't a very good person. Also, using a 1-3,000 year old book to tell you what is "good" means you're either not good because you're following said book (they all advocate violence) or ignoring huge amounts of [name of god]'s immutable word. So, which are you, a bad person who needs a god threatening you or a "bad" christian?

I have no doubt in my mind weather or not Jesus lived, but he was probably just an extreemly nice person or something, and people embelished his story untill it got to the point that it is at. As for god, i can't really say, but all i know is that is universe is complete BS if it happened by completely random occurence. So, either god happened, or we live in a simulation. Or this universe is just rediculously lucky.

Then you're either a christian or woefully misinformed. I could post a link about how everything could exist without intervention but I'd just be referencing the same website which is a) possibly irritating, b) easy to find once there and c) the site is heavy on swearing in places, probably not good to link to too often. Just thought, d) Creation vs. Evolution is a more appropriate thread anyway.

 

[Aphelion]

Your last sentence totally undermines everything else. First you state that it's BS if it happens randomly, then you admit that actually that might just have occurred.

Read up on the anthropic principle. Also, statistics in general. It may be ridiculous odds for any one person to win the lottery, but if enough people play then someone winning becomes much more reasonable. And consider that we have absolutely no basis for determining what factors make a universe more or less likely to occur by random chance, so to attempt to say that ours happening is a statistical freak seems like a bit of a reach. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't.

We really have no idea what goes on outside our universe, or before it either (if there was a before). Or in most of it right now, for that matter.

Yeah, i just realised how much i don't make sense sometimes. Sorry about that, i have no clue why i actually wrote why i did.

Then you're either a christian or woefully misinformed. I could post a link about how everything could exist without intervention but I'd just be referencing the same website which is a) possibly irritating, b) easy to find once there and c) the site is heavy on swearing in places, probably not good to link to too often. Just thought, d) Creation vs. Evolution is a more appropriate thread anyway.

yes, i am a christian. But not really, i will eplain in a second. But that isn't my point. My point is that i think jesus was just some regular, realy nice guy who new a couple of people, and those people wrote about him somewhere, and he somehow became that virgin born miriacle guy we all know about now.

But yes, now i see that, if no other doccuments were made of him, its a little odd.

And, i might be a christian, but i am an open minded, basically-not-an-actual-christian christian. So basically, i don't trust anything that was written in the bible, but i do belive in a god. I only call myself a christian because... um, well i don't know why actually. I guess peers?

 

[Imari]

There's a bit of a thing about atheists being adaptable as well.

Say an atheist makes some moral choice, but upon reflection by the wider community afterwards it's deemed to have been the wrong call. The atheist can explain why he made that choice at the time and maybe other people can at least understand even if they don't agree. And other people can explain to the atheist why what they did wasn't the best choice, and the atheist can agree to change his behaviour in the future.

Say a theist is faced with the same moral choice, and makes the same wrong call. Upon reflection by the wider community afterwards it's again deemed to have been wrong. But the only explanation the theist can provide is "because book", because presumably their moral choices are largely guided by their religious text/rules. And even if the theist agrees that it was the wrong choice, they're not really free to change their behaviour without abandoning what is probably their entire circle of friends and family. That's a pretty strong incentive not to make the correct choice, even when it's staring you in the face.

I made the theist part as general as I can, because although it would probably be clearer if I just picked a random religion and said "Say a Muslim is faced with the same moral choice...", I don't want to distract people from the actual point by quibbling over the choice of religion in the example.

If you want a concrete example, take the gay thing. An atheist might be freaked out by gays and be really anti-homosexuals, but upon reflection and communication they're free to change if they so wish. A fundamentalist might be initially the same, but even if they change their mind on reflection and communication they're not free to change their mind on that one matter without also changing what is probably a big part of the rest of their lives. Not being anti-gay is probably going to entail them not being a fundamentalist any more.

There's a big pressure to conform instead of finding your own way. Nobody is expected to get it all right the first time, but I think having a system in place that actively discourages people from changing their behaviour when shown the error of their ways is not that cool.

 

[JMoney]

I said "Athiests can have personal morals", and everybody quoted that sentence but everyone ignored it. I'm well aware athiests can have morals and can be "good people". The difference is Christians and other religious people have a book to abide by as well as a church to guide them.

It's exhausting trying to debate half a dozen people who completely ignore parts of what you say.

@Scaff, when's the last time you saw a Christian stone a gay person or a rape victim? When?

 

[Joel]

I said "Athiests can have personal morals", and everybody quoted that sentence but everyone ignored it. I'm well aware athiests can have morals and can be "good people". The difference is Christians and other religious people have a book to abide by as well as a church to guide them.

So what? That doesn't mean there aren't other external moral codes people can follow, nor does it mean morality can't be defined by groups or people outside the church. You've already said atheists can have personal morality, why is it so hard to believe groups of people (atheist or not) can codify or create their own moral codes?

There's no proof that your moral code is divine. There's no proof the Quran was divinely granted. There's no proof the Book of Mormon is divine. All we can prove is that they're moral codes that are based on books written by people, followed by people, and kept in check by people. I fully understand you have faith in Christianity, but when you try to claim the Bible is a defined moral code it gets circular. the Bible is a defined moral code because it was granted by God, and we know it was granted by God because it's in the Bible, which is a divine moral code granted by God...

@Scaff, when's the last time you saw a Christian stone a gay person or a rape victim? When?

Exactly. The point was that Christians in the 21st century ignore that part along with eating shrimp being forbidden for seemingly arbitrary reasons. If the moral code of the Bible is truly an ironclad and just set of rules, those things should be just as acceptable in 2014 as they were when it was written. Especially when in this very thread you're speaking of the defined morality of the church as a good thing, with the bible and the church community to keep people in check.

Do you think it's OK to stone rape victims who didn't scream loud enough? Do you wear clothes made from synthetic fabrics? Do you think it's OK to eat shrimp and lobster? Why or why not?

 

[DK]

Church-guided "morality" can have horrible results, just take a look at my country's history and the repression we suffered under the iron fist of Catholic Church. We were pretty much like Franco's Spain with far worse weather and a thin veneer of democracy.

 

[JMoney]

Do you think it's OK to stone rape victims who didn't scream loud enough? Do you wear clothes made from synthetic fabrics? Do you think it's OK to eat shrimp and lobster? Why or why not?

I'm a Christian. Jesus overruled the Old Testament laws. Paul and Ignatius warned against living according to Jewish laws. What do you think?

 

[Scaff]

I'm a Christian. Jesus overruled the Old Testament laws. Paul and Ignatius warned against living according to Jewish laws. What do you think?

Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

Oh and please remove all evidence of the ten commandments from places of worship with immediate effect if what you claim is true.

Cherry picking once again.

 

[JMoney]

It's impossible to gain any sort of favorable outcome when you're debating a group of people that will ignore half of what you say and then respond with a passage from your own book in order to make their argument appear stronger, and then repeatedly accuse you of cherry picking. I tried to have a sensible debate on this thread, for once, by asking a simple question. Not sure why I expected that to work. I'm going to stop letting you make me look like a fool and pray for you instead. God is wiser than any of us, and I hope my failed attempts at apologetics won't keep you from seeing the light.

 

[Dennisch]

God is wiser than any of us

Highly debatable.

 

[Scaff]

It's impossible to gain any sort of favorable outcome when you're debating a group of people that will ignore half of what you say and then respond with a passage from your own book in order to make their argument appear stronger, and then repeatedly accuse you of cherry picking. I tried to have a sensible debate on this thread, for once, by asking a simple question. Not sure why I expected that to work. I'm going to stop letting you make me look like a fool and pray for you instead. God is wiser than any of us, and I hope my failed attempts at apologetics won't keep you from seeing the light.

Did Jesus not say that then?

Did he not then say "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished." ?

Do Paul and Ignatius trump Jesus when it comes to biblical canon?

Do Christian Churches throughout the world not have the Ten Commandments in them (everyone I have been in has)?

It would seem that the Christian faith is quite happy to use the laws of the OT when it wants, and ignore the bits that seem, well a bit mental (and even then some still like the mental bits - see below).

Oh and I've not ignored half of what you have said, you however have ignored two thirds of my post and only responded to the part you wanted to answer, why would that be? Did the information on the pre-Abrehamic faiths seem a little too close to the OT and NT verses to be coincidental?


Finally in regard to Christians kills homesexuals and the issue of rape victims. You seem to be rather blinkered in regard to Uganda's (a Christian country) anti-homosexual bill that would have resulted in the death sentence for LBGT people. A bill that was supported and funded heavily by US Christian evangelical groups; and lets not forget the Christina pastor who recently called for summary execution of homosexuals:
http://www.christianpost.com/news/b...believe-every-word-says-arizona-pastor-99583/ (odd that he's citing the bits you claim no longer apply).

As far as rape victims go the church has often treated victims as either at fault or in the case of the baby if pregnancy has resulted totally ignored the women's rights. Here's a fun fact the Vatican has excommunicated more rape victims for having abortions that it has priests for sexual assault (only 1 priest has ever been excommunicated for that).

 

[JMoney]

As far as rape victims go the church has often treated victims as either at fault or in the case of the baby if pregnancy has resulted totally ignored the women's rights. Here's a fun fact the Vatican has excommunicated more rape victims for having abortions that it has priests for sexual assault (only 1 priest has ever been excommunicated for that).

If you want to discuss abortion, there's another thread for that.